Downtown Subway

[Shilo Rune 96]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Seattle

Speaking of Seattle, does anyone know if their light-rail runs this slow? I understand most of the already built rail is underground. The Capital Hill and University of WA segments are also going to be underground. Could they have learned from our mistakes?

My brother owns a house in Beacon Hill (http://goo.gl/maps/0nmdW), and commutes to downtown very quickly because there's an underground light rail stop three blocks away.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Shilo Rune 96

Speaking of Seattle, does anyone know if their light-rail runs this slow? I understand most of the already built rail is underground. The Capital Hill and University of WA segments are also going to be underground. Could they have learned from our mistakes?

My brother owns a house in Beacon Hill (http://goo.gl/maps/0nmdW), and commutes to downtown very quickly because there's an underground light rail stop three blocks away.

Based on Wikipedia, from Westlake to Stadium (5 stops total) it takes about 8 minutes, and from Westlake to SeaTac (13 stops) in 36 minutes, which is 15.6 miles long.

Portland has many more stops along each of its lines than Seattle does, and while Seattle also has a very young system compared to Portland, Portland has a daily ridership of 130K while Seattle has a daily ridership of 30K.

[bvpcvm]

My immediate thought was, no way, given that the Seattle line doesn't have all the tight turns MAX has. But (hoping my math was right) I was a bit surprised:

• Central Link travels 15.6 miles in 48 minutes, or 19.5 miles/hr.
• MAX blue line goes 33 miles in 99 minutes, or 20 miles/hr.
• MAX red line goes 25.5 miles in 67 minutes, or 22.83 miles/hr.
• MAX yellow line (from Rose Quarter to Expo Ctr) goes 5.8 miles in 20 minutes, or 17.4 miles/hr.
• MAX green line (from Gateway to Clackamas) goes 6.5 miles in 19 minutes, or 20.52 miles/hr.

That's using line lengths from Wikipedia and schedules from Soundtransit.org and TriMet.

[65MAX]

That surprises me too, given it takes 25 minutes for just the 3 mile stretch from Goose Hollow to Holladay Park. So obviously outside of downtown, the Red and Blue lines are pretty quick.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

My immediate thought was, no way, given that the Seattle line doesn't have all the tight turns MAX has. But (hoping my math was right) I was a bit surprised:

• Central Link travels 15.6 miles in 48 minutes, or 19.5 miles/hr.
• MAX blue line goes 33 miles in 99 minutes, or 20 miles/hr.
• MAX red line goes 25.5 miles in 67 minutes, or 22.83 miles/hr.
• MAX yellow line (from Rose Quarter to Expo Ctr) goes 5.8 miles in 20 minutes, or 17.4 miles/hr.
• MAX green line (from Gateway to Clackamas) goes 6.5 miles in 19 minutes, or 20.52 miles/hr.

That's using line lengths from Wikipedia and schedules from Soundtransit.org and TriMet.

Originally Posted by 65MAX

That surprises me too, given it takes 25 minutes for just the 3 mile stretch from Goose Hollow to Holladay Park. So obviously outside of downtown, the Red and Blue lines are pretty quick.

Much of the added time that people have an issue with is through downtown, which my argument against this has always been that people riding the MAX to downtown are going to one of the stops in downtown rather than riding through it and taking the full impact of that commute time.

If someone's destination is Big Pink or Pioneer Courthouse Square, then it doesn't matter to them how long it takes to get from the Rose Garden to Goose Hollow.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by Shilo Rune 96

Speaking of Seattle, does anyone know if their light-rail runs this slow? I understand most of the already built rail is underground. The Capital Hill and University of WA segments are also going to be underground. Could they have learned from our mistakes?

My brother owns a house in Beacon Hill (http://goo.gl/maps/0nmdW), and commutes to downtown very quickly because there's an underground light rail stop three blocks away.

No, most of it is above ground - some elevated and some at-grade that runs in the center median. They did tunnel some under Beacon Hill, I believe, and they ran it through the Seattle bus tunnel, which was built back in the 80s, when construction prices were much cheaper than today.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

No, most of it is above ground - some elevated and some at-grade that runs in the center median. They did tunnel some under Beacon Hill, I believe, and they ran it through the Seattle bus tunnel, which was built back in the 80s, when construction prices were much cheaper than today.

That was a smart move for Seattle, though I think a smarter move would have been to build a subways system back in 1910.

[SEA-TOWN]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

My immediate thought was, no way, given that the Seattle line doesn't have all the tight turns MAX has. But (hoping my math was right) I was a bit surprised:

• Central Link travels 15.6 miles in 48 minutes, or 19.5 miles/hr.
• MAX blue line goes 33 miles in 99 minutes, or 20 miles/hr.
• MAX red line goes 25.5 miles in 67 minutes, or 22.83 miles/hr.
• MAX yellow line (from Rose Quarter to Expo Ctr) goes 5.8 miles in 20 minutes, or 17.4 miles/hr.
• MAX green line (from Gateway to Clackamas) goes 6.5 miles in 19 minutes, or 20.52 miles/hr.

That's using line lengths from Wikipedia and schedules from Soundtransit.org and TriMet.

Not sure where you got the 48 minute travel time from. It's either 38 or 39 minutes depending on which schedule you look at. At 39 minutes its 24mph flat. It was actually originally scheduled at 36 minutes but was adjusted as there are frequently delays in the tunnel due to the buses, particularly after the ride free area was eliminated. It still can do it in 36 minutes, you just need some luck. Once the buses are removed the time will probably be adjusted back to 36 minutes.

[Eco_jt]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

This issue has more to do with you not living near a light rail stop, and then combine it with a light rail station not being at your employment, thus needing more added time to commute. Then top that off that you are driving a reverse commute and typically going the opposite direction of traffic.

The MAX is better at getting people into the city for work commutes than the opposite. The reason why is in the suburban areas more people drive to the station to take it downtown and then are able to walk to work. The reverse you have to rely on shuttle services along with walking time which adds to a commute.

Yes, that is part of the issue...no arguments here.

Originally Posted by zilfondel

2) The central city does not include the largest employers in the metro area, Intel, Nike, and OHSU. None of those are serviced by the MAX, although OHSU will be indirectly linked via the tram when the Orange line opens in SoWa.

Zinfondel nailed it though. If we wanted the best system or a really efficient one, we would have planned MAX around the largest employers in the region.

Not really complaining though, I love the public transit system that we do have. It's really convenient to have as an option for when you need or want to go somewhere but don't want to drive.

Who knows, maybe Washington county will surprise us with PRT and an aggressive AmberGlen development plan.

As for subways through the central city...like others have mentioned, while it would be really really nice to have, the costs are probably too high for us to see it anytime soon.

[65MAX]

Originally Posted by SEA-TOWN

Not sure where you got the 48 minute travel time from. It's either 38 or 39 minutes depending on which schedule you look at. At 39 minutes its 24mph flat.

That sounds more likely. I suspect without the tunnel, that time could have been an additional 10-15 minutes.

[davehogan]

As far as the downtown subway, during TriMet or Metro's HCT surveys to help prioritize future corridors it was an option, and I'm pretty sure it came in at third place (after the SW corridor and Powell/Foster) in the polling for priorities.

It's definitely on TriMet's radar. The Steel Bridge is at it's operational capacity, it just can't carry more trains. That's part of why the Orange Line isn't an extension of the Yellow Line, it's going to have to be a mix of Yellow and Green Line trains because they just can't add any more trips during peak hours over it.

So other than extending existing lines or new service that doesn't have to use it (SW corridor and Powell are next up for a reason) they have to find some other solution to running all the trains over the Steel Bridge if they want more capacity on the existing lines.

My personal preference would be to put the Blue Line underground with four car trains, keep the Red Line on the current surface alignment, put the Green Line underground and run it to Beaverton/Hillsboro also, and merge the Yellow with the Orange, then have the SW Corridor service overlay over the Steel Bridge and up Interstate as well.

Powell in my best guess will likely be BRT, so it could keep operating on whatever route is selected.

[davehogan]

I meant to also mention that due to the politics around light rail it seems likely that the downtown tunnel could move up in line over expansion of MAX to Oregon City, or maybe even the Southwest Corridor.

Powell might be the next thing, and that just seems like an obvious place to put BRT. There's not much available ROW for LRT, but having an express bus that only stops at the major transfer points and can jump right onto that shiny new transit bridge? And it wouldn't necessarily need to deal with any suburbs that might vote to block it?

The downtown tunnel also has the advantage of not needing any suburban support.

[dubu]

it wont happen for a while. you need longer lines for longer trains. i dont see the lines going out to oregon city unless they can develop on the old landfill.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by davehogan

As far as the downtown subway, during TriMet or Metro's HCT surveys to help prioritize future corridors it was an option, and I'm pretty sure it came in at third place (after the SW corridor and Powell/Foster) in the polling for priorities.

It's definitely on TriMet's radar. The Steel Bridge is at it's operational capacity, it just can't carry more trains. That's part of why the Orange Line isn't an extension of the Yellow Line, it's going to have to be a mix of Yellow and Green Line trains because they just can't add any more trips during peak hours over it.

So other than extending existing lines or new service that doesn't have to use it (SW corridor and Powell are next up for a reason) they have to find some other solution to running all the trains over the Steel Bridge if they want more capacity on the existing lines.

My personal preference would be to put the Blue Line underground with four car trains, keep the Red Line on the current surface alignment, put the Green Line underground and run it to Beaverton/Hillsboro also, and merge the Yellow with the Orange, then have the SW Corridor service overlay over the Steel Bridge and up Interstate as well.

Powell in my best guess will likely be BRT, so it could keep operating on whatever route is selected.

If it were to ever happen, I like this idea. Also as I have mentioned before, eventually we are going to need a new bridge or something major to happen for the Steel Bridge. I would like to see a new transit bridge added on the northside of downtown.

[dubu]

so only having the red line trains be long? if the green line was to go from vancouver to oregon city then that could have long trains too

[urbanlife]

If there were a subway line built through downtown, I would think it would start at the Jefferson Circle in Goose Hollow, run down Jefferson, turn north on 4th, run up downtown to old town, then under the river and meet up with the light rail line that runs through the Banfield.

Though with that said, it would just be light rail trains running on that line and would probably me 4 car trains like the one in the photo.

I would also imagine that 1-2 car streetcar lines could also run on this same subway line to handle more streetcar lines through downtown.

I will admit it would be something cool to see in the city, but the cost of constructing a 3 miles subway tunnel through downtown, under the 405, under the Willamette, under the convention center probably would cost too much to ever really pencil out until there is a huge demand for more than 2 car light rail trains.

But if there were a downtown subway line built, that is what I would want to see. Plus at the intersection of Jefferson and 4th, there could be an interchange there to allow another tunnel to be constructed headed towards Powell and the Orange line for those two areas to be connected by streetcar and 4 car trains.

[hat]

If we increase train length, it follows every station that those trains service have to be lengthened. This would be fantastic for Gateway through Beaverton TC (running a short Blue line, for example).

I don't know the demand for these stations, particularly during rush hour. Otherwise, lengthening trains (and a subway in general) may be premature, i.e. too little demand. There is demand, however, for a MAX on Powell, which should be the priority. See Portland Afoot data:

http://portlandafoot.org/w/Bus_rankings

With a ring around East Portland, much of the bus travel and connections from East Portland (Buses 9, 4, as well as 17, 10 and 14 to some extent) can circumvent local traffic close-in via a MAX. Sorry for repetition if you've seen it, but just in case:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/101004589@N07/9631057190/

It's disheartening to hear so much talk about BRT for this corridor, which when considered for use in inner-city traffic (sans ROW), is particularly useless. After this MAX line data can be gathered for the need for a downtown subway.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by hat

If we increase train length, it follows every station that those trains service have to be lengthened. This would be fantastic for Gateway through Beaverton TC (running a short Blue line, for example).

Just wanted to point out that this means the existing Washington Park station would have to be lengthened too. Which means either shutting down the tunnel for a few months, or having trains share one platform for a while longer - in any case, lots of disruption. And $$$.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

Just wanted to point out that this means the existing Washington Park station would have to be lengthened too. Which means either shutting down the tunnel for a few months, or having trains share one platform for a while longer - in any case, lots of disruption. And $$$.

That would definitely be a tough one, it would require shutting down a platform at a time to extend the platform. Obviously it would be costly, but so would a subway tunnel through downtown for longer light rail trains.

[dubu]

one thing that would be good with long trains is there would be more space between stops. half a mile apart stops are annoying