[Halifax] St. Patrick's Alexandra | ? m | ? fl | Proposed

[someone123]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

Lastly, I don't understand while you keep holding onto this student project like it actually has meaning on the sites future.

It was a community consultation exercise. They're not binding demands.

But I do think there's a valid question why every previously HRM owned site begins as a community development exercise or with the presumption that developers need to pay in a special way for these sites. Instead I think it is better to start by asking what a neighbourhood needs.

How many millions would HRM have collected from this site had it been quietly developed as a market rate project many years ago? And what's the #1 thing people living around here would actually want that is missing as a public or private amenity? Not just stuff that seems like an okay way to use this particular parcel?

[The Crow Whisperer]

Great questions someone123.

The Needle Exchange, Friendship Centre, Health Clinic and Baptist Church have done a great job keeping the former school a blighted wasteland with their lawfare.

If Mr. Met ledge had been able to develop it 10 years ago then we would have millions for the tax base instead of an albatross around taxpayers necks. Valuable services and amenities instead of a derelict building. High quality apartments condos and airb2b, instead we have a housing shortage.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by someone123

It was a community consultation exercise. They're not binding demands.

But I do think there's a valid question why every previously HRM owned site begins as a community development exercise or with the presumption that developers need to pay in a special way for these sites. Instead I think it is better to start by asking what a neighbourhood needs.

How many millions would HRM have collected from this site had it been quietly developed as a market rate project many years ago? And what's the #1 thing people living around here would actually want that is missing as a public or private amenity? Not just stuff that seems like an okay way to use this particular parcel?

I would put a Grocery store at the top of the list followed by maybe a Bank.
Perhaps a satellite NSCC campus of some sort to actually mentor and directly train any local citizens that want to better their education.

Perhaps the private capital that has quietly helped the Hope Blooms enterprise, has educated the North enders that that is the way the wider world works?

[The Crow Whisperer]

No they do not need a grocery store despite the protestariat crying Food Desert. There was a grocery store. The Community Carrot went out of business after 8 months due to lack of demand.

Cant remember last time I went to a physical bank. Use online banking.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

Great questions someone123.

The Needle Exchange, Friendship Centre, Health Clinic and Baptist Church have done a great job keeping the former school a blighted wasteland with their lawfare.

If Mr. Met ledge had been able to develop it 10 years ago then we would have millions for the tax base instead of an albatross around taxpayers necks. Valuable services and amenities instead of a derelict building. High quality apartments condos and airb2b, instead we have a housing shortage.

Metledge is on the record somewhere saying he had no plans to develop the site for 10 years anyway. He's tied up with the Trinity site and Fenwick mess.

This site was sold without any conditions, so there is absolutely nothing stopping him from proceeding at any time with redevelopment. He engaged the community because he wants a rezoning to increase the land value x10 and thinks it would be more likely to be approved by council if he could show community support. He's the one trying to do a deal with community not the other way around.

Otherwise, there are by-right development permissions already on the site. Metledge already won by paying nothing for the land. Anything more is a discretionary approval and speculative with a level of risk. Your notion that Metledge is somehow a victim here is absolutely ludicrous.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by planarchy

This site was sold without any conditions, so there is absolutely nothing stopping him from proceeding at any time with redevelopment. He engaged the community because he wants a rezoning to increase the land value x10 and thinks it would be more likely to be approved by council if he could show community support. He's the one trying to do a deal with community not the other way around.

Aren't there a bunch of sites that got effectively up-zoned by the Centre Plan, relative to the old as-of-right zoning, where there are no particular expectations that the owner or future developer would contribute anything beyond taxes and fees?

The idea that a property owner should or could offer up goodies to butter up council seems wrong. Either the development's appropriate for the site or it isn't, and HRM already raises money for public services though taxes and fees.

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

The Needle Exchange, Friendship Centre, Health Clinic and Baptist Church have done a great job keeping the former school a blighted wasteland with their lawfare.

If Mr. Met ledge had been able to develop it 10 years ago then we would have millions for the tax base instead of an albatross around taxpayers necks. Valuable services and amenities instead of a derelict building. High quality apartments condos and airb2b, instead we have a housing shortage.

So if I understand, you're saying that HRM should have refused to abide by a 2012 NS Supreme Court ruling and completed the sale in bad faith. Leaving taxpayers on the hook for the settlements and legal fees from all lawsuits that would eventually follow.
All just to build short term Airb2b units that actually have contributed to the housing shortage.
Lawfare" as you put it, is a how rule of law works. I'm always surprised by how little that concept means to people that espouse law and order rhetoric.

The worst part is I'm in favour of this development and agree it could have went more smoothly but definitely not for all the same reasons as everyone else it seems.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by someone123

Aren't there a bunch of sites that got effectively up-zoned by the Centre Plan, relative to the old as-of-right zoning, where there are no particular expectations that the owner or future developer would contribute anything beyond taxes and fees?

The idea that a property owner should or could offer up goodies to butter up council seems wrong. Either the development's appropriate for the site or it isn't, and HRM already raises money for public services though taxes and fees.

It was upzoned through the centre plan from Parkland to HR1 or HR2. He can do a few hundred units easily byright on the site as is. He can submit for a permit tomorrow. But he wants to build 600+ units. It's not about buttering up Council, but a property owner who wants to amend the plan, a plan less than 2 years old. You need a reason for that and public benefit can be one of those reasons. This isn't anything unusual, whether through density bonusing in Downtown Halifax, Section 37s in Toronto and increasingly CBAs and contract agreements in Vancouver and elsewhere.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

No they do not need a grocery store despite the protestariat crying Food Desert. There was a grocery store. The Community Carrot went out of business after 8 months due to lack of demand.

Cant remember last time I went to a physical bank. Use online banking.

Yes you and I bank online but do you think most of the residents of the North End do? Gottingen until recently reminded me of Sydney C.B.. 1978 all over again.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by planarchy

It was upzoned through the centre plan from Parkland to HR1 or HR2. He can do a few hundred units easily byright on the site as is. He can submit for a permit tomorrow. But he wants to build 600+ units. It's not about buttering up Council, but a property owner who wants to amend the plan, a plan less than 2 years old. You need a reason for that and public benefit can be one of those reasons. This isn't anything unusual, whether through density bonusing in Downtown Halifax, Section 37s in Toronto and increasingly CBAs and contract agreements in Vancouver and elsewhere.

HRM by Design has density bonuses, sure, but that's not ad hoc. You get a certain density bonus in exchange for a certain value of public benefit.

I understand that public benefit can change the calculus and can be a positive for the community, but for the most part it has little impact on how much population can be supported in a given area. Nobody in this thread seems to be arguing that this area is too crowded, does not have enough amenities, or has no capacity for foot traffic or cars, or causes wind or shadow effects, and the developer will somehow build amenities to counterbalance or eliminate those negative effects. There's just a tenuous notion that more density implies that the developer had better bring something to the table, and perhaps that he needs to "convince" the community or council to let him build a certain level of density. I understand how that could be seen as a kind of municipal "shakedown".

I am also unsure that it serves the needs of the municipality to be rigid about limiting density when there is a housing shortage. I doubt that the current housing market was predicted when the bulk of the material in the Centre Plan was generated. It was kicked off in what, 2011?

I could imagine more compelling arguments for public benefit, e.g. people in the area would lose some amenity though the redevelopment. Or maybe even just some renters would be displaced. But I don't think that's the argument here.

[The Crow Whisperer]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Yes you and I bank online but do you think most of the residents of the North End do? Gottingen until recently reminded me of Sydney C.B.. 1978 all over again.

You think residents of North End are so incapable of getting shit together they can't use their smartphones to bank online? You have low expectations. How do you know I'm not a resident of North End?

[Hali87]

What do you think the residents there want/need then?

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

No they do not need a grocery store despite the protestariat crying Food Desert. There was a grocery store. The Community Carrot went out of business after 8 months due to lack of demand.

Cant remember last time I went to a physical bank. Use online banking.

The community carrot was pretty over-hyped, but one of the reasons I think it didn’t do well is because it didn’t offer everything needed from a grocery store. The carrot was basically an over glorified veggie stand, you would still need to visit the Oxford Sobeys for most of your staples. The African and Korean marts do well because they offer exclusive items popular in the community. The increasing density of the area could make it an attractive location for something like a No Frills.

Sure, online banking is more common nowadays but we still see new branches pop up and there’s always the occasional reason to go in. BMO and TD on SGR were completely revamped a few years ago.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

You think residents of North End are so incapable of getting shit together they can't use their smartphones to bank online? You have low expectations. How do you know I'm not a resident of North End?

Your worldview doesn’t really fit the stereotype of a North-ender. You also say “they” instead of “we”.

I’ve known some RCN sailors who lived in the area temporarily, but they would probably have a better comportment than what we’re seeing in this thread.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

"the Cum-YOO-nity"

What kind of person are you trying to imitate here?

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

trendy social justice causes de jour

The correct term is “du jour”= of the day
“de jour”= from day, which doesn’t work here.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by The Crow Whisperer

High quality apartments condos and airb2b, instead we have a housing shortage.

Never heard of airb2b, is it affordable? I know Airbnb is great for tourism but horrible for affordable housing.

[someone123]

I remember some coverage of the lack of services around Gottingen that had some concrete discussion of the economics of full-service grocery stores. I think the estimate at the time was that something like 8,000 more residents would be needed to support a store there. At the time that sounded like a lot, but these days it no longer does.

4th Ave in Vancouver has a few small yet full scale grocery stores of a type that would probably do well in the North End, e.g. urban format IGA at 4th and Collingwood. I have heard Sobeys has done a smaller format in Canada (Ontario and Alberta?) but I guess not yet in NS. For being the "home turf" of Sobeys, NS has some of the more out of date seeming stores.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by someone123

I remember some coverage of the lack of services around Gottingen that had some concrete discussion of the economics of full-service grocery stores. I think the estimate at the time was that something like 8,000 more residents would be needed to support a store there. At the time that sounded like a lot, but these days it no longer does.

4th Ave in Vancouver has a few small yet full scale grocery stores of a type that would probably do well in the North End, e.g. urban format IGA at 4th and Collingwood. I have heard Sobeys has done a smaller format in Canada (Ontario and Alberta?) but I guess not yet in NS. For being the "home turf" of Sobeys, NS has some of the more out of date seeming stores.

It’s nice to see a tangible estimate of what would be needed to support a grocery store in the area. I’ve visited an urban format No Frills in st. James town, I thought it would be a logical fit for the North End because of the more affordable foods, and it would give Loblaws a foothold against the Oxford Sobeys (even though I prefer Empire to Loblaws).

On a side note, Sobeys reigns supreme here in Waterloo. Stores under the Loblaws name are more common in Kitchener and Cambridge. I’ve noticed that Sobeys is considered more high-end here, compared to home where it’s considered average.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

The community carrot was pretty over-hyped, but one of the reasons I think it didn’t do well is because it didn’t offer everything needed from a grocery store. The carrot was basically an over glorified veggie stand, you would still need to visit the Oxford Sobeys for most of your staples. The African and Korean marts do well because they offer exclusive items popular in the community. The increasing density of the area could make it an attractive location for something like a No Frills.

Sure, online banking is more common nowadays but we still see new branches pop up and there’s always the occasional reason to go in. BMO and TD on SGR were completely revamped a few years ago.

The Community Carrot’s location was also horrible. It really only serviced the Falkland Street area.

I feel sometimes that initiatives like these are so desperate to take shape that they sometimes overlook important considerations such as location or size. It seems as though the people driving the community carrot jumped at the first spot that became available, or that was cheapest.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Summerville

The Community Carrot’s location was also horrible. It really only serviced the Falkland Street area.

I feel sometimes that initiatives like these are so desperate to take shape that they sometimes overlook important considerations such as location or size. It seems as though the people driving the community carrot jumped at the first spot that became available, or that was cheapest.

That’s an important point I hadn’t considered, and makes sense when I think about it. Esri offers free guides on choosing an optimal store site using GIS software; they describe it as a “beginner” exercise. Any Dalhousie or NSCC student with some experience in geomatics could have volunteered to calculate a good location. Perhaps they had already done such an analysis, but discarded it because of haste or costs like you said.