Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[Akatosh]

Solar technology is reaching a parity for price and performance that could eventually make it feasible for such an idea. Just because current silicon tech is not up to standards for conventional energy sources doesn't mean that most of the track should be energy-subsidized by the sun, arguably Arizona's largest resource.

Even if Solar power did not completely cover the energy costs of the line for both directions, it would employ thousands of people, and boost Arizona's solar sector, which needs to grow anyway.

Even if 25-50% was Solar powered, it would greatly reduce overhead costs for the line, reducing fare requirements, perhaps. Though I am not sure what is factored into fares, whether it is the distance, or "just charge enough to cover costs".

But I still wholly support any proposal that utilizes energy from the sun, wind, or geothermal.

[oliveurban]

I like it. Whatever it takes to get people seriously thinking about high-speed rail in this state, the better.

[CANUC]

I like the idea of high speed rail. The illustration is cheesy and cheep, so not much hope theirs serious people behind. But I question the need. Maybe I'm missing something but what is the real business application, whether tourism or something else, that would warrant any kind of rail connection between Phoenix and Tucson? Is there really that much business interaction between the cities to produce a need for rail?

[combusean]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

Finally...elevated? Really? No wonder it would cost so much money. I mean, I get the need for route priority and not having some coyote walking on the tracks, but the idea that you would have four tracks, with possibly two trains running at once, elevated, going somewhere between 116mph and 220mph - sounds terrifying. It would be like that scene in Batman where the EL comes off the track and crashes through the city.

"Terrifying?" Did you become a Biltmore NIMBY last night? WILL PEOPLE DIE?!

edit, to actually make this a constructive conversation and not be a dick.

There's simply no way you can run the train at over 60mph inside the city. Even that seems fast. Once you hit Chandler or Marana, your speed would drop off. So for about 70miles, you could go 220mph, which isn't bad, but I don't think you could do the trip in 30minutes.

The purpose of elevating it is to run that fast. The faster the train goes the more it needs to be separated from grade. Elevating it with express tracks is a "pipe dream" but is worth supporting. It is a statewide system in itself that might put us a few years AHEAD of the curve for transportation for once.

If their estimates are good, the ROW comes from the state or UP along the existing lines there's no reason it can't be done. I would gladly pay a big sales and property tax to connect the nodes of this state by something other than the car.

Another edit: Their estimates pass my first ballpark. $300 million a mile should cover this if the ROW is free which isn't out of the question given the transport corridors that already exist.

$200 million is about what elevated urban heavy rail goes for, add another $100 million for the fancy stuff. Who knows, the fact that some part of it is self powered should also reduce their need for substation infrastructure and if it has transmission capacity APS would be wise to jump on it as well.

[combusean]

And it's also worth noting that the company that would be one of the best candidates for the solar panels themselves would be First Solar, and they're headquartered here.

That this could also serve as a demonstration project for large scale solar corridors could get even the Department of Energy involved.

[glynnjamin]

Is there such a thing as elevated high speed rail? As far as I know, the only HSR tracks are on the ground. Seems to me there is a reason for this and it is safety.

The reason I say that the train would have to slow down in the city is because of turns - not because of speed limits or something. There is no way to do a straight route from Chandler to Union Station without making a few turns that would all be within 5-10 miles of each other. The train can't make turns at 220mph.

I guess I forgot to say that I thought the premise of the idea was great and that I would love to see it happen. I think that scaling the project back to ONE track and a train that leaves every 2 hours (shuttling back and forth) is a better way to go. They should also look at adding those wind turbine things (like they want to put on the freeway) to power the train along with the solar.

[combusean]

If it uses the UP mainline between here and Tucson by way of Florence and Queen Creak, it comes in at a diagonal and turns to the section between Broadway and Apache at a 45 degree angle. Then from there it's 2 90 degree curves to Union Station in Tempe proper. Not too bad.

Elevated HSR has to exist--I'm 99% sure I've seen pictures of corridors in Europe where the train is on a concreted bed supported by pillars because there isn't much ground in some of the mountain passes these rail corridors exist.

Scaling back the project would just make it lame and my support for it would start to thin. One track is just not enough--two at the very least with room to expand. I think once you start building the pillars going that much further to support more tracks becomes trivial. And it's not going to be remotely fast unless it has substantial grade separation.

[PhxPavilion]

I don't see the need for something like this between Phoenix and Tucson, it strikes me as a waste of money. Maybe between Phoenix and Las Vegas, with stops along the way at Flagstaff and the Grand Canyon? Or between Phoenix and San Diego.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by PhxPavilion

I don't see the need for something like this between Phoenix and Tucson, it strikes me as a waste of money. Maybe between Phoenix and Las Vegas, with stops along the way at Flagstaff and the Grand Canyon? Or between Phoenix and San Diego.

While their may not be a need for it between Phoenix and Tucson right now (debatable) part of building infrastructure is planning ahead. Phoenix and Tucson are both growing quickly and will continue to in the long run (even if we have a little blip of slow down in the short term) and I could certainly see it being a need in the future. Also a line that eventually runs from the Mexican boarder to the Grand Canyon would be huge for our large tourism industry.

[NIXPHX77]

PHX31 has it right from what i understand.

if we want this to happen, then based on the Fed's criteria, it has to go down I-10. and costs will be much lower as the freeway was designed when built with that plan in mind (mass transit down its median.)

now if they could only figure out what to do w/ that station under Central.
i hate seeing it unused. and related, I-10 really needs to be "finished" betw. I-17 and SR-51. that wide, dirt median needs something done to it re: function and aesthetics.

[Sonoran_Dweller]

The Obama visit for the ASU Graduation is going to effect METRO and buses for several hours:

http://www.tempe.gov/streetclosures/...1-bee9461afff4

[HooverDam]

So someone started a Facebook group promoting HSR in Phoenix:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=80151946477

Not that joining a Facebook group necessarily gets anything accomplished, but it made me feel good either way.

I was looking at Ye Olde Google Maps, trying to figure out a North-South HSR that would involve Phoenix, does this make any sense or is it retarded?

(Hermosillo)
Tucson
Phoenix
Flagstaff
Grand Canyon Nat'l Park
Las Vegas
St George
Salt Lake City
Ogden
Pocatello
Yellowstone Nat'l Park
Helena
Missoula
Glacier Nat'l Park
(Calgary)
(Edmonton)

Obviously with the sparse population in the Northern Cities it wouldn't be a super high priority line, the Tucson-LV core would be most important. However with National Parks that attract about 6.7 million visitors a year along the line, perhaps that would make up for the lack of major cities. Plus both Calgary (1.16M) and Edmonton (1M) are large as Canadian cities go.

[Tempe_Duck]

Originally Posted by Sonoran_Dweller

The Obama visit for the ASU Graduation is going to effect METRO and buses for several hours:

http://www.tempe.gov/streetclosures/...1-bee9461afff4

Has anyone heard anything about the airport. I know at least one if not both of the southern runways have their approach slope right over and near the stadium. Will they divert planes to the West side of the airport or just close it down while he is here?

[mwadswor]

What a pain in the ass. Why would they close the light rail right where it's most useful for those trying to get to the stadium from the east end of the line (like me)? Is it an issue of how close the line comes to where Obama will be standing? There's enough concrete in the south end of that stadium that someone'd have to blow off a nuke to risk hurting him or anyone in the stadium, which they could still do from either the rural/university or 5th/college station.

Also, I don't see it on the valley metro website. Does anyone know if the Orbits will be affected?

[NIXPHX77]

if you're attending the graduation like i am and taking Metro, i think we will be OK. it says service stops at 6 pm westbound at university/rural, but folks are supposed to be lined up by 4:30 to get in. so, i don't think this will affect our arrival. i plan to take metro from mesa at about 3:30 in a group of six, so i hope this works. but why 9:30 pm to re-open the segment? does the graduation go for 2-1/2 hours? the event (opening acts?) starts at 5, w/ the President's address at 7. i'm really looking forward to this.

[PHX_PD]

^ Here's the schedule of events according to AzCentral... it looks like it will last that long:

Alice Cooper pre-ceremony appearance: 6 p.m., Runaway Phoenix featuring Dash Cooper with guest Alice Cooper.

Pre-ceremony show ends: 6:47 p.m.

ASU President Michael Crow's greetings: 7:25 p.m.

President Barack Obama's speech: 7:52 p.m.

Presentation of President Barack Obama Scholars, followed by distribution of diplomas: 8:08 p.m.

Fireworks: 9:11 p.m.

Fireworks end, field is cleared: 9:17 p.m.

[Tempe_Duck]

Looks like ValleyMetro Rail has listened to the complaints about the number and placement of the maps on the trains. There are now two maps per car section. They are above the doors (alternating sides), they are also a new style. The downtown section looks like a oval notating that they are a block apart.

They are also pushing people to "tap" their Metro Passes. In the location the old maps were is a display encouraging people to "tap" their cards.

[Leo the Dog]

I think eventually, Metro is going to separate the "starter line" into two lines that overlap each other in DT. I'm just speculating, but it makes sense to me, especially once extensions come online in Tempe/Mesa and NW Phoenix. They built turnarounds at roughly 12 St and another one at McKinley.

Could cut down on delays as the line goes from 58 mins end to end to possibly 75-80 minutes with extensions in place. Does this make sense to anyone else?

[combusean]

No, because unless capacity issues are the reason for the delays, cutting the line in half isn't going to solve anything. Other branches, like I-10 west could terminate downtown but only if there were no way to run them further.

[plinko]

^I still wouldn't be surprised to see a re-do of the lines when and if there are future lines built. This happened in Sacramento. There was a single line that ran from the NE end of town to DT and then East. That single line opened in 1987. When the south extension opened in 2002, they made it part of the line that ran to the NE. The line that ran East was extended to the west end of downtown to connect to the Amtrak station and to become a part of a future airport line. The two lines form a skewed 'X' (well, one of the legs is missing but will become the airport line).

I could see the I-10 extension being tied in with the E-W section of the existing starter line along Washington out to Mesa. That would allow the Central Ave portion to be extended to the south to South Phoenix.

Given the grid system in Phoenix, it's very easy to see how that could work.