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  #61  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 4:19 AM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Do you think Trump shutting down the pandemic team is the reason an incredibly contagious virus made it here? Do you think Trump being blase really had anything to do with what the people who are actually making decisions did?

Put down CNN and stop trying to blame one person for a virus. The same thing is happening all over the world.
Are you OK? If you must blame a single person for this, you know who gets the blame.
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  #62  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 2:32 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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I'm fine, I just want people to stop playing politics and focus on the issue we are having. Standing around pointing fingers isn't helpful.
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  #63  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 2:37 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is offline
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Well, in the future, it is important who is causing harm to the country. Trump definitely did not start the virus, but he has and continues to do things that make it much worse than it should have been. Personally, I don't want someone in charge with his horrific decision making skills. He lies, hides from the truth, and causes harm, lethal harm, to our families and friends through his lack of leadership ability. Sorry to offend his base, but facts are facts, and facts point to more sickness and death than should have occurred.
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  #64  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 2:40 PM
azliam azliam is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I'm fine, I just want people to stop playing politics and focus on the issue we are having. Standing around pointing fingers isn't helpful.
Agreed. There are plenty of threads in the CD Forums for people to immerse themselves in political discussions and politicize the pandemic/play the blame game, etc.. The last thing we need or deserve is for this forum to turn into that.
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  #65  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 3:02 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertRay View Post
Jeebus, you don't do research. The Los Alamos/Sandia team was a group of scientists that included epidemiologists and other scientists who deal with these complex events (mathematicians, etc.).
Thats great, But guess what, neither SARS nor EBOLA were cured by any action those viruses did what viruses do, the evolved until they became less deadly or they burned through their population because they were too deadly.

The governments never "solved" Anything. They did what we are doing now which is attempt to limit spread.

Maybe you should do your research.
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  #66  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 3:04 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by gymratmanaz View Post
Trump definitely did not start the virus, but he has and continues to do things that make it much worse than it should have been.
Lol let hear what should have been done to make this less bad and analyze if those ideas are feasible at all.

I personally think we are already foolish in response not because of Trump but because cities and states have decided to cut their legs off to prevent a stubbed toe.
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  #67  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 3:36 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Thats great, But guess what, neither SARS nor EBOLA were cured by any action those viruses did what viruses do, the evolved until they became less deadly or they burned through their population because they were too deadly.

The governments never "solved" Anything. They did what we are doing now which is attempt to limit spread.

Maybe you should do your research.
What a weird and helpless thing to say. I said that good government helps coordinate our actions. That what "limiting the spread" involves. People can't just educate themselves without the systems in place to coordinate our activity. The "Spanish" Flu decimated 50+ million because our folk understanding didn't enable us to limit the spread, develop a vaccine, or develop treatments. After that, coordination of individual activity (through all levels of cooperative activity--from small businesses to large corporations and institutions like Institutes of Health, National Labs, Universities, etc.) helped us eradicate diseases and avoid other plagues. We beat smallpox, polio, and many other scourges through this coordinated activity. It ain't everything, but it's a far cry from letting anything just kill at will.

As for your assertion about Ebola and SARS. LOL. You should read more.

Quote:
How we beat the Ebola epidemic
May 16, 2015

Last year, a devastating Ebola outbreak in West Africa killed thousands. Today, the disease is under control. Here's what you need to know:

Is the crisis over?
Not yet, but the signs are good in all three afflicted countries. Liberia was officially declared free of Ebola last week, after 42 days with no new cases, while Guinea and Sierra Leone together recorded just 18 new infections the week before last — the lowest total this year. By comparison, at the peak of the outbreak last fall, the deadly disease was infecting about 400 people a week in Liberia alone. So although the death toll keeps climbing — it has now passed 11,000, with 26,628 total cases — the worst seems to be over. The Pentagon has pulled out all but 100 of the 2,800 troops sent to assist the authorities in the region, and health officials are hoping to identify and isolate all remaining cases in the region before the rainy season begins in June. As one U.S. military official put it: "We got a handle on Ebola a lot quicker than anyone expected."

Was the danger exaggerated?
Some of the warnings by public officials seem, in retrospect at least, overstated. In September, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimated Ebola could infect as many as 1.4 million people; Jeffrey Hawkins, the U.S. consul general in Nigeria, warned of the possibility of an "apocalyptic urban outbreak." When President Obama asked Congress for $6 billion in funding to help combat the disease, he called the epidemic a "national security priority." But although the doomsaying may seem excessive now, it did focus the world's attention on a disaster that was threatening to spiral out of control. It was the worst Ebola outbreak in history, killing five times more people than all previous Ebola epidemics combined.

How was it contained?
By educating West Africans on how Ebola is transmitted, and by aggressive efforts to isolate and treat the infected. When the outbreak began 16 months ago, health care workers in Liberia, Guinea, and Sierra Leone were initially fighting blind. Doctors and nurses had to learn from scratch how to treat Ebola — the odds of survival dramatically increase with early, effective symptom management — and how to contain it. Helped by more than 10,000 volunteers from around the world, health workers gradually taught people to avoid unnecessary physical contact, to go to a clinic the moment they displayed symptoms, and to forgo the traditional ritual of washing corpses — a practice that accelerated the spread of the disease. "The best way to fight Ebola," says Joseph Boye Cooper, a volunteer worker in Liberia, "is to prevent it."

Did the U.S. military help?
Forbidden by the Pentagon from working directly with patients, the troops sent to Liberia focused on building treatment centers. But by the time they finished the first U.S.-supported clinic in November, infection rates were already in significant decline. In total, the 11 clinics they built treated just 28 Ebola patients; nine centers haven't had a single case. Jeremy Konyndyk, who headed the Ebola response for the U.S. Agency for International Development, insists the abundance of caution was warranted. "You don't know where the fire is going to break out," he says, "but you're going to need a fire station there when it does." U.S. troops also helped in other ways, training hundreds of health-care workers and airlifting supplies and medical teams around the region.

What's next for the countries affected?
If Sierra Leone and Guinea join Liberia in becoming Ebola free, the first priority will be rebuilding their shattered health-care systems. The epidemic not only killed an astonishing 10 percent of the countries' health-care workers but also sucked up pretty much every available medical resource. As a result, around 250,000 children across the region missed out on basic vaccinations, raising the specter of an outbreak of measles or another disease. The threat of Ebola, meanwhile, will always remain; the virus lurks in infected bats and other animals, which can spread it to humans. But if there's another outbreak, West Africa will undoubtedly be much, much better prepared to respond.

How about the rest of the world?
The World Health Organization (WHO), which was heavily criticized for its lackluster initial response, has warned that the world is ill prepared for another "large and sustained disease outbreak." If Ebola ever gains a foothold in China or India, where the population density is high and the health-care infrastructure deeply inadequate, the death toll could be catastrophically high. But the epidemic in West Africa has given health experts invaluable experience for dealing with future outbreaks, and there are already plans for establishing a global fast-response team to prevent something similar from happening again. The hardest task may be sustaining enough interest in the issue to ensure reforms are made. "Six months ago, the world was worried," says WHO's Dr. Bruce Aylward. "There was a lot of self-interest in making sure this thing was stopped. The biggest mistake the world could do right now is blink."

The hunt for a vaccine
There is one drawback to the containment of Ebola: It may prevent scientists from developing a vaccine. Outbreaks provide a rare chance to test drugs that could help prevent future epidemics, but pharmaceutical companies have struggled to capitalize on the opportunity in West Africa. Of the three major clinical trials currently taking place, the most scientifically rigorous began in Liberia, where there has been only one new patient in the past couple of months. The other studies, in Guinea and Sierra Leone, fall short of the scientific gold standard of being randomized and placebo-controlled, in part because some scientists object to giving placebos to anyone at risk from the deadly virus. Nevertheless, researchers remain upbeat. If there's another outbreak, says Dr. David Nabarro, the U.N.'s special envoy on Ebola, scientists can launch trials and drug production "at a push of a button, rather than having to invent a response in the heat of a crisis."
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  #68  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 3:50 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertRay View Post
How was it contained?
By educating West Africans on how Ebola is transmitted, and by aggressive efforts to isolate and treat the infected. When the outbreak began 16 months ago, health care workers in Liberia, Guinea, and Sierra Leone were initially fighting blind. Doctors and nurses had to learn from scratch how to treat Ebola — the odds of survival dramatically increase with early, effective symptom management — and how to contain it. Helped by more than 10,000 volunteers from around the world, health workers gradually taught people to avoid unnecessary physical contact, to go to a clinic the moment they displayed symptoms, and to forgo the traditional ritual of washing corpses — a practice that accelerated the spread of the disease. "The best way to fight Ebola," says Joseph Boye Cooper, a volunteer worker in Liberia, "is to prevent it."
I deleted everything that was irrelevant.


NO vaccine was created, no effort of mathematicians in los Alamos fixed it. I dont see the paragraph about the CDC pandemic action committee solving the problem. People learned how to avoid catching it and the Ebola strain died out.

Ebola has no vaccine, it is till around in Congo RIGHT NOW.

SARS was never cured either, it was much more deadly than this and eventually died out. This is essentially another less deadly iteration of SARS which helped it spread more widely killing less proportionally but infecting more.

Thats a nice article but how does it demonstrate the US "not" doing what needs to be done?

We have almost 300 million people locked in their homes, we are about to inflict the larges economic contraction in history voluntarily to prevent this from spreading.

So I ask again. In your well researched wisdom, what is the US doing wrong, what do we need to do to solve this pandemic.

Because for now I think I still am correct that there isnt much that can be done that we arent already doing, and there was never a hope of stopping this in the way you seem to want.
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  #69  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 4:14 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I deleted everything that was irrelevant.


NO vaccine was created, no effort of mathematicians in los Alamos fixed it. I dont see the paragraph about the CDC pandemic action committee solving the problem. People learned how to avoid catching it and the Ebola strain died out.

Ebola has no vaccine, it is till around in Congo RIGHT NOW.

SARS was never cured either, it was much more deadly than this and eventually died out. This is essentially another less deadly iteration of SARS which helped it spread more widely killing less proportionally but infecting more.

Thats a nice article but how does it demonstrate the US "not" doing what needs to be done?

We have almost 300 million people locked in their homes, we are about to inflict the larges economic contraction in history voluntarily to prevent this from spreading.

So I ask again. In your well researched wisdom, what is the US doing wrong, what do we need to do to solve this pandemic.

Because for now I think I still am correct that there isnt much that can be done that we arent already doing, and there was never a hope of stopping this in the way you seem to want.
Why all the hate on Los Alamos? Did you want Hitler to get the bomb first? Weird.

Here is my earlier post:

Quote:
He's made a few good decisions, and a lot of crappy, consequential ones. Trump was warned by Bill Gates this was coming in Trump Tower in 2016. Trump didn't prepare for this for the past 3.5 years (his job, BTW, is to prepare the people he commands for this, and to prepare Americans for potential hardships). There are a number of things that might be really bad, but I have yet to see if the Pandemic group he disbanded and the Playbook he lost in storage were any better than what we have now--we need an autopsy to say for sure, but it currently looks bad. We all saw Trump publicly going through the stages of grief ("fifteen cases, which will go to zero," and "magically go away"), which lost us important time. You can call these "political decisions," but they are actually just "decisions," and, yes, they have consequences. D-Day was also a "political decision," as was "dropping the atomic bombs." I'm not arguing optics, but choices, and my judgment matters infinitely less than what we all experience personally over the next period of hardship. If it gets way better, and quickly, then we'll all breathe a sigh of relief (and, trust me, I will breathe a HUGE sigh of relief). If it gets as bad as I think, then we will be talking about how to transition to a new administration in the midst of this period of difficulty. Time will tell.
So, to sum up

Here's what Trump DID wrong: Shuttered the pandemic team, reduced funding for the CDC, lost the pandemic playbook that coordinates activity, and wrecked international relationships that make international coordination possible.

You are sidestepping the fact that the international organizations that slowed and then stopped the spread of Ebola and SARS took resources for coordination and trust-building. Without that, we likely would have had many more people landing in the US with both, and it could have been way, way WAY worse. But, yeah, tell yourself that nobody did anything in the past, and that we should just, you know, let it all burn. Great plan.

Here is what Trump is CURRENTLY doing wrong: not focusing his bully pulpit on communicating a consistent and nation-wide response. Tell governors to do what Bill Gates just put in the op-Ed. Gates was right in 2015 (and, according to you DECADES ago); Gates was right when told Trump to take this seriously in 2016 at Trump tower just after he was elected; and Gates is right now. I don't care if this is through phone calls to governors, or a national edict, but get it done (he hasn't yet, and it's long past due). Have someone coordinating equipment delivery (from the military--and not just the one fella who is doing a tiny portion of this right now). Currently, this is FUBAR. It will likely get better, but keep working it through a single person, and get that person at the podium. Trump likely needs to use his authority to increase production of the PPE for medical, police, and firefighters (and maybe service industry folks) to slow the spread. Stop attacking the press (or just STFU). People need to trust the media, and the way to do that is to give one consistent, daily message, and push it out through all channels. Stop the weird conspiracy theories and dog whistles. Just act like a Commander in Chief for more than five minutes.

I think Trump was right to stop flights from China, but that should go against your "business should always stay open, no matter what, because germs gonna germ" philosophy. It would have been nice to see him lay the groundwork for the more massive groundings earlier, but I know that his "WALL" bots gotta hate certain countries to keep the flame burning bright for the 2020 election, so that was understandable. I also think that Trump is evolving into better approaches as the death toll mounts. It's probably not enough to avert bad things, but will hopefully not prevent us from avoiding the worst. Fingers crossed for Team America.
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  #70  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 4:27 PM
fawd fawd is offline
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Why all the hate on Los Alamos? Did you want Hitler to get the bomb first? Weird.
*facepalm*

Well your creditability in this debate just went to zero... good work.
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  #71  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 5:04 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertRay View Post
Why all the hate on Los Alamos? Did you want Hitler to get the bomb first? Weird.

Here is my earlier post:



So, to sum up

Here's what Trump DID wrong: Shuttered the pandemic team, reduced funding for the CDC, lost the pandemic playbook that coordinates activity, and wrecked international relationships that make international coordination possible.

You are sidestepping the fact that the international organizations that slowed and then stopped the spread of Ebola and SARS took resources for coordination and trust-building. Without that, we likely would have had many more people landing in the US with both, and it could have been way, way WAY worse. But, yeah, tell yourself that nobody did anything in the past, and that we should just, you know, let it all burn. Great plan.

Here is what Trump is CURRENTLY doing wrong: not focusing his bully pulpit on communicating a consistent and nation-wide response. Tell governors to do what Bill Gates just put in the op-Ed. Gates was right in 2015 (and, according to you DECADES ago); Gates was right when told Trump to take this seriously in 2016 at Trump tower just after he was elected; and Gates is right now. I don't care if this is through phone calls to governors, or a national edict, but get it done (he hasn't yet, and it's long past due). Have someone coordinating equipment delivery (from the military--and not just the one fella who is doing a tiny portion of this right now). Currently, this is FUBAR. It will likely get better, but keep working it through a single person, and get that person at the podium. Trump likely needs to use his authority to increase production of the PPE for medical, police, and firefighters (and maybe service industry folks) to slow the spread. Stop attacking the press (or just STFU). People need to trust the media, and the way to do that is to give one consistent, daily message, and push it out through all channels. Stop the weird conspiracy theories and dog whistles. Just act like a Commander in Chief for more than five minutes.

I think Trump was right to stop flights from China, but that should go against your "business should always stay open, no matter what, because germs gonna germ" philosophy. It would have been nice to see him lay the groundwork for the more massive groundings earlier, but I know that his "WALL" bots gotta hate certain countries to keep the flame burning bright for the 2020 election, so that was understandable. I also think that Trump is evolving into better approaches as the death toll mounts. It's probably not enough to avert bad things, but will hopefully not prevent us from avoiding the worst. Fingers crossed for Team America.
The USA still has very low per captia infections and deaths and a low death rate.

The US has already mobilized to a degree unseen ever in history between the lock downs, the trillions in stimulus, the amount of testing etc etc. We are already doing what you think we should be doing.

We have the defense production act in place something we haven't needed since ww2. You have companies all over the country switching to "wartime" production including Phoenix's own Brooklyn bedding.

You want to argue on hindsight, and unknowable assumptions. Pandemics are ALWAYS a risk, there is no way that Trump or anyone could have known this was "the one" until it was. So Bill Gates has been talking about Cornaviruses for a long time, so have many others. There was a big Hollywood film about one in 2011 called Contagion. What is that supposed to mean? We all should have known that Bill Gates warnings years ago should have been specifically and arbitrarily heeded compared to any other? More reaching for blame.

There are all sorts of things that we know CAN happen. Super Volcanoes, Asteroid Strikes, Solar Flares, Tsunamis.

Do we as a society need to be 100% ready for any of these things that WILL (given time) occur eventually?

I understand that you wish some things maybe should have been prepared in hindsight, but you cant live like that, there is no way to reasonably prepare for this kind of stuff more than we already do. I mean shit dude even with budget cuts we fund the CDC more than any other country could hope too (6.5 billion in 2020). We fund the WHO more than anyone else by an order of magnitude.


So again. "we should have been more prepared" How can you be "more prepared" for Pandemics than having the CDC with a 6.5 BILLION dollar budget??? Its a permanent institution for these very problems.
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  #72  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 5:09 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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I find both of your arguments compelling and I am enjoying reading the banter.

There is a large number of the US population who seems to believe this could have been avoided and I'm feeling like Desert Ray might be part of that lot. I am not one to tell you that your opinion is wrong but when something affects the entire world I don't think it's any one country's place to say "we will be immune".
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  #73  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 5:12 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Originally Posted by fawd View Post
*facepalm*

Well your creditability in this debate just went to zero... good work.
Uh...OK. If you say so. Los Alamos developed the bomb at the behest of the Roosevelt administration. The race against the Fascists and the Nazis started in 1939 as we were being pulled into the war. The race against Hitler was surmised by FDR and the US Department of War, which might have turned out to be true if the Allied governments hadn't successfully conducted war in the European theater. We used German refugee scientists to develop it, and our efforts to outrace Germany was in no way certain until we developed them and Germany surrendered. The question stands: why do you hate the competent scientists who deliver on what they are asked to do?

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  #74  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 5:16 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Uh...OK. If you say so. Los Alamos developed the bomb at the behest of the Roosevelt administration. The race against the Fascists and the Nazis started in 1939 as we were being pulled into the war. The race against Hitler was surmised by FDR and the US Department of War, which might have turned out to be true if the Allied governments hadn't successfully conducted war in the European theater. We used German refugee scientists to develop it, and our efforts to outrace Germany was in no way certain until we developed them and Germany surrendered. The question stands: why do you hate the competent scientists who deliver on what they are asked to do?

Its a bad argument because a bomb making physics lab from the 40's is irrelevant to today and whats going on with a Virus.

What Los Alomos was at that point is entirely different from what it is today
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  #75  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 5:27 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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The USA still has very low per captia infections and deaths and a low death rate.

The US has already mobilized to a degree unseen ever in history between the lock downs, the trillions in stimulus, the amount of testing etc etc. We are already doing what you think we should be doing.

We have the defense production act in place something we haven't needed since ww2. You have companies all over the country switching to "wartime" production including Phoenix's own Brooklyn bedding.

You want to argue on hindsight, and unknowable assumptions. Pandemics are ALWAYS a risk, there is no way that Trump or anyone could have known this was "the one" until it was. So Bill Gates has been talking about Cornaviruses for a long time, so have many others. There was a big Hollywood film about one in 2011 called Contagion. What is that supposed to mean? We all should have known that Bill Gates warnings years ago should have been specifically and arbitrarily heeded compared to any other? More reaching for blame.

There are all sorts of things that we know CAN happen. Super Volcanoes, Asteroid Strikes, Solar Flares, Tsunamis.

Do we as a society need to be 100% ready for any of these things that WILL (given time) occur eventually?

I understand that you wish some things maybe should have been prepared in hindsight, but you cant live like that, there is no way to reasonably prepare for this kind of stuff more than we already do. I mean shit dude even with budget cuts we fund the CDC more than any other country could hope too (6.5 billion in 2020). We fund the WHO more than anyone else by an order of magnitude.


So again. "we should have been more prepared" How can you be "more prepared" for Pandemics than having the CDC with a 6.5 BILLION dollar budget??? Its a permanent institution for these very problems.
OK, now we get to the crux of it. I have outlined what could have been done better (not funding the CDC less, keeping the pandemic team going instead of disbanding it, better messaging from the bully pulpit, better coordination of supplies).

There are a number of institutions that characterize the threats out there (including things like asteroid strikes, etc.). When I was at Sandia Labs (I worked in nuclear nonproliferation and infrastructure surety), the group that helped us game this out was the Advanced Concepts Group. It might be a different group now, but that's who it was decades ago. We ran simulations about consequences and likelihood of particular situations. The collapse of oil prices, cascading blackouts, etc. The biggest nightmare is climate change, because of the interdependencies and cascading problems. We did work with the DoD, because they are the ones who will ultimately need to address many of the symptoms (global unrest, etc.). The second nightmare scenario back then was an attack on our natural gas infrastructure, because we had only a few bottlenecks, which would then result in rolling blackouts, which would hit things like hospitals, etc. This group helped any administration explore potential problems, and then prioritize resources based on these. We didn't do bio stuff back then (I think they do now, since they were beginning to hire loads and loads of those folks). I'm pointing at those things because it's the easiest way to avoid waste and taking our eye off of likely problems.

It's not about pointing at a sum of money and saying "IT'S A GIANT PILE OF MONEY." It's about organizing your administration to coordinate and prioritize before it hits, so that you are more ready when it hits. All of the "Deep State" weird rhetoric and trade-war stuff has made it hard to coordinate the response between elected political leadership and the governmental workers who carry it out, and the other countries who we need to be on the same page. Time will tell how well we do with this, and what went wrong, but all I've been saying is that it seems that some things might have gone better, and that it's too soon to tell how this will all go.

BTW, duh that Los Alamos does different things now. So does the military. Both are good at what they did then, and good at what they do now. That doesn't invalidate my question about why you hate on people who do things you and I couldn't. They work in this area now, and they are damn good at it.
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  #76  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 5:40 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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It's not about pointing at a sum of money and saying "IT'S A GIANT PILE OF MONEY." It's about organizing your administration to coordinate and prioritize before it hits, so that you are more ready when it hits.
Right so your argument is that somehow, Trump as a character is so destructive that millions of existing federal projects, employees, plans and relationships have all gone into total chaos.

And had we just had somebody more...in the "DC" circles everything would be humming along smoothly.

I reject the notion that anything that significant has changed from your experience tracking asteroids with various agencies working together.

Its an incredible reach to think a president has that much impact on the standard operations of the federal government.

I am going to still default to my original position on all of this:

The government is largely unchanged from what it was 4, 8 and 16 years ago. It operates the same with largely the same people in it.

It does not matter who was president, there was really nothing that could fundamentally change what is going on here with COVID 19, the responses to this are what has been planned for years and years, the institutions and agencies that are working on the response are either mostly independent from or sufficiently isolated from the Executive that it does not matter who it is the response was more or less going to be this.

I think your issue is more a reflection of your personal feelings about the president as a leader than it is the actual on the ground reality of the response.
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  #77  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 6:02 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Right so your argument is that somehow, Trump as a character is so destructive that millions of existing federal projects, employees, plans and relationships have all gone into total chaos.

And had we just had somebody more...in the "DC" circles everything would be humming along smoothly.

I reject the notion that anything that significant has changed from your experience tracking asteroids with various agencies working together.

Its an incredible reach to think a president has that much impact on the standard operations of the federal government.

I am going to still default to my original position on all of this:

The government is largely unchanged from what it was 4, 8 and 16 years ago. It operates the same with largely the same people in it.

It does not matter who was president, there was really nothing that could fundamentally change what is going on here with COVID 19, the responses to this are what has been planned for years and years, the institutions and agencies that are working on the response are either mostly independent from or sufficiently isolated from the Executive that it does not matter who it is the response was more or less going to be this.

I think your issue is more a reflection of your personal feelings about the president as a leader than it is the actual on the ground reality of the response.
Glad you think that leadership doesn't matter and that coordination is unimportant. Let the virus do what it wants. Talk about feelings--that's all you've got.

I'm comfortable with my experience, cited precedents, and what I think I know. Somalia is calling. It wants you to send its governing philosophy back.
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  #78  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 6:16 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Glad you think that leadership doesn't matter and that coordination is unimportant. Let the virus do what it wants. Talk about feelings--that's all you've got.

I'm comfortable with my experience, cited precedents, and what I think I know. Somalia is calling. It wants you to send its governing philosophy back.
That isn't what I said nor argued.

What I may be saying in to obtuse of a description is that the US as an entity is very large and complex. And that the singular position of President does not actually make a huge difference in the internal workings of the federal government let alone the combined might of private institutions and local/state governments.

It seems to me what you want out of the President (really the feds overall) policy wise is pretty much being done.

But you have an issue that you do not perceive the current president as a good enough leader. Well that's quite frankly a personal and emotional opinion and I cant really make you change your mind about that.

"they should have known more! They should have done better!" Okay if you say so! Hopefully that makes you feel better.
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  #79  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 6:35 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
That isn't what I said nor argued.

What I may be saying in to obtuse of a description is that the US as an entity is very large and complex. And that the singular position of President does not actually make a huge difference in the internal workings of the federal government let alone the combined might of private institutions and local/state governments.

It seems to me what you want out of the President (really the feds overall) policy wise is pretty much being done.

But you have an issue that you do not perceive the current president as a good enough leader. Well that's quite frankly a personal and emotional opinion and I cant really make you change your mind about that.

"they should have known more! They should have done better!" Okay if you say so! Hopefully that makes you feel better.
I've argued specific actions and strategies ad nauseam. Let's hear more specifics about why you think that POTUS is basically irrelevant in situations like this (beyond "it's so big and complex, it basically runs itself"). I contended that shuttering our pandemic team, burying our pandemic playbook, shifting Homeland Security away from pandemics to WALL hurt our preparations, and that our trade war, and fomenting conspiracy mindedness to satisfy the QAnon types gutted the interface between the career professionals and the political appointees (the undersecretaries and the layer right beneath) and hindered sharing of international information.

What do you think would have happened if we just let the virus go? Do you think leadership at the top matters not at all? Why? Let's hear what you think specifically would be different if we just would have gone with the Boris UK plan of herd immunity. Step up!
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  #80  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2020, 7:13 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertRay View Post
I've argued specific actions and strategies ad nauseam. Let's hear more specifics about why you think that POTUS is basically irrelevant in situations like this (beyond "it's so big and complex, it basically runs itself"). I contended that shuttering our pandemic team, burying our pandemic playbook, shifting Homeland Security away from pandemics to WALL hurt our preparations, and that our trade war, and fomenting conspiracy mindedness to satisfy the QAnon types gutted the interface between the career professionals and the political appointees (the undersecretaries and the layer right beneath) and hindered sharing of international information.

What do you think would have happened if we just let the virus go? Do you think leadership at the top matters not at all? Why? Let's hear what you think specifically would be different if we just would have gone with the Boris UK plan of herd immunity. Step up!
To which several posts ago I told you they are currently doing.

Social distancing and quarantine: Done

Reserves and Military assistance to high infection areas: Done

The Defense production act: Signed and in action

The larges stimulus ever enacted: Enacted

Daily hour long briefings directly to the public including with medical experts

The CDC on full alert and fully enacting its duties as the CDC

International travel almost at 0

what isn't being done that you brought up?
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