PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Redddog

There's really only a few blocks left that need to be razed and rebuilt. The real issue is all the methodone clinics near this stretch. It literally summons all the junkies into this part of town. Structurally, this stretch is close. But the street action as of this weekend is wholly unenjoyable.

It's a shame.

Well where are the methadone clinics supposed to be?

We live in the heroin epicenter of the United States.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Well where are the methadone clinics supposed to be?

We live in the heroin epicenter of the United States.

I think there are far worse cities in terms of the heroin epidemic, they’re just smaller. Columbus is, I believe, both the heroin and human trafficking center of the US in terms of sheer volume.

Don’t get me wrong, Philly has a worse problem than, say, New York, but there are still worse cities.

And to answer your first question, not along Market Street. Put them somewhere easily accessible by transit but not in the middle of a part of downtown you’re trying to revitalize.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Well where are the methadone clinics supposed to be?

We live in the heroin epicenter of the United States.

They don't have to be in the Center of tourism and activity.

I know it's a slippery slope and in this current environment, any discussion that even hints of an economic solution vs a humanitarian one will paint one as a heartless d-bag with no feelings. I get it. This needs to be addressed with the victims of this disease at the forefront.

The fact is, the real epicenter of the problem is NOT in Center City. It's, as illustrated, in North Philly. The people who are suffering from this scurge are located there. They buy junk there. They shoot it there and they hang out there. Then, they come to Center City and pan handle, earn enough for another bag and go back to north Philly.

Shouldn't the Methadone clinics be located where the addicts are?

[SEFTA]

been to SF lately?

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

been to SF lately?

Right?!

I mean Kensington is a name. And one that's well earned. Few places move as much dope with as much efficiency (and without any constraints whatsoever) as Kensington.

But the problem is hardly solely in Philly. Per capita, places like SF and Denver might best Philly. I lived in Boulder, Co. a couple years ago for work and was SHOCKED at how many people were doing the zombie thing out there on the streets.

It was nuts.


Philly will always get pegged with the worst violence, drugs and crime scenes. But in any big city, its a problem. Not just Philly. I wish that stereotype would diminish but it doesn't seem like it's going to anytime soon.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Philly will always get pegged with the worst violence, drugs and crime scenes. But in any big city, its a problem. Not just Philly. I wish that stereotype would diminish but it doesn't seem like it's going to anytime soon.

It’s a similar story in Chicago, having just come from there. Even down to the inferiority complex. A lot of my coworkers this past Co-Op were from Chicago and claimed that it is a shithole (entirely untrue). Are there bad parts? Yes. Tons. Worse than Philly? In some ways, yes. Bad all around? No!!

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

It’s a similar story in Chicago, having just come from there. Even down to the inferiority complex. A lot of my coworkers this past Co-Op were from Chicago and claimed that it is a shithole (entirely untrue). Are there bad parts? Yes. Tons. Worse than Philly? In some ways, yes. Bad all around? No!!

Sometimes we as people look at our environment with shit stained glasses when its truly better then 90% of places on planet earth & vice versa.

It's a human thing to do.

[UrbanRevival]

Not to pile on the "Philly ain't so bad" bandwagon--because the city absolutely can't lose sight of improving itself--but upon a recent visit to downtown Boston, it honestly was the first time I've ever gotten a dirty/grungy vibe there. I only saw a small section of Downtown Crossing, but it was enough to leave me very surprised.

Just saying--if cities like boutique Boston are having trouble keeping up appearances, then Philly is clearly going to be having some struggles, as well.

[700 Level]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

Not to pile on the "Philly ain't so bad" bandwagon--because the city absolutely can't lose sight of improving itself--but upon a recent visit to downtown Boston, it honestly was the first time I've ever gotten a dirty/grungy vibe there. I only saw a small section of Downtown Crossing, but it was enough to leave me very surprised.

Just saying--if cities like boutique Boston are having trouble keeping up appearances, then Philly is clearly going to be having some struggles, as well.

Wow, I had the exact same experience in Boston this summer. I always had the strongest impression of Boston - clean, safe, fun. But the area around Crosstown Center was really bad: aggressive panhandlers, homeless camp, non-stop police activity. It was a side of Boston that I had not seen. Washington Street was not too impressive either, so it kind of drifted up and into the South End.

The major point is that I agree that all cities are struggling with these issues today.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Redddog

They don't have to be in the Center of tourism and activity.

I know it's a slippery slope and in this current environment, any discussion that even hints of an economic solution vs a humanitarian one will paint one as a heartless d-bag with no feelings. I get it. This needs to be addressed with the victims of this disease at the forefront.

The fact is, the real epicenter of the problem is NOT in Center City. It's, as illustrated, in North Philly. The people who are suffering from this scurge are located there. They buy junk there. They shoot it there and they hang out there. Then, they come to Center City and pan handle, earn enough for another bag and go back to north Philly.

Shouldn't the Methadone clinics be located where the addicts are?

Heroin addicts live everywhere. Kensington shouldn't bear the burden of the entire regions' fix to its heroin problem. In fact, I'd argue that by REQUIRING people to go to the epicenter of the drug trade to get their drug treatment very likely makes it easier for them to just forego treatment altogether and relapse.

Center City is the transit center of the entire region. It too should have Methadone clinics. If you're coming from anywhere outside of Center City to get your methadone, to go all the way to Kensington or some other outlying neighborhood is actually a huge inconvenience.

This absolutism here. For 8 years I worked at Spring and Crosby streets at the intersection of two of the poshest neighborhoods in downtown Manhattan (Soho and Nolita). There was (and still is) a methadone clinic at the intersection of Lafayette and Spring, on the same block as the condos of David Bowie and Andrew Schue and probably countless other famous and rich people.

Methadone clinics belong everywhere. Rich people don't get a pass from shouldering or ignoring this burden.

[Frontst17]

Yeah have to agree. Center city is just that, the center of the city. It’s the meeting place for all. The good the bad and the ugly it’s not designed to be or supposed to be Philly Disney land. I’m on the side of the city has never looked better in my life time, but statistically I do believe we have the most severe heroine problem in the country unless that’s changed in the last few years. On top of that many of these people don’t live in the city they come from the suburbs to get high and get stuck and that would put them right in Market East. Kensington is cleaning up nicely but the problems have extended far from those boundaries

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Yeah have to agree. Center city is just that, the center of the city. It’s the meeting place for all. The good the bad and the ugly it’s not designed to be or supposed to be Philly Disney land. I’m on the side of the city has never looked better in my life time, but statistically I do believe we have the most severe heroine problem in the country unless that’s changed in the last few years. On top of that many of these people don’t live in the city they come from the suburbs to get high and get stuck and that would put them right in Market East. Kensington is cleaning up nicely but the problems have extended far from those boundaries

One could argue that methadone clinics should be more numerous and more discreet.

There are plenty of middle class and white collar heroin users. One would argue you should meet them where they reside to give them the access they need to their medication without having to traipse all over the god damn region and that you should do it as discreetly as possible. The more anonymous the better as it would make it more likely that people would seek treatment.

Not every person accessing these treatments is a "junkie". Plenty are people you and I rub elbows with and otherwise wouldn't know have a problem. No need to concentrate their services in one place. If anything spread them out so the severity of the problem is dispersed. Probably would do a better job of heading off more severe and crippling addiction as well.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

One could argue that methadone clinics should be more numerous and more discreet.

There are plenty of middle class and white collar heroin users. One would argue you should meet them where they reside to give them the access they need to their medication without having to traipse all over the god damn region and that you should do it as discreetly as possible. The more anonymous the better as it would make it more likely that people would seek treatment.

Not every person accessing these treatments is a "junkie". Plenty are people you and I rub elbows with and otherwise wouldn't know have a problem. No need to concentrate their services in one place. If anything spread them out so the severity of the problem is dispersed. Probably would do a better job of heading off more severe and crippling addiction as well.

+1 Couldn't have said it better.

3rd&Brown for mayor.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Yeah have to agree. Center city is just that, the center of the city. It’s the meeting place for all. The good the bad and the ugly it’s not designed to be or supposed to be Philly Disney land. I’m on the side of the city has never looked better in my life time, but statistically I do believe we have the most severe heroine problem in the country unless that’s changed in the last few years. On top of that many of these people don’t live in the city they come from the suburbs to get high and get stuck and that would put them right in Market East. Kensington is cleaning up nicely but the problems have extended far from those boundaries

As an an attempt to perhaps bring some clarity to this debate, I might add that these supposed numerous methodone clinics in Kensington don’t seem to be the magnet of drug abuse in the area. If you do a quick Google search there really aren’t any (or at least not that many) and hence I think we may be debating over a false assumption. I did some research and it seems like the real issue is the open air drug markets in Kensington. It’s history is rather long and nuanced going back to its days as an early center for crack in the 80’s and 90’s. Presumably, it just evolved right along with the Opioid epidemic.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Redddog

But the problem is hardly solely in Philly. Per capita, places like SF and Denver might best Philly. I lived in Boulder, Co. a couple years ago for work and was SHOCKED at how many people were doing the zombie thing out there on the streets.

It was nuts.

Philly will always get pegged with the worst violence, drugs and crime scenes. But in any big city, its a problem. Not just Philly. I wish that stereotype would diminish but it doesn't seem like it's going to anytime soon.

I am in San Fran now, and I can assure than it is worse. Philadelphia (for a lot of stupid and dated reasons) still gets a worse rep. I am heading to LA tomorrow, I haven't been since before Covid started.

But as others said, inferiority complexes and "grass is greener" tends to run deep almost everywhere. I have traveled the US far and wide, and I still find Philadelphia (and its suburban town centers) to be among the best places in the country, I learn that more and more as I travel for work.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I am in San Fran now, and I can assure than it is worse. Philadelphia (for a lot of stupid and dated reasons) still gets a worse rep. I am heading to LA tomorrow, I haven't been since before Covid started.

But as others said, inferiority complexes and "grass is greener" tends to run deep almost everywhere. I have traveled the US far and wide, and I still find Philadelphia (and its suburban town centers) to be among the best places in the country, I learn that more and more as I travel for work.

Whats interesting is that Philadelphia is the birth of the nation & sadly NYC over shadows us when it comes to the East Coast.

Philly probably has some of the best Culture, Food, Architecture, People, & the list goes on.

I agree if I wanted to live in any Suburb it would have to be one located in the Philly Metro, we have Public transportation (albeit needs improving) that brings you many places in the area, and out of state, different types of homes from Row Homes to living by the River or even quiet in the suburbs.

However we have this Funk in our Tristate area from Wilmington, De to Philadelphia that has not shaken off since the 50's when the white flight happened, (Finally in the past two decades we are turning a new leaf).

But it seems we just get a bad reputation even when we are improving.

NYC seems to not have this problem, is it because of Harrisburg? Is it because of City council? Do we have some entity making money off of Philly hurting?

I digress and will step off my soapbox, I'm proud of Philadelphia and our Tri-state area we are growing, and improving things as a whole. It couldn't be a better time to be alive.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

One could argue that methadone clinics should be more numerous and more discreet.

There are plenty of middle class and white collar heroin users. One would argue you should meet them where they reside to give them the access they need to their medication without having to traipse all over the god damn region and that you should do it as discreetly as possible. The more anonymous the better as it would make it more likely that people would seek treatment.

Not every person accessing these treatments is a "junkie". Plenty are people you and I rub elbows with and otherwise wouldn't know have a problem. No need to concentrate their services in one place. If anything spread them out so the severity of the problem is dispersed. Probably would do a better job of heading off more severe and crippling addiction as well.

Extremely well said. I would even go so far as to say those addicted to heroin are MOSTLY not of the junkie stereotype variety.

I graduated from hs in Delco in 2003. They were giving out Tylenol with codeine for getting your wisdom teeth out. Oxycontin was given out like candy, widely distributed for a myriad of minor sports injuries and broken bones. There was so much of this shit floating around that it was more widely available and easier to for high schoolers to take recreationally than pot or alcohol.

Not even 20 years later and nearly 10% of my class is dead from it. Last one who died I saw fairly recently, he was in his mid thirties, had a family, house, normal job. Two years later he's dead in a gutter in Kensington. But many of them managed to die in the comfort of their homes without ever venturing up to k&a.

Removing a methodone clinic may seem like a way to improve a block of center city, but zoom out and you're clearly not scoring a net positive for the city.

Redddog mentioned that methodone clinics should be where the addicted are. I agree. But that's an argument for having methodone clinics in center city, because addicts are everywhere. And with a couple hundred thousand people living in a few Sq miles, you'd imagine there are not only many addicts assuredly living in center city, but as others pointed out Center city is also a regional hub and sensible place to locate clinics for people to reach when there are no options where they live.

But I also agree that if there were more clinics throughout the region and they were not so stigmatized, the ones in center city would present far fewer issues

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

One could argue that methadone clinics should be more numerous and more discreet.

There are plenty of middle class and white collar heroin users. One would argue you should meet them where they reside to give them the access they need to their medication without having to traipse all over the god damn region and that you should do it as discreetly as possible. The more anonymous the better as it would make it more likely that people would seek treatment.

Not every person accessing these treatments is a "junkie". Plenty are people you and I rub elbows with and otherwise wouldn't know have a problem. No need to concentrate their services in one place. If anything spread them out so the severity of the problem is dispersed. Probably would do a better job of heading off more severe and crippling addiction as well.

Can you please run for public office? You’ve managed to sway me into agreement with you.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Can you please run for public office? You’ve managed to sway me into agreement with you.

Gracias. This was just a blip. We agree on most things as is.

Public office could never happen. I've slept with too many people, lol.

That being said I would love to pivot to public service one day and be akin to the Chief of Staff for the Mayor (though not this one...). You know, get a public pension that you all pay for, take DROP, then head off into the sunset.

J/K.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I graduated from hs in Delco in 2003. They were giving out Tylenol with codeine for getting your wisdom teeth out. Oxycontin was given out like candy, widely distributed for a myriad of minor sports injuries and broken bones. There was so much of this shit floating around that it was more widely available and easier to for high schoolers to take recreationally than pot or alcohol.

Not even 20 years later and nearly 10% of my class is dead from it.

Good god. I graduated from HS in Delco in 1999. I don't keep on top of everything, but through the grapevine I've heard of maybe only 4 or 5 people that have died in my class out of almost 300. One I know for sure was a car accident and I've always assumed the others were overdoses.

That's terrible. I have a few cousins from the Ridley area (Ridley, Prospect Park) who are a bit younger than me and have talked numerous times about how many people they know who OD'd. Maybe my timing was off or maybe it's more concentrated elsewhere, who knows.