The future: enclavism or the melting pot?

[benp]

I never thought that the melting pot was a "dream of liberalism" - that sounds like some revisionist bullshit, since use of the term melting pot in that context may have been around since the 1700s. The concept seems like the opposite of liberalism to me, as it is a form of conformity rather than the classic liberal principle of individualism.

Gumbo pot is more descriptive. Every bite is different, and new ingredients are added all the time. And the country is not a single pot. Neither melting pot or enclave can be applied to every place, every person, or every time. Some communities may choose live behind walls with locked doors, but that doesn't represent California, or the country, as a whole.

[10023]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

That's irrelevant, as by the 2nd or 3rd generation, the descendants of immigrants - be they Punjabi or Guatemalan or European - are still characterised by their shared North American culture moreso than that of their parents or grandparents.

This is a very idealised Canadian view.

[10023]

Originally Posted by eschaton

This is a bit of an aside, but it always irks me that in science-fiction shows (like say Star Trek) there is a future where interracial marriage is completely and totally accepted, and yet there are still a ton of visibly black/white/etc. people around, and very few people who actually look interracial.

There's been ample examples across human history that in any situation where you don't either have geographic segregation (my tribe over here, your tribe over there) or social segregation (a caste system, more or less) what you end up with is everyone intermixing until there's no real "diversity" to speak of because everyone has been averaged out.

True. And those people are often quite attractive on average, like the Spanish (in Spain) being a mix of Celtic, Latin, German and Arab features.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by 10023

This is a very idealised Canadian view.

No, it's exactly how it works in America as well.

Everyone I've ever know who was 3rd generation (or later) Mexican-American spoke Spanish so poorly they were afraid to even use it - if they spoke it at all.

[IrishIllini]

^ No different than any other ethnic group. Why do people expect 3rd or 4th+ generation Americans to speak Spanish because they are Latino? How many 4th generation Italians speak Italian? Polish? Chinese?

Expected that people would stop being conversational in a language that isn't required for every day life.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

^ No different than any other ethnic group. Why do people expect 3rd or 4th+ generation Americans to speak Spanish because they are Latino? How many 4th generation Italians speak Italian? Polish? Chinese?

Expected that people would stop being conversational in a language that isn't required for every day life.

My point is every 3rd+ generation immigrant I've known has fundamentally been assimilated - even if they aren't visibly white.

I'd actually even argue that black immigrants assimilate - they just assimilate into black culture rather than white culture. Like, I've known children/grandchildren of Dominican immigrants who self-identified as black, much to their parents disdain.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by kingkirbythe....

Not so much a melting pot, but more of a tossed salad.

The maps (which the links won't let me imbed) show an ethnic map of LA and the Bay Area which looks like a mosaic and that the article mentions that:

"These demographic trends are neither the strict segregation of the past nor the blended society that was the dream of liberalism but, rather, a quilt-like patchwork of many different enclaves. The LA Times has a diversity index for Los Angeles neighborhoods and, as with the Bay Area’s segregation map, we can see that the most diverse areas are, generally, either middle-income areas with a high concentration of new apartment construction or areas that are undergoing a transformation such as gentrification, or attracting a new demographic."



https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism

[RST500]

Originally Posted by eschaton

This is a bit of an aside, but it always irks me that in science-fiction shows (like say Star Trek) there is a future where interracial marriage is completely and totally accepted, and yet there are still a ton of visibly black/white/etc. people around, and very few people who actually look interracial.

There's been ample examples across human history that in any situation where you don't either have geographic segregation (my tribe over here, your tribe over there) or social segregation (a caste system, more or less) what you end up with is everyone intermixing until there's no real "diversity" to speak of because everyone has been averaged out.

That was the dream of liberalism from the 60s, only boomer liberals in California still hold onto it, but it is not the reality of current trends.

"In response to greater demographic fragmentation, the woke left has pushed for policies geared towards racial equity such as a UC Berkeley study offering solutions to diversify Bay Area neighborhoods. The only counter position is from conservatives, who are marginal in California, with calls for assimilation like the English Only Movement. Both the equity agenda of woke liberalism and conservative’s assimilationist model would not work in a place as immensely diverse as California. Both sides are stuck in the past (the logic of the 60s Civil Rights Movement for liberals or a desire to return to the America of an earlier point, for conservatives) and offer a false paradigm that resists the inevitable trend of enclavism as part and parcel of a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic future."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism

[Docere]

Originally Posted by eschaton

My point is every 3rd+ generation immigrant I've known has fundamentally been assimilated - even if they aren't visibly white.

I'd actually even argue that black immigrants assimilate - they just assimilate into black culture rather than white culture. Like, I've known children/grandchildren of Dominican immigrants who self-identified as black, much to their parents disdain.

Yes, Black immigrants integrate into the AA community.

I don't think people realize how many famous Black New Yorkers are of West Indian descent. They're just seen as "regular" African Americans.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by RST500

That was the dream of liberalism from the 60s, only boomer liberals in California still hold onto it, but it is not the reality of current trends.

"In response to greater demographic fragmentation, the woke left has pushed for policies geared towards racial equity such as a UC Berkeley study offering solutions to diversify Bay Area neighborhoods. The only counter position is from conservatives, who are marginal in California, with calls for assimilation like the English Only Movement. Both the equity agenda of woke liberalism and conservative’s assimilationist model would not work in a place as immensely diverse as California. Both sides are stuck in the past (the logic of the 60s Civil Rights Movement for liberals or a desire to return to the America of an earlier point, for conservatives) and offer a false paradigm that resists the inevitable trend of enclavism as part and parcel of a multi-cultural and multi-ethnic future."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism

You mentioned the same substack in your OP. I don't know who the writer is, but he appears to have particular ideological axes to grind - and a lot of what he says is more-or-less unsupported assertions (not much data to back it up).

It's not surprising that Cali has developed more ethic enclaves as time goes on, since it's become less white and continues to attract large numbers of new immigrants (who are much more likely to settle down into ethnic neighborhoods). But I see no reason to presume the majority of Whites born in Santa Monica, blacks from Inglewood, Chinese from Diamond Bar, or Latinos from Boyle Heights will still be in those neighborhoods 30 years from now.

[Crawford]

I think present-day CA is arguably the strongest repudiation to the white replacement fearmongering. CA is overwhelmingly nonwhite, right now. It's America decades from now.

CA feels white in areas that are quite nonwhite, if that makes sense, again, because most assimilated Hispanics are culturally/appearance-wise indistinguishable from non-Hispanic whites, and Asians also have very high rates of intermarriage.

So gateway enclaves will be culturally distinct, but once you get into sprawl tract home neighborhoods, almost everyone who isn't black is "white". Orange County still feels very white, despite being over 60% nonwhite. 2070 U.S. will still likely be a white majority society, it will just have a large share of whites with some Asian and Latin American roots.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think present-day CA is arguably the strongest repudiation to the white replacement fearmongering. CA is overwhelmingly nonwhite, right now. It's America decades from now.

CA feels white in areas that are quite nonwhite, if that makes sense, again, because most assimilated Hispanics are culturally/appearance-wise indistinguishable from non-Hispanic whites, and Asians also have very high rates of intermarriage.

So gateway enclaves will be culturally distinct, but once you get into sprawl tract home neighborhoods, almost everyone who isn't black is "white". Orange County still feels very white, despite being over 60% nonwhite. 2070 U.S. will still likely be a white majority society, it will just have a large share of whites with some Asian and Latin American roots.

This. 100 years ago, Italians weren't considered white until they were. LIkewise with groups not considered 'white' right now but probably will in the future; hispanics and non-hispanic whites will ultimately blur.

[IrishIllini]

Your average Latino doesn't look "white," but this conversation is just highlighting how race is nothing more than a social construct that gets bent to fit an agenda. I've met Spaniards, Italians, and Greeks that I initially believed to be Latino-American, Arabic, or North African, but self-identify as white.

Latino-Americans will likely become more anglicized on the whole, but given our proximity to Latin America it's likely that many Hispanic Americans will retain stronger connections to their ancestral homelands/culture than Americans who are primarily of African, Asian, or European descent. Especially in the west and southwest. That'll always be a different vibe than the typical "white" American that traces their lineage back to the British and Irish Isles and the Germanic and Nordic countries of Europe.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by eschaton

You mentioned the same substack in your OP. I don't know who the writer is, but he appears to have particular ideological axes to grind - and a lot of what he says is more-or-less unsupported assertions (not much data to back it up).

It's not surprising that Cali has developed more ethic enclaves as time goes on, since it's become less white and continues to attract large numbers of new immigrants (who are much more likely to settle down into ethnic neighborhoods). But I see no reason to presume the majority of Whites born in Santa Monica, blacks from Inglewood, Chinese from Diamond Bar, or Latinos from Boyle Heights will still be in those neighborhoods 30 years from now.

The article acknowledges that has been the reality and implies it is a problem.

[RST500]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think present-day CA is arguably the strongest repudiation to the white replacement fearmongering. CA is overwhelmingly nonwhite, right now. It's America decades from now.

CA feels white in areas that are quite nonwhite, if that makes sense, again, because most assimilated Hispanics are culturally/appearance-wise indistinguishable from non-Hispanic whites, and Asians also have very high rates of intermarriage.

So gateway enclaves will be culturally distinct, but once you get into sprawl tract home neighborhoods, almost everyone who isn't black is "white". Orange County still feels very white, despite being over 60% nonwhite. 2070 U.S. will still likely be a white majority society, it will just have a large share of whites with some Asian and Latin American roots.

Article gives examples of this:

"There is an implication that Whiteness is racism or at the very least exclusionary of others with the article deliberately uncapping the term White. To give a demographic comparison, California public school enrollment is only 22.9% White compared with 47% for the United States. The recent massive decline in enrollment, especially White enrollment, in San Francisco schools is proof that these woke policies fail at their objective of integration."

"In a minoritarian pluralist sense, however, the concept of a Whitetopia--a term used to describe White flight zones—is analogous to an ethnic enclave or ethnoburb, just like an immigrant community."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by IrishIllini

I've met Spaniards, Italians, and Greeks that I initially believed to be Latino-American, Arabic, or North African, but self-identify as white.

My 3rd generation sicilian-american wife, with her lovely dark olive skin, often gets the what are you?* treatment, much to her annoyance.

she's gotten everything from latino/hispanic, arabian, indian, native american, middle eastern, etc.

looks-wise, she's definitely a million times closer to people in those groups than she is to the stereotypical northern european look.


(*) usually inquired with the tone of "i'm not sure what you are, but you certainly don't look white to me".

[Docere]

Hard to take someone purporting to be a serious analyst who uses terms like "woke policies" seriously.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Crawford

One thing that always strikes me about suburban California is the "All-American" suburban areas that are like 90%+ Mexican or East Asian. NYC (and other urban centers) serve more as gateway cities, so Mexicans, Chinese, etc. tend to be more enclave-y and distinct. You go to a Mexican or Chinese neighborhood, and it feels "fresh off the boat". Extremely culturally distinct. No doubt there are areas like that in LA too. Toronto definitely has this feel too.

But you go somewhere like Whittier, CA and everyone is of Mexican descent yet it barely feels different than a white suburb. It feels all apple pie and Americana. Or go to Diamond Bar, CA and it's overwhelmingly Chinese, but still feels quintessential SoCal, out of Archie comics. Yeah, the strip malls will have more boba shops and some grannies will speak Chinese, but it's all soccer moms, megachurches and Sams Club, more like Ohio than some "exotic" ethnic enclave.

Of course you had to pick 2 of the more "assimilated" ethnic suburban enclaves in the LA area. The Latinos who live in Whittier are one of the more pocho groups of Mexican-Americans in the LA area. And, some years ago, the Latino business owners and even the Latino city councilmembers of Whittier were anti taco truck. Whittier (and Downey) were traditionally white cities, and only became more Latino during the 1980s. Whittier and Downey were considered towns that working-class Latinos aspired to live in, and presumably, towns where they wanted/were expected to "white it up."

Diamond Bar is also a bad example of non-assimilated Asians in suburban Los Angeles. There are some Asian businesses there, but not as much as in neighboring Rowland Heights or even Hacienda Heights, and definitely you see plenty of non-assimilated Asians (mainly Chinese) in Alhambra, Rosemead, Monterey Park... In fact, there's a phenomenon of some Asians who like their hardcore Asian markets, restaurants, etc., but prefer that they go to them in the other neighboring towns where those types of businesses are already established---they don't want them in the "new, clean" area that they live in. It's almost their own form of "whitewashing."

The next time you're in the LA suburbs, all you need to do is actually get out of the car and walk around Huntington Park, Bell Gardens, Norwalk, Baldwin Park, El Monte, South El Monte, Rosemead, Monterey Park, Temple City, etc., and it's nothing like Whittier or Diamond Bar. There's nothing "apple pie/all-American" about walking into a La Michoacana Nieves Y Mas or Mian on Valley Boulevard and being greeted en español or Mandarin, respectively.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by eschaton

My point is every 3rd+ generation immigrant I've known has fundamentally been assimilated - even if they aren't visibly white.

I'd actually even argue that black immigrants assimilate - they just assimilate into black culture rather than white culture. Like, I've known children/grandchildren of Dominican immigrants who self-identified as black, much to their parents disdain.

I guess it depends on what part of the US, too.

In SoCal, there is definitely Mexican-American culture. Even a Mexican-American accent. Not all of them white it up.

And I don't know if it's still the case, being that I'm 51 now, but I had Chinese-American and Japanese-American friends/classmates who went to Chinese school and "J" school on Saturdays.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Of course you had to pick 2 of the more "assimilated" ethnic suburban enclaves in the LA area. The Latinos who live in Whittier are one of the more pocho groups of Mexican-Americans in the LA area. And, some years ago, the Latino business owners and even the Latino city councilmembers of Whittier were anti taco truck. Whittier (and Downey) were traditionally white cities, and only became more Latino during the 1980s. Whittier and Downey were considered towns that working-class Latinos aspired to live in, and presumably, towns where they wanted/were expected to "white it up."

Diamond Bar is also a bad example of non-assimilated Asians in suburban Los Angeles. There are some Asian businesses there, but not as much as in neighboring Rowland Heights or even Hacienda Heights, and definitely you see plenty of non-assimilated Asians (mainly Chinese) in Alhambra, Rosemead, Monterey Park... In fact, there's a phenomenon of some Asians who like their hardcore Asian markets, restaurants, etc., but prefer that they go to them in the other neighboring towns where those types of businesses are already established---they don't want them in the "new, clean" area that they live in. It's almost their own form of "whitewashing."

The next time you're in the LA suburbs, all you need to do is actually get out of the car and walk around Huntington Park, Bell Gardens, Norwalk, Baldwin Park, El Monte, South El Monte, Rosemead, Monterey Park, Temple City, etc., and it's nothing like Whittier or Diamond Bar. There's nothing "apple pie/all-American" about walking into a La Michoacana Nieves Y Mas or Mian on Valley Boulevard and being greeted en español or Mandarin, respectively.

Yeah I get the impression that white washed Diamond Bar is more the exception rather than the norm in SoCal like places like Westminster or Monterey Park and the rest of the 626.