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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
With the move towards EV’s that has been lauded by environmentalists, the irony is that the car isn’t going anywhere.

In fact, while before you could drive a car and feel bad that you are belching emissions into the atmosphere, that changes with EV’s. People can now drive guilt free.

So in a sense, it’s great for the environment but a major setback for the effort to reduce car usage.
it depends on the location. everyone in mexico isnt going to be driving EV's. even over here in oregon, idaho ect
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
The car didn't force it, but it would never have happened hadn't private cars become ubiquitous. We need to recognize the extreme damage done to our urban environments just because everyone wants to drive a mechanical device weighing a ton or more just to pick up a shitty drive thru coffee. Would the Middle East be the shitshow that it is if our economy wasn't so dependent on fossil fuels?

Imagine, for a moment, what the world would be like with private automobile ownership severely curtailed (or at least, the driving thereof).
I don't really follow this. The problem is politicians making bad decisions and the solution is to elect politicians to make better decisions. Nobody begged U.S. mayors in the 1950s to demolish neighborhoods and build massive highways through the heart of the cities. Many/most people at the time thought the idea was batshit crazy. And they were right.
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't really follow this. The problem is politicians making bad decisions and the solution is to elect politicians to make better decisions. Nobody begged U.S. mayors in the 1950s to demolish neighborhoods and build massive highways through the heart of the cities. Many/most people at the time thought the idea was batshit crazy. And they were right.
These politicians did it because there was demand for it. That demand being easier access to suburbia.

Rarely do politicians do such drastic things without having significant public support behind it.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
The car didn't force it, but it would never have happened hadn't private cars become ubiquitous. We need to recognize the extreme damage done to our urban environments just because everyone wants to drive a mechanical device weighing a ton or more just to pick up a shitty drive thru coffee. Would the Middle East be the shitshow that it is if our economy wasn't so dependent on fossil fuels?

Imagine, for a moment, what the world would be like with private automobile ownership severely curtailed (or at least, the driving thereof).
For the vast majority of the global population, there's no realistic alternative to a car. I would be trapped without one where i live. It's not a matter of want but necessity. Again, it was short sightedness on local planners' part to allow seas of surface lots and wasteful drive-thrus. People have cars in Manhattan but you don't see that crap there.

Also with research and develop into alternative fuels and technologies such as EV's.
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SkahHigh View Post
These politicians did it because there was demand for it. That demand being easier access to suburbia.

Rarely do politicians do such drastic things without having significant public support behind it.
The mayors did it because they wanted free money from the federal government. There could not have been demand for something that didn't exist.

Also, suburbanites aren't constituencies of inner-city mayors. Why would mayors acquiesce to the demands of people that don't/can't vote for them?
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The mayors did it because they wanted free money from the federal government. There could not have been demand for something that didn't exist.

Also, suburbanites aren't constituencies of inner-city mayors. Why would mayors acquiesce to the demands of people that don't/can't vote for them?
I'm not talking only about mayors. There were senators, lawmakers, county officials pushing for all these expansions. Not just at the municipal level.

Racial motives were also behind these policies as you probably know.
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 4:44 PM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Don't blame cars for your ugly suburbs and uglier houses. There's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. Canadian auto oriented suburbs gets it all wrong on every level.
They're generally much more environmentally sound and sustainable than U.S. suburbs. But yeah, many look like they got hit with the ugly stick. The GTA has some amazingly bleak suburban landscapes.
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The problem is politicians making bad decisions and the solution is to elect politicians to make better decisions. Nobody begged U.S. mayors in the 1950s to demolish neighborhoods and build massive highways through the heart of the cities. Many/most people at the time thought the idea was batshit crazy. And they were right.
I think most politicians and planners believed that urban renewal was the right thing to do. Read planning-policy books from that era, and there's a pretty solid consensus that "blight removal" was akin to removing cancerous growth in a human.

I read a 1970's-era book about the Lodge Freeway (for those unfamiliar with Detroit, a freeway connecting downtown to the affluent NW suburbs) and there was a bit of controversy as it headed through (at the time) upper middle class Jewish and WASP areas of NW Detroit (hence the deep trench alignment in NW Detroit, as opposed to "normal" freeway layout) but it seems that most interest groups supported freeway expansion and blight removal.
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 5:08 PM
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I think the main effect of car dependence can be seen in commercial areas: offices and retail, much more than in residential areas. The suburbs can build high-rises with all parking hidden underground or houses with garages along alleyways in the back, no problem. It's the surface parking surrounding malls and power centres and office buildings and that have ravaged historic downtowns across the US such as Little Rock that are harder to fix without a serious commitment to getting people out of their cars, including a serious investment in transit. The lower car dependence in Canada compared to the US may not be so obvious when looking at the design of houses in the suburbs, but it can definitely be seen in the amount of surface parking and parking garages in the inner cities. And unlike snout houses, the inner cities being taken over by parking lots and parking garages is much more than just an aesthetic problem.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I think most politicians and planners believed that urban renewal was the right thing to do. Read planning-policy books from that era, and there's a pretty solid consensus that "blight removal" was akin to removing cancerous growth in a human.

I read a 1970's-era book about the Lodge Freeway (for those unfamiliar with Detroit, a freeway connecting downtown to the affluent NW suburbs) and there was a bit of controversy as it headed through (at the time) upper middle class Jewish and WASP areas of NW Detroit (hence the deep trench alignment in NW Detroit, as opposed to "normal" freeway layout) but it seems that most interest groups supported freeway expansion and blight removal.
Slum clearing became the political language used to sell the idea to skeptical urban dwellers, but that was later on. The idea was unpopular among city dwellers in the beginning, but mayors wanted in on the free money (and jobs) from the feds that were being poured into rural areas to build the interstate highway system. In fact, Eisenhower himself was against it:

Quote:
[The President] went on to say that the matter of running Interstate routes through the congested parts of the cities was entirely against his original concept and wishes; that he never anticipated that the program would turn out this way… [He] was certainly not aware of any concept of using the program to build up an extensive intra-city route network as part of the program he sponsored.

https://seattletransitblog.com/2012/...hrough-cities/
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 6:49 PM
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The problem isn't the automobile itself; the problem is auto-centric planning. There's also (as evidenced by the ugliness seen in the first post) the wider problem of late-20th century decline in aesthetic standards which isn't strictly related to cars.

Pre-automobile cities are probably the pinnacle of urbanity - and for that reason their preservation is essential - but the reality is that cars aren't going anywhere now, and they serve a pretty vital role for transportation of goods and people. Rather than wishing they were never invented, let's instead consider ways that they can be better incorporated into the urban fabric, while also giving residents the ability to get around the city by multiple other means of transportation.

I think Japanese cities can teach us some useful lessons on how the automobile can be incorporated into modern cities without having them overwhelm or detract from their urbanity. Most newer housing has off-street parking, parkades & underground parking are common, expressways weave through cities - yet they're still highly urban, and dense enough to be walkable and support high-quality transit service. They're car-friendly without being auto-centric.



https://www.trendir.com/futuristic-o...nspired-tok-1/


https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-da...-54150983.html
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
With an alley, sure. Otherwise you're simply turning half your yard into a driveway the length of your property.

Rear garages with a shared driveway between the houses are pretty common in streetcar suburban Toronto. Like this: https://goo.gl/maps/iprK9UF9NYnK23Yg7

Bringing it back to my post above, stuff like this is a good way to accommodate cars in a way that isn't ugly or detrimental to the neighbourhood's urbanity.

Heck, I'm even fine with the early post-war era's small street-fronting side garages: https://goo.gl/maps/xYEQqRPpbwsSWASD8
And of course, garages at the bottom don't have to be bad either: https://goo.gl/maps/MhvmQdL6XHYBLYww7
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 7:03 PM
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japan and the us.. the us is big and spread out, japan is small and every inch is used for living. its not the car, its more the land.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 7:55 PM
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The USA/Canada are big and every inch is used for the car.

yeehaaww

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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 8:36 PM
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we can only go forward, we arent rich enough to make a redneck country again. old fashion is better instead of redneck. i was just making a joke.

Last edited by dubu; Feb 26, 2021 at 9:05 PM.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2021, 2:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I don't really follow this. The problem is politicians making bad decisions and the solution is to elect politicians to make better decisions. Nobody begged U.S. mayors in the 1950s to demolish neighborhoods and build massive highways through the heart of the cities. Many/most people at the time thought the idea was batshit crazy. And they were right.
Well nobody with a real say gave a fuck, and the politicians reflected that. Most still dont give a fuck.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2021, 4:27 AM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
With the move towards EV’s that has been lauded by environmentalists, the irony is that the car isn’t going anywhere.

In fact, while before you could drive a car and feel bad that you are belching emissions into the atmosphere, that changes with EV’s. People can now drive guilt free.

So in a sense, it’s great for the environment but a major setback for the effort to reduce car usage.
Who knows. Maybe if there's a marginal cost to car usage people will try to use cars more efficiently and maybe even bike/walk if the distance is short?

But more significantly, it will greatly reduce the need for parking, so no more garages/snout houses, driveways, parking lots, narrower roads, reduced front setbacks, etc.
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