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  #141  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2012, 3:27 AM
RED_PDXer RED_PDXer is offline
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Originally Posted by bvpcvm View Post
No, it isn't.

Intel is still expanding without it. Nike is expanding without it.
Ditto. Building freeways changes travel and development patterns, in the wrong way. Developers will build along it, people will move out further and use it. The cycle continues until it's clogged with traffic and we need a bypass for the bypass. Try serving the middle of nowhere with transit - no luck. People will be forced to drive for everything, resulting in ever-increasing auto dependence. No thanks!
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  #142  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2012, 4:45 AM
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Exactly. And we already have a bypass: 217.
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  #143  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bvpcvm View Post
No, it isn't.

Intel is still expanding without it. Nike is expanding without it.

Sure, traffic's bad, but has building more freeways made traffic in, say, Atlanta or Houston or L.A. any better?

New roads fill up with new traffic quickly and the "advantage" of more capacity, purchased with billions of dollars we don't have, disappears.

Moreover, despite any attempts to "limit access", there will be a huge amount of pressure from developers to expand the UGB and add interchanges, leading to ever more sprawl, and imprisoning thousands more people in a cars-only environment. A westside bypass would basically be a 1950's solution to 2012 problems. Don't forget that the gas prices we had when, say, I-205 was built are never coming back. And people under 35 drive less than any other preceding generation since WW2. And the baby boomers will soon be at an age where they won't be physically able to drive. Expanding sprawl westward would serve no purpose other than to condemn people who can't drive to a life of little mobility.

But, no worries: there's not a chance in hell this thing'll be funded. Remember the Sunrise Corridor in Clackamas County? 30 years ago my dad was telling me it was just around the corner. But it's still just a bunch of blueprints. The CRC, for which I think the case is slightly stronger, isn't going anywhere soon. The westside bypass isn't either.
San Diego has managed to widen freeways in ways that have reduced congestion. Many of them involve HOT (high-occupancy/toll lanes), but not all. Highway 56 opened up to free flowing traffic almost a decade ago, and still only has traffic problems at the I-5 merge which were identified in planning but just not worth building as part of the initial construction. It was built in obsolescence for the interchange, but they acquired the right properties so they could address it in the future.

Maybe this isn't something that's immediately needed, but it might not hurt to start planning for the long term and acquiring properties that are put up for sale so that it can be built with minimal disruption in the future.

If we're going to build it, even if it's not in the next 30 years, it doesn't hurt to start acquiring properties now so that less properties are impacted in the future. Not to say we'll ever "need" a west side bypass, but it seems shortsighted to assume we never will.
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  #144  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2012, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bvpcvm View Post
Exactly. And we already have a bypass: 217.
Exactly, I could see wanting to extend 217 north to connect it to I-5 in Washington to eliminate the need to go through I-405, but that is about it.

Any new highway further out on the Westside should only be done if the UGB is extended that far out, but any extension of the UGB I would hope this would come with a plan to expand rail, even the a regional commuter rail which would make rail people happy because it would be much easier to talk about having a subway line under downtown Portland with a regional commuter rail (never going to happen) which could give the city a couple subway transit stops downtown and a stop or two on the eastside, may include a stop in the Lloyd District. But we all know, this is never going to happen.
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  #145  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2012, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bvpcvm View Post
No, it isn't.


But, no worries: there's not a chance in hell this thing'll be funded. Remember the Sunrise Corridor in Clackamas County? 30 years ago my dad was telling me it was just around the corner. But it's still just a bunch of blueprints.
re: Sunrise - "ODOT has hired OBEC as the consultant design firm and expects design to be complete by early 2013, with construction
beginning in summer 2013."
There has already been a fair amount of work done on the ground in preparation for this. See here for more: http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/REGIO...efactsheet.pdf

That said, the Westside Bypass is prehistoric thinking and should be thoroughly shit-canned before any significant tax dollars are spent looking at it.
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  #146  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2013, 3:34 AM
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Exactly, I could see wanting to extend 217 north to connect it to I-5 in Washington to eliminate the need to go through I-405, but that is about it.

Any new highway further out on the Westside should only be done if the UGB is extended that far out, but any extension of the UGB I would hope this would come with a plan to expand rail, even the a regional commuter rail which would make rail people happy because it would be much easier to talk about having a subway line under downtown Portland with a regional commuter rail (never going to happen) which could give the city a couple subway transit stops downtown and a stop or two on the eastside, may include a stop in the Lloyd District. But we all know, this is never going to happen.
Extending WES to Salem is something that is eventually going to happen, and eventually MAX will be put underground through downtown. The question is when, and the answer probably won't be clear for a while. The Steel Bridge is basically near the maximum it can handle. You can't really add more trains than what cross it now, so a tunnel will happen sooner than anyone probably expects. The current Orange Line extension will take until 2015, then it sounds like Powell or SW will be next, but between both that will be 2022 or so. Probably around there is when a Lloyd Center to Robertson Tunnel Tunnel will break ground. The Mall trains will probably not be undergrounded in the same project, but even putting the Blue below ground and leaving the Red as a surface circulator would free up crossings of the Steel Bridge.

Edited to add, you can keep existing/future lines and make a grid with the same # of crossings, but add some diverted to the new tunnel.

Hillsboro to Gresham stays on the existing Blue line, but goes under the tunnel.
Airport to Beaverton stays on the existing Red line the entire way acting also as a downtown circulator.
Green line instead goes from CTC to Beaverton via Banfield and new downtown tunnel.
Yellow Line goes Expo to Milwaukie (new Orange Line) via transit mall.
New Powell Line goes from CTC to Expo Center via Powell, new bridge, transit mall and current Yellow line. Maybe merge the Yellow/Orange (as mentioned above) and make this the new Yellow.

You could add other service too, like an Interstate/Expo-Rose Quarter/Banfield-I205 Transitway/CTC direct line, or PDX to CTC. (Pink/Purple?) If the SW line also happened you could mix that in with service just to the transit mall if the Steel Bridge was overloaded and it still would be a good start.

If the first tunnel was designed right it could eventually support transfers to the North/South line as well, or you could just build a second North/South subway below the transit mall. One big advantage of a subway is that a single station can serve multiple stops, but one advantage of the current MAX setup is having frequent service in some neighborhoods. Maybe mixing a subway/LRT and surface/LRT is the way to connect all the same places, but not tear out the surface interaction of the MAX lines.

Last edited by davehogan; Jan 1, 2013 at 3:50 AM.
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  #147  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2013, 6:41 PM
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http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/in...ter_bypas.html

The effort to erect a new Columbia River bridge has underscored the difficulty of planning, financing and building major infrastructure projects.
The task can be particularly complex in Oregon, a state that demands citizen involvement in political process and strives to be a national leader in both sustainability and land-use planning. So, one wonders what Hillsboro Mayor Jerry Willey was thinking when he decided to initiate discussion about a major westside transportation initiative while the Columbia River Crossing is still being tossed about in the political mosh pit.

Give Willey points for courage. Then, take a deep breath and join the discussion. The region's economic future is at stake.

Last year, Willey started building support for some type of westside transportation project after commissioning a white paper on "Transportation Infrastructure and the Westside Economy." Willey and Hillsboro officials have been careful to avoid use of the word "bypass," which carries negative connotations connected to a 1989 effort to build a westside freeway.

The 1989 effort ran into a dead end, and the latest effort likely will, too, if it is perceived as just another attempt to build a multi-lane highway. So it is encouraging that when Willey met with The Oregonian editorial board in late December, he said that he wants the process to be open to all solutions to make it easier for workers and freight to get to and from the growing westside employment centers anchored by Nike and Intel.

"We're trying not to fast forward to the finish line," Willey said. "We want to bring in the experts and we want to be told what would work."

Finding a solution won't be easy even if everyone involved adopts that attitude. But the timing is right to try.

In the past three months, both Nike and Intel made commitments for significant expansion beyond their already impressive growth of the past two decades. Gov. John Kitzhaber called a special session of the Legislature to pass a Nike-requested bill providing tax assurance to companies that meet spending and hiring thresholds with expansions.

Neither Nike nor Intel asked for an infrastructure bill. But make no mistake, current transportation options are not adequate to accommodate the growth at these companies and the spillover effect on surrounding employers and neighborhoods.

Hillsboro officials would like the 2013 Legislature to direct the Oregon Department of Transportation to evaluate westside infrastructure options. Few would argue with that. Finding agreement on a plan, and a way to pay for it, will be much more challenging.

To have any chance at success, a plan must embrace these goals:

It needs to be multimodal, covering everything from bicycle lanes to highway corridors capable of handling heavy freight.

It should avoid the ideological extremes. A single freeway, even if there were a way to design and pay for it, won't solve the problem alone. It's equally impractical to think mass transit could be improved enough to get a majority of workers to leave their cars in the garage.

Private employers and government must cooperate, including sharing costs.

Solutions that fit within those parameters could range from adding TriMet park-and-ride locations and express routes to expansion of shuttle services already operated by Nike and Intel to a series of new or improved north-south roads rather than one expressway.

Willey has begun the tedious process of consensus building, meeting with representatives of local and state agencies and governments. If nothing else, most agree that the recent announcements at Intel and Nike increase the urgency for developing a long-term westside transportation plan.

"This is a great opportunity to think about this growing jobs, retail and residential community and how to serve it with transportation," said TriMet General Manager Neil McFarlane.

Ultimately, any ambitious project will require cobbling together money from multiple funding sources. And it almost certainly will have to be done in stages. But waiting will only make the task more difficult. ODOT, TriMet and westside governments should heed Willey's call and start taking a serious look at what is possible.
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Stop building out, start building up, BUT DO IT RIGHT the first time....so we dont have to come back and fix our mistakes 50 years from now.
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  #148  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2013, 2:08 AM
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I don't understand what is being built, or why, in regards to the Sunrise Corridor, but I came across a mention in a recent article from the Portland Tribune...

Streetcar firm on busy track
Created on Thursday, 29 August 2013 07:00 | Written by Jim Redden

http://portlandtribune.com/pt/9-news...-on-busy-track

(Bold emphasis mine)
Quote:
...

Even as production continues, the Clackamas County company is facing another challenge. Construction has just started on a new freeway next to the assembly plant. The Sunrise Corridor will be elevated over the track where streetcars are tested. Bulldozers and dump trucks already are gouging out the path for the ramp.

Clarke is confident disruptions will be minimal, however. He says the company strongly supports the $130 million project to relieve congestion and open up access to industrial land in the area east of I-205, and worked with state transportation officials on the track design.

...
Anybody have information or some quality links on this project?
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  #149  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2013, 4:18 AM
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This was originally planned as a typical freeway, from 205 thru damascus and boring to 26. What they're building is a 2 lane rd east to I think 162nd.
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  #150  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2013, 3:54 AM
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thats a waist of money imo
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  #151  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2013, 5:20 AM
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thats a waist of money imo
No, it actually makes sense. It will be connecting the Milwaukie expressway Rt 224 for the other part of Rt 224 and bypassing the 205. This will be a huge improvement for the industrial land that is over there and eliminating the need for them to have to go through two interchanges and will better connect the industrial area to the east to the highway.

You have to keep in mind, this may seem like a waste, but it will have a positive impact on a number of industrial businesses which could mean positive job growth in that area.
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  #152  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2013, 6:11 PM
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ODOT (sorry large image)

info is here for the very limited first phase. This freeway will take 20-40 years to complete, if ever, as the different funding schemes for this arguably unneeded project (via State tolls, private tolls, or federal funds) didn't pencil out back in the early 1980's... then again in the 1990's... and again in the 2000's. Some projects just won't die.
Oh, and since they are doing it piecemeal, the added ROW space for potential bus lanes, carpool lanes, or rail transit to Damascus won't be included as previously envisioned, but it looks like a new bicycle / pedestrian path will be part of this phase.

*Note Oregon Ironworks streetcar test tracks in the center of the image.

Last edited by NJD; Sep 28, 2013 at 6:33 PM.
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  #153  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2013, 12:32 AM
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I've seen that graphic before many times, but never realized those were the OIW test tracks. Thank you.
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  #154  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2014, 10:32 PM
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Rethinking Eastbank I-5

Starting this thread to further the conversation happening elsewhere about various scenarios involving the east bank of the Willamette River, largely dominated right now by the I-5 freeway.

I'll start with the proposal by Adams/PBOT from last year. News stories here and here.



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  #155  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2014, 11:17 PM
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Personally, I think this is a project that is likely to happen at some point. I don't buy the "impossible" argument at all. Particularly if the CRC fails as currently designed.

I'd be less inclined to bury the freeway simply due to cost vs. benefit. I'd rather see 405 become the new 5 (without additional lanes) and the chunk between 84 and the westside turned into an arterial surface street integrated into the existing grid. Perhaps the top level of the Marquam could be removed as part of this project and a competition could be held for a bridge re-design (including a toll?). The new connections between this new arterial and 84 (west end of Sullivan's Gulch) and the new 5 (west side Riverplace/Sowa) would hopefully be less space-sucking and imposing, too.

A few things obviously need to come into play before this prospect becomes reality: some sort of VMT tax and/or toll system (for more efficient demand management), a more complete mass transit system, and the all-important political will that may come with a new generation of leaders.

I think the result of figuring out some way of opening the east side of the Willamette back up to the city would be truly momentous. It would return the river to its rightful place as the central artery of the city and likely lead to vastly increased east bank residential density, which would likely have a spillover effect we can barely imagine: more activity around Waterfront Park and along Naito, a ferry system, etc, etc. I think the CEID between Water and MLK could be preserved through careful zoning. Other cities such as Madrid and Seoul have completed similarly ambitious projects in the last decade.
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  #156  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2014, 3:09 AM
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I'd be less inclined to bury the freeway simply due to cost vs. benefit. I'd rather see 405 become the new 5 (without additional lanes) and the chunk between 84 and the westside turned into an arterial surface street integrated into the existing grid. Perhaps the top level of the Marquam could be removed as part of this project and a competition could be held for a bridge re-design (including a toll?). The new connections between this new arterial and 84 (west end of Sullivan's Gulch) and the new 5 (west side Riverplace/Sowa) would hopefully be less space-sucking and imposing, too.
Like I said in the other thread I agree with the idea of turning the 405 into the I-5 and ideally I would not add any additional lanes but I felt that unless we have really progressive leadership a compromise to ease peoples concern with traffic could be throwing in a lane in each direction if even feasible because there is really no room.

If it was me though I agree I would not add additional lanes. I do not think the tunnel is impossible per say but it is extremely expensive and long undertaking that would be hard to push through. To me turning the 405 into I-5 would be the best idea.

Opening up the east bank truly would be amazing and show that Portland is still on the cutting edge of urban planning. I would love to see the Eastbank Esplanade widened with separate pedestrian and bicycle paths. There could definitely be some innovative things done with riverfront. I would like to see residential buildings and mixed-use ones pop up along the riverfront with restaurants and offices. A pedestrian bridge with a beautiful design like the peace bridge in Calgary crossing the Willamette. There is so much potential.
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  #157  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2014, 5:29 AM
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I think that if they are ever willing to bury or get rid of the freeway, they should bury the railroad (and maybe expand its capacity). It can cause real issues getting around in the CEID when they park a long freight train - sometimes 15 minutes or longer.

However, tunneling right next to the river like that is kind of dangerous. The Willamette river does flood - and could inundate a tunnel if it went over the banks.
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  #158  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2014, 7:32 AM
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I think that if they are ever willing to bury or get rid of the freeway, they should bury the railroad (and maybe expand its capacity). It can cause real issues getting around in the CEID when they park a long freight train - sometimes 15 minutes or longer.

However, tunneling right next to the river like that is kind of dangerous. The Willamette river does flood - and could inundate a tunnel if it went over the banks.
When I would drive to see my wife back when we were still dating, I would hop off the exit right at those train tracks and use to have the train schedule down because I kept getting caught by the same train every day.

Though I will say, as long as that area in between the river and MLK stays mostly industrial, there isn't much need to change anything in that area. I would like to see that area think outside of the box when it comes to industrial to help expand the types of industry that is already growing over there.

I think MLK, Grand, 7th, 10th, and 11th are much better areas for redeveloping into more mixed use urban districts, which much of those areas are already zoned for that. In a number of areas the height restriction is set at 200ft.
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  #159  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2014, 9:57 PM
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then everything would be all spread out. it would be better to have just one downtown along the river
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  #160  
Old Posted Jan 9, 2014, 10:34 PM
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The Central Eastside Industrial District, along with the Pearl District, NW and South Waterfront, are all considered part of Portland's "Central City."

http://www.portlandoregon.gov/bps/47907
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