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  #18581  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2024, 3:24 PM
Makid Makid is offline
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I think that area would be great for a 400' tower with a few in the 300' range. With both the current and future transit along North Temple and Redwood Road, this area would be great for taller buildings. It could even serve as a template of sorts for TODs along frequent transit lines.

I could see this possibly help to spur taller development around the 2100 South Trax Station and the Murray stations.

I do think that having this type of development next to the planned MLB stadium either under active construction or completed when MLB decides to expand, it may just swing the vote in our favor.
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  #18582  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2024, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TheGeographer View Post
Larry H Miller group wants building heights up to 400 ft at the Rocky Mountain power site. A few taller buildings on that side of town would really extend out the “downtown” feeling from our current pyramid structure.

As for MLB that’s still a few years out looks like our competitors for an expansion team are Austin, Nashville, Charlotte, and Raleigh. Would Austin be considered a western or eastern team? Hopefully they’re in the East and not the West like the Spurs are in the NBA, or we could be in for some competition.
None of those cities are much competition for Salt Lake. Austin isn't likely a viable option at this point.

Salt Lake's biggest competition is Portland - and now Sacramento. The latter has shown interest in landing a MLB team ever since the A's announced they would relocate there temporarily in 2025 (which they won over Salt Lake). That right there might put the kibosh on Salt Lake landing a MLB team. if Sacramento can prove a good location and can advance a stadium plan, they absolutely could pass Salt Lake in the pecking order.

There's also a lot of speculation that the A's move to Vegas will falter. If that happens, the only chance SLC has of landing a team is if the Millers buy the A's and move 'em here instead. But if the A's decide to stay in Sacramento, if Vegas falls through, the dream of a MLB team is likely dead as Vegas will certainly become the top expansion market as the MLB *really* wants in there.

I think Salt Lake is still better positioned vs Portland, tho.
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  #18583  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2024, 11:47 PM
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Yup. Sacramento is SLC biggest threat. I still hear nothing here in the San Antonion/Austin area about potential expansion to the area
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  #18584  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2024, 2:44 AM
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Interesting to hear Sacramento is in the running for a team. That could complicate things, but I still think we beat them out for a team…hopefully
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  #18585  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2024, 2:58 AM
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Interesting to hear Sacramento is in the running for a team. That could complicate things, but I still think we beat them out for a team…hopefully
I think Salt Lake would have for-sure prior to April's announcement that the A's are playing there temporarily. I think that opens the market and gives them the edge IF they get a stadium proposal like Salt Lake.

Kings owner Vivek Ranadive is pushing the idea.
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  #18586  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2024, 6:32 PM
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Larry H Miller group wants building heights up to 400 ft at the Rocky Mountain power site. A few taller buildings on that side of town would really extend out the “downtown” feeling from our current pyramid structure.
Wow. That's... uhh..wow. 400 feet?! Do they really think the demand will be there for that height??
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  #18587  
Old Posted Sep 4, 2024, 9:19 PM
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That's a constant concern I have as well.

Salt Lake City and its developers have ambition, there's no doubt. But it always comes back to a lack of market demand. Big city ideas without a big city customer base have cut so many proposed buildings in half or canceled them outright.

That's why I love seeing the explosion of new residential across the city. A lot of walkable-friendly dense apartments everywhere help bolster demand. My only wish was that they were selling the damn things, rather than just collecting rent for investors.
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  #18588  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2024, 1:03 AM
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I think, if these are planned as apartment buildings, the demand probably already exists. Hotels? maybe. Office or condos? probably not.
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  #18589  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2024, 1:12 AM
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I think there's a ton of latent demand for condos but for various reasons they don't pencil in SLC.
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  #18590  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2024, 4:53 AM
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The demand for a 400' tower at the Rocky Mountain site may or may not be there, but why not allow for it?
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  #18591  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2024, 5:32 AM
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The North Capitol Building is coming along nicely.

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  #18592  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2024, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bob rulz View Post
The demand for a 400' tower at the Rocky Mountain site may or may not be there, but why not allow for it?
That’s my opinion as well. Allow for it even if it doesn’t happen. West of Denver’s union station there is a 350 ft condo and it’s nice to see some height extend beyond the downtown core. Why not allow for the same in SLC
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  #18593  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2024, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by MountainSkyline View Post


Here is a concept I came up with for the north side. I am aware that Kesington Investment Company is seeking an artist for a mural on the west wall. I think they ought to do an additional mural on the design fail of the north side.
An Olympic themed mural would be great.
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  #18594  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2024, 5:10 PM
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Developers need to learn how to navigate the existing credit markets. Hoping and waiting for lower rates in order to pencil out their projects is a bad strategy.
I think developers know what they're doing.

Interest rates influence cap rates (valuations). To pencil a deal, you need to forecast a future value (exit). It's not prudent to invest in a deal that won't yield. Return floors--sometimes equated with discount rates--are derived loosely by simply adding interest rates to cap rates. If an investor can't exceed that floor, s/he won't invest.

Some developers have an easier time penciling deals if there are other factors at play, e.g., opportunity zones providing tax benefits. Some are long-term holders and have a bit higher risk tolerance because they know it will yield over the long term.
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  #18595  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2024, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
I think there's a ton of latent demand for condos but for various reasons they don't pencil in SLC.
I believe we will see a shift here.
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  #18596  
Old Posted Sep 6, 2024, 6:39 PM
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They can always upzone later. I just don't see the need or demand to go 30+ stories in the Power District. I mean, how many 30+ story towers do we have built in Utah now?? 2 And they are both in the CBD. I think we are seeing this a lot lately with all of the development proposals out there, ie. Station Center, Utah City, etc.
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  #18597  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2024, 12:07 AM
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Astra Tower

Hey Schmoe, thanks for the info on developing projects.

By the way, has anyone actually moved into the Astra Tower yet?
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  #18598  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2024, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by meman View Post
Hey Schmoe, thanks for the info on developing projects.

By the way, has anyone actually moved into the Astra Tower yet?
Yes, Astra has its first residents as of 8/30. We obtained a TCO for the first 20 floors (excl. level 2 for construction staging from the garage and the 8th floor amenity level).
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  #18599  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2024, 11:10 AM
TheGeographer TheGeographer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmoe View Post
I think developers know what they're doing.

Interest rates influence cap rates (valuations). To pencil a deal, you need to forecast a future value (exit). It's not prudent to invest in a deal that won't yield. Return floors--sometimes equated with discount rates--are derived loosely by simply adding interest rates to cap rates. If an investor can't exceed that floor, s/he won't invest.

Some developers have an easier time penciling deals if there are other factors at play, e.g., opportunity zones providing tax benefits. Some are long-term holders and have a bit higher risk tolerance because they know it will yield over the long term.
Does SLC have less long-term holders compared to Austin, Nashville, Miami, Denver etc? Cities where high rise development has continued and in some cases even accelerated despite the current interest rates? If so, how can we attract more long term holders assuming there is a demand.
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  #18600  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2024, 2:13 PM
Makid Makid is offline
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Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
They can always upzone later. I just don't see the need or demand to go 30+ stories in the Power District. I mean, how many 30+ story towers do we have built in Utah now?? 2 And they are both in the CBD. I think we are seeing this a lot lately with all of the development proposals out there, ie. Station Center, Utah City, etc.
I think starting off with a 400' limit is better than say a 200' limit.

With a 200' zoning, the area may fill out faster but the problem is what happens when it is full? Generally this means that 1 or 2 buildings are removed to make way for a taller building as well as multiple meetings with the city to either get either a conditional use zoning increase, a rezone of the property/surrounding property or an update to the development agreement.

If we want to have the city increase the overall density of buildings, we need to have zoning set for what the city wants to become tomorrow, not a city that just redevelops the same few blocks.

Just look at the Rio Grande / Central Station area. The city lost an approximate 200' building as the city had it zoned for 120'. This area is a transit hub and growth has stymied due to the lack of zoning heights. Even today, the area has been talked about for years and a 3rd party has suggested raising the heights to allow 400' and taller buildings to take advantage of the transit accessibility. The city is still researching this increase.

This is something that the State has been trying to find a way to fix with cities along the Wasatch Front. They see the need for taller buildings, especially around rail transit stations. The biggest issue though is that all the cities want things done gradually. Start small and then grow up as demand happens. This sounds good in theory but we end up in a debilitating cycle. Let's say a city wants to allow 350' buildings next to their transit station and 200' up to 1/4 mile out, but decides to take the approach of start shorter and up-zone later. The city decides to allow for 100' buildings directly around the transit station and then 60' extending to 1/4 mile from the transit station. The area fills out quickly (say 5-7 years) because of the demand (this is similar to the Fire-clay district in Murray but taller). As the area is now built out per the zoning, the only option would be to up-zone the area, demolish and build taller in the same area.

I think that in many cases, the current zoning plan for SLC is holding back development as we have already seen. I think that areas with high frequency rail transit should have the highest zoning matching the D1 downtown. I also think that the D1 downtown area needs to expand.

Sure, most developers won't build to the limit but we would definitely see taller buildings pop-up around the city, especially near transit stops. We would also see less land-banking happening downtown as more areas would be open to allow for the tallest buildings.

As for the power district, the Miller's are wanting a planned development agreement where they will include parks and open space, various public amenities and more for the ability to build up to 400'. This is something that they could start with immediately, or never even hit in 30 years. Having the option though provides them with more flexibility in how they decide to grow and develop their properties.

We have to remember that this area will be served by 2 Trax lines in the next 10 years (a rerouted Blue line and the planned Orange line). There are also the frequent bus routes along Redwood Road and North Temple. Lastly, there is also a transit hub that is planned to be either within or directly adjacent to the project area. Not even accounting for the close proximity to I-80, this area is primed for taller development. This is something that should be encouraged rather than discouraged. Taller, denser development that is spread out will encourage additional development more so than rebuilding the same few blocks every 30 years.
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