Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

I agree that NE is pretty auto-oriented and light rail might work better especially if it branches out in the way that the trolleys do in west philly. The main trunk ROW could be down the middle of the Roosevelt Blvd. The one thing though is that would ridership be higher with a single heavy rail line that directly integrates with the BSL, or a light rail system that merely provides a free interchange? Not really sure. It's too bad that the outer two tracks on the BSL can't be easily converted to light rail; it would open the doors to a lot of usage if you were able to create branches off the main subway trunk similar to the west philly trolleys. The center two tracks could remain as they are as a heavy rail rapid transit system. The BSL is so underutilized if you take in account its infrastructure (a 4-track tunnel).




Should probably add a RR expansion out to Allentown/Bethlehem to the list. I think SEPTA is already working on an extension to Quakertown, but it would see so much more usage going all the way to the existing stations in Bethlehem and Allentown.

I'd also love to see some sort of cultural corridor usage of the city branch line, even if it's BRT. It could make sense as light rail though, terminal at broad street is right next to the old 23 trolley line that goes down 11/12. Or it could tunnel a couple blocks and re-purpose the spur, since it really isn't used/redundant to transferring at city hall. It just seems like a waste that SEPTA isn't using it for anything.

Hellertown is a thorn in any expansion to the heart of the Lehigh Valley. I would like to see SEPTA restore the Stony Creek Branch between Norristown and Lansdale and service to West Chester , Oxford , Pottsville , 103 and 104 Trolleys....23, 50,56 ,60 trolleys.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Hellertown is a thorn in any expansion to the heart of the Lehigh Valley. I would like to see SEPTA restore the Stony Creek Branch between Norristown and Lansdale and service to West Chester , Oxford , Pottsville , 103 and 104 Trolleys....23, 50,56 ,60 trolleys.

Not sure how likely any extension to Oxford would be. The tracks linking the Kennett Square-Oxford line with the Media Elwyn line have been removed...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

Not sure how likely any extension to Oxford would be. The tracks linking the Kennett Square-Oxford line with the Media Elwyn line have been removed...

ROW is somewhat intact and used for high voltage power lines.

[Busy Bee]

The absence of tracks from long dormant row's isn't really an issue as new tracks would be built anyways. All that matters is if the row is intact, errosion has not damaged it, the quantity of bridges if they exist at all that may or may not need to be addressed...

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Hellertown is a thorn in any expansion to the heart of the Lehigh Valley. I would like to see SEPTA restore the Stony Creek Branch between Norristown and Lansdale and service to West Chester , Oxford , Pottsville , 103 and 104 Trolleys....23, 50,56 ,60 trolleys.

What's the deal with Hellertown? Do they not want rail, or do they use the old ROW as a trail? Or both? I thought I read somewhere that septa still owns it.

I agree with all the other restoration ideas, especially the trolleys. I'd rather see them come back as more of a light rail operation though. Also, if the RR can't go all the way out to pottsville, at least to reading should be restored. I know NS would be an issue, but wasn't the reading mainline 4 tracks?

Honestly, I think there should be a line connecting the Lehigh valley with Reading and Harrisburg and possible tying in with NJ transit at Easton. It seems to be a pretty populated corridor.

[Busy Bee]

In a normal country this would already be reality

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

ROW is somewhat intact and used for high voltage power lines.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

The absence of tracks from long dormant row's isn't really an issue as new tracks would be built anyways. All that matters is if the row is intact, errosion has not damaged it, the quantity of bridges if they exist at all that may or may not need to be addressed...

Ah ok. I didn't realize the ROW was still in tact. Altho it looks like this had only single track as opposed to double-tracking. I guess that wouldn't be an issue either. That said, I guess a new bridge would be needed to carry the line over a reconstructed US 322 in Glen Mills...

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

What's the deal with Hellertown? Do they not want rail, or do they use the old ROW as a trail? Or both? I thought I read somewhere that septa still owns it.

I agree with all the other restoration ideas, especially the trolleys. I'd rather see them come back as more of a light rail operation though. Also, if the RR can't go all the way out to pottsville, at least to reading should be restored. I know NS would be an issue, but wasn't the reading mainline 4 tracks?

Honestly, I think there should be a line connecting the Lehigh valley with Reading and Harrisburg and possible tying in with NJ transit at Easton. It seems to be a pretty populated corridor.

I looked at that on Google Maps, and it looks like the upper part of the ROW is a trail. Regarding NJ transit, I always thought they could extend the Essex line to Easton or Bethlehem. I think the Lehigh Valley is part of the New York/Newark CSA if I'm not mistaken...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

What's the deal with Hellertown? Do they not want rail, or do they use the old ROW as a trail? Or both? I thought I read somewhere that septa still owns it.

I agree with all the other restoration ideas, especially the trolleys. I'd rather see them come back as more of a light rail operation though. Also, if the RR can't go all the way out to pottsville, at least to reading should be restored. I know NS would be an issue, but wasn't the reading mainline 4 tracks?

Honestly, I think there should be a line connecting the Lehigh valley with Reading and Harrisburg and possible tying in with NJ transit at Easton. It seems to be a pretty populated corridor.

Theres a lot of Racial issues and friction between that town and some neighboring more diverse towns and cities. Every time they face a Philadelphia school or Bethlehem school there is always some kind of racist graffiti or words found on school property or parents / students will shout racist things at the players. Its one of the few towns that has said they don't want the line restored hence why the extension will terminate at Quakertown.

[Skintreesnail]

is the 15 trolley dead?

https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20200124.html

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger...-15-streetcar/

Septa seems to say they're coming back, but most articles I've read about it sound skeptical based on past events. This really bums me out; I never relied on the 15 due to its location (I tend to use the subway surface lines a lot), but it serves several communities and feeds into the BSL. I also loved seeing the vintage trolley roll down the tracks anytime I was at the zoo or northern libs. It makes me sad to think that maybe I won't see them anymore. I really hope they don't get rid of them; they would be so popular as a tourist attraction if they ever built that proposed cultural corridor that goes from old city to the please touch museum via the parkway.



https://www.phillymag.com/news/2013/...p-attractions/

In any case, they really need to return 15 to a trolley, or the new light rail train sets they have planned.

[Busy Bee]

Well let's hope for the best. That railway age article jumps to a lot of conclusions.

[Skintreesnail]

^^^ yup, definitely on the alarmist side, but there's a similar theme in the local news outlets that appears to be based on past actions. I'd like to take SEPTA at their word, but...

Here's a petition I came across if anyone in Philly wants to sign:
https://www.5thsq.org/fix_the_15

[Nexis4Jersey]

They just finished rebuilding the Eastern tracks a week ago , then again Penndot rebuilt the entire 23 back in the early 2000s and SEPTA never restored service on it...

[DeltaNerd]

That trolley line planned for the culture corridor would gave a major boost to the city. If planned successfully with dedicate lanes that can attract a lot more tourist into the city.

[Skintreesnail]

^^^ it would be great, unfortunately, it seems SEPTA can't even get the funding it needs to move forward on basic upgrades and expansion projects. From today:

Project and development managers circled the meeting room to share information on a variety of goings-on at SEPTA, including projects of “regional significance” like trolley modernization, electric multiple-unit rail cars, and the King of Prussia rail extension. While those may draw some of the most interest, funding will be a sticking point.

“We have to find nontraditional funding sources for these projects of regional significance, because they’re just over a billion each, and we have a constrained amount of funding every year,” said Cathy Popp-McDonough, director of SEPTA’s capital budget and grant development department.

Liz Smith, assistant treasurer of strategic initiatives, who attended Wednesday’s open house to discuss trolley modernization, echoed the sentiment.

“All of the projects of regional significance are in the same boat right now, in that we do not have enough funding within the region to be able to support the majority of the money that’s needed in order to move them forward,” she said.

https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20200130.html

a couple years ago, PlanPhilly did an analysis of the SEPTA budget.
https://whyy.org/articles/septa-regi...-more-funding/

Currently, most of the funding comes from the state, largely thanks to act 89. But that source is going to be significantly less soon and we need to find other ways. It makes sense that the state continues to pitch in a large piece, since a large portion of the state's GDP comes from the region. However, the counties surrounding Philadelphia also need to pitch in more. Here's the breakdown of the operating budget from that article, and I'm sure it remains pretty much the same today:



of the 97M local contribution, 80M comes from Philadelphia. In terms of capital expenditures by mode, the largest by far is Regional Rail (following is for 10 years):



Capital budget split:



In addition to regional rail, the suburbs also benefit from several bus and trolley lines. Regional rail is extremely important to both the suburbs and Philadelphia, so it makes sense that it still sees the same level of funding. It just seems that the distribution of that funding needs to be better spread across the areas that benefit from it.

[Skintreesnail]

Petition to change pa law to allow for parking-protected bike Lanes

http://bicyclecoalition.nonprofitsoa...om/wardonboard

[DeltaNerd]

Does burying i676, the Ben Franklin entrance/exit would help make the Franklin Square area more walkable? With the Franklin Square Station reopening in 2023 how the area be improved so the area is more walkable?

[PHL10]

Septa getting rid of A and B trains on the El and increasing frequency.

The Market-Frankford Line is SEPTA’s workhorse. A ‘dramatic change’ to service starts soon.
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20200221.html

Riders will no longer have to peer to see if there’s a "A" or "B" train coming to take them where they need to go. Trains now will make all stops.

After two pilot programs, SEPTA is ending its A/B skip-stop service, a longstanding feature intended to better distribute riders around rush hour — not to act like an express train. The skip-stop service’s end impacts eight stations, mostly concentrated on the east end of the line, at the Berks, York-Dauphin, Huntingdon, Somerset, Tioga, and Church stations, as well as Millbourne and 63rd Street on the west end.

SEPTA has slowly stopped skipping stations as ridership has increased dramatically over the last two decades. At Berks, weekday ridership soared 174% between 1996 and 2016, and 133% at Church during that time. Tioga and Huntingdon saw similar figures.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by PHL10

Septa getting rid of A and B trains on the El and increasing frequency.

The Market-Frankford Line is SEPTA’s workhorse. A ‘dramatic change’ to service starts soon.
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20200221.html

I'd rather have the A/B skip stop service then overhauling the service and increasing the frequency. In a hyper perfect world, the El would become a four-track underground subway from 69th St all the way to Philadelphia Park/Parx or Neshaminy Mall with an elevated structure from Upper Darby to Darby/Colwyn.

But since we have an outdated two-track line, we have to use what we have and stick with the A/B skip stop service. What I hate about SEPTA is that it doesn't even do it's damndest towards serving it's communities the way NYC, Boston, Bay Area, Chicago, and DC does. Cancelling service and cutting lines either subway or commuter rail is not what SEPTA needs to do.

SEPTA needs to use what it has and maybe expand it's subway-surface system with lines on Whitby Ave and even extending the Lansdowne Ave line from 63rd St to Morris Park and Lancaster Ave from 52nd St to 63rd St. SEPTA can still restore service on it's regional rail system and even reintroduce the alphanumeric designations because the way SEPTA is running the regional rail system is not only confusing, but it's inefficient considering the Cynwyd line used to be part of the old R6 line until SEPTA took that away and made a shorter line, which is the reason why SEPTA doesn't run as much as it used to.

I still say that if SEPTA wants more riders, all it has to do is run 8-10 car sets in stead of the current 6 car sets excluding the Broad Ridge Spur, and revive commuter rail service to Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, Reading, Lancaster, and West Chester, and one can hope if NJ Transit can do the same by restoring the old lines from Canden and Philadelphia to Ocean City, Cape May, Salem, Pennsville, Vineland and Millville, and even another service to Toms River.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

Does burying i676, the Ben Franklin entrance/exit would help make the Franklin Square area more walkable? With the Franklin Square Station reopening in 2023 how the area be improved so the area is more walkable?

I'm not so sure if burying I-676 is gonna help but there was supposed to be a viaduct which was supposed to pass over 7th and 8th St and directly connect to Ben Franklin Bridge. Franklin Sq is going to improve no matter what, especially with new residential developments being constructed in its environs.

PATCO should expand its system from one line to five lines with another tunnel underneath Vine St and heading into 30th St Station and extending the current line from 16th St into Rittenhouse Sq and University City and as for NJ, it should have lines headed to Cherry Hill, Maple Shade, Deptford, and Woodbury.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

I looked at that on Google Maps, and it looks like the upper part of the ROW is a trail. Regarding NJ transit, I always thought they could extend the Essex line to Easton or Bethlehem. I think the Lehigh Valley is part of the New York/Newark CSA if I'm not mistaken...

Not anymore!!! The Lehigh Valley was taken out of the NYC CSA and still maintains it's own MSA. It's a blessing for PA and hopefully it can be absorbed into the Philadelphia CSA, where it really belongs.

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Getting rid of the subway portion of the trolley is a bad idea though; those trolleys get pretty high ridership now and it's mostly due to the tunnel saving a bunch of time. Also connects for free to the BSL at city hall. Personally I think we should have more light rail; I think the trolleys show that there would be a demand.

I agree on that opinion. However I still believe that the MFL is pretty outdated, considering that it's a two track line and the BSL is four track. It should've been four track but the city planners didn't have to foresight to build a system that could use similar cars like Chicago and DC. In other words, SEPTA's system is one big clusterfuck.