Downtowns are back

[TimCity2000]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

That census tract you mentioned is growing, but it doesn't do much to increase the overall density.

Agreed, but it would still double the population you currently show for downtown Birmingham.

The Convention & Visitors Bureau seems to include it in their definition, and several hotels in that census tract have the word "Downtown" in their name: https://www.birminghamal.org/neighborhood/downtown/

Obviously not a big deal, and I do appreciate the time you've put into this. I just felt like downtown Birmingham was not adequately shown.

[Labtec]

Originally Posted by LA21st

It sounds like you don't know where to go.
Little Tokyo? Arts District? Historic Core? Chinatown? Fashion District?
These places don't exist in another sunbelt city downtown.

Little Tokyo, what can you do there besides eating at sushi and ramen places? Since I'm Korean I spend most of my time on Wilshire Blvd in K-town. In a sunbelt city like downtown Atlanta, you have two major universities (Georgia Tech and Georgia State) so there are many students out and about. There are also historical places like Sweet Auburn District and Fairlie-Poplar: https://discoveratlanta.com/explore/...airlie-poplar/ It doesn't have the same Asian places but the African American ones are plentiful.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Labtec

Little Tokyo, what can you do there besides eating at sushi and ramen places? Since I'm Korean I spend most of my time on Wilshire Blvd in K-town. In a sunbelt city like downtown Atlanta, you have two major universities (Georgia Tech and Georgia State) so there are many students out and about. There are also historical places like Sweet Auburn District and Fairlie-Poplar: https://discoveratlanta.com/explore/...airlie-poplar/ It doesn't have the same Asian places but the African American ones are plentiful.

So you proved my point.

Sure other sunbelt cities have people walking around. As much as downtown LA?
No
And Little Tokyo was just one example. I think the Historic Core is the most interesting/vibrant. The only cities that have something like that the main urban 7 cities in america.

[ChrisLA]

Originally Posted by LA21st

So you proved my point.

Sure other sunbelt cities have people walking around. As much as downtown LA?
No
And Little Tokyo was just one example. I think the Historic Core is the most interesting/vibrant. The only cities that have something like that the main urban 7 cities in america.

I didn’t think those two university’s are part of downtown Atlanta. Looking at google earth and from my limited experience visiting the downtown area much of the attractions visitors (I was interested in) would go see are too far to walk.(ex. MLK Memorial, Historical Black Colleges, even CNN). Of course there are things to see in downtown but LA downtown is much more vibrant and more interesting things to do. If you include universities nearby and we can say that downtown LA has USC, Exposition Park with all it’s museums, the rose gardens, The Colosseum the Rose Garden, as well as the other cultural venues such as the Music Center, Disney Hall, and the Staples Center, and that’s only a few things I mentioned.

[dktshb]

Originally Posted by ChrisLA

I didn’t think those two university’s are part of downtown Atlanta. Looking at google earth and from my limited experience visiting the downtown area much of the attractions visitors (I was interested in) would go see are too far to walk.(ex. MLK Memorial, Historical Black Colleges, even CNN). Of course there are things to see in downtown but LA downtown is much more vibrant and more interesting things to do. If you include universities nearby and we can say that downtown LA has USC, Exposition Park with all it’s museums, the rose gardens, The Colosseum the Rose Garden, as well as the other cultural venues such as the Music Center, Disney Hall, and the Staples Center, and that’s only a few things I mentioned.

Yeah, the Broad, Mocha, grammy museum, Japanese American National Museum, Geffen contemporary just to name the most prominent museums downtown. What else is there to do downtown than go to museums, see a symphony, broadway show, shop, eat, dine, drink, enjoy a park and amazing architecture. You have the Colburn School right downtown and they of course will have their own venue soon for their performances. So much more to do and see in Downtown LA. Plus you have the rest of the city that has so many more things to do.

[iheartthed]

Downtown L.A. doesn't feel like it has a lot of foot traffic to me. I wouldn't say the pedestrian activity blows away Peachtree Street in Atlanta. Downtown L.A. is much bigger than downtown Atlanta, though.

[mhays]

I've stayed in Midtown and DTLA in recent years. Midtown is pretty good (last visited in February 2020), but I saw nothing like the pedestrian volumes of the busier parts of DTLA.

[Chisouthside]

Parts of downtown LA feel like an extension of Boyle Heights with all the Latin mom and pop shops, combined with all the new development, the street people and the shoppers and there's definitely a cool vibrancy to dtla. At least for me it reminds me of what the southern part of the Loop was like in Chicago in the early 90s;

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

Agreed, but it would still double the population you currently show for downtown Birmingham.

The Convention & Visitors Bureau seems to include it in their definition, and several hotels in that census tract have the word "Downtown" in their name: https://www.birminghamal.org/neighborhood/downtown/

Obviously not a big deal, and I do appreciate the time you've put into this. I just felt like downtown Birmingham was not adequately shown.

Adding that tract we'd get this:

------------------------------------ 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth ---------- Density
Downtown ------------------------- 6,911 ------ 6,611 ------ 4,751 ------ 6,467 -------- 4.5% --- 39.1% --- -26.5% ------- 6.8 km² ----- 1,022.3 inh./km²

[Yuri]

Downtown Memphis



---------------------------------- 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth ------ Area ------ Density

Downtown ----------------------- 10,022 ------ 7,991 ------ 5,581 ------ 5,412 ------ 25.4% --- 43.2% ----- 3.1% ------- 4.7 km² ---- 2,115.2 inh./km²

Memphis MSA --------------- 1,337,779 -- 1,316,044 -- 1,205,218 -- 1,067,263 ------- 1.7% ---- 9.2% ---- 12.9% -- 11,850 km²


Downtown Memphis has a quite robust population for a southern city. I hear they have a good nightlife there, but I don't know much about it. And the most important, it's following the national trend and growing fast.

The MSA growing slower and slower and might be very close to post negative growth, while its rival, Nashville keeps booming.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Downtown Buffalo




------------------------------ 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth


Buffalo MSA --------------- 1,166,902 -- 1,135,509 -- 1,170,111 -- 1,189,288 ----- 2.8% ---- -3.0% --- -1.6% --- 4,054 km²

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Downtown Rochester



------------------------------ 2020 ------ 2010 ------ 2000 ------ 1990 ------ Growth


Rochester MSA ------------- 1,090,135 -- 1,079,640 -- 1,062,452 -- 1,025,220 ----- 1.0% ----- 1.6% ---- 3.6% --- 8,459 km²

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Downtown Birmingham





Birmingham Metro Area ----- 1,180,631 -- 1,128,047 -- 1,052,238 ---- 956,844 ------ 4.7% ----- 7.2% ---- 10.0% -- 13,675 km²

Buffalo, Rochester, and Birmingham have roughly the same size Metro population.

Rochester Metro is 2 times larger in area than Buffalo's.
Birmingham has a Metro Area 3.3 times larger in area than Buffalo's.
Sprawlingham!

[Manitopiaaa]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Buffalo, Rochester, and Birmingham have roughly the same size Metro population.

Rochester Metro is 2 times larger in area than Buffalo's.
Birmingham has a Metro Area 3.3 times larger in area than Buffalo's.
Sprawlingham!

And if Birmingham hadn't been such a corrupt and racist place, it would have 6 million people now, not Atlanta: https://www.al.com/opinion/2019/07/b...wo-cities.html

[Wigs]

Atlanta became the "City too busy to hate" and left Birmingham in the dust.

[ChiSoxRox]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Buffalo, Rochester, and Birmingham have roughly the same size Metro population.

Rochester Metro is 2 times larger in area than Buffalo's.
Birmingham has a Metro Area 3.3 times larger in area than Buffalo's.
Sprawlingham!

Of the 56 metros over 1 million, Birmingham is dead last in weighted density at 1,402 people per square mile for the average person.

The runner up, Nashville, is 40% denser at 1,943 ppsm.

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Downtown L.A. doesn't feel like it has a lot of foot traffic to me. I wouldn't say the pedestrian activity blows away Peachtree Street in Atlanta. Downtown L.A. is much bigger than downtown Atlanta, though.

Originally Posted by mhays

I've stayed in Midtown and DTLA in recent years. Midtown is pretty good (last visited in February 2020), but I saw nothing like the pedestrian volumes of the busier parts of DTLA.

I consider Midtown/Downtown Atlanta to be part of one urban core now. 53k people is a lot for a southern city. More than 10% of Atlanta's population lives in Downtown or Midtown Atlanta. It's pretty impressive.

But Downtown LA is definitely more vibrant than Downtown Atlanta. Downtown Atlanta can surprise me of how vibrant it can get during the day though.

Midtown Atlanta is more vibrant during the evening and night hours.

[TimCity2000]

Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox

Of the 56 metros over 1 million, Birmingham is dead last in weighted density at 1,402 people per square mile for the average person.

The runner up, Nashville, is 40% denser at 1,943 ppsm.

how is weighted density calculated?

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox

Of the 56 metros over 1 million, Birmingham is dead last in weighted density at 1,402 people per square mile for the average person.

The runner up, Nashville, is 40% denser at 1,943 ppsm.

interesting!
where did Buffalo rank?

[ChiSoxRox]

Originally Posted by TimCity2000

how is weighted density calculated?

Take each census tract, multiply its density by its fraction of the total population, and sum. I.e. weighted density gives the average density experienced by an area's inhabitants.

Originally Posted by Wigs

interesting!
where did Buffalo rank?

Buffalo was #26 out of 56 MSAs at a weighted density of 4,349 people per square mile. So the average Buffalo metro resident lives at that density.

The top 10 MSAs over 1 million:

1. New York: 33,787.5
2. San Francisco....13,267.8
3. Honolulu....12,581.9
4. Los Angeles....12,169.4
5. San Jose....9,075.9
6. Chicago....9,011.9
7. Boston....8,987.9
8. Miami....8,489.2
9. Philadelphia....8,258.5
10. San Diego....7,381.9

The full list is in this post.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox

Take each census tract, multiply its density by its fraction of the total population, and sum. I.e. weighted density gives the average density experienced by an area's inhabitants.



Buffalo was #26 out of 56 MSAs at a weighted density of 4,349 people per square mile. So the average Buffalo metro resident lives at that density.

The full list is in this post.

Thanks

[KB0679]

Originally Posted by ChrisLA

I didn’t think those two university’s are part of downtown Atlanta. Looking at google earth and from my limited experience visiting the downtown area much of the attractions visitors (I was interested in) would go see are too far to walk.(ex. MLK Memorial, Historical Black Colleges, even CNN).

While Georgia Tech is in Midtown, Georgia State is most definitely located in downtown and has arguably been the most active real estate developer within downtown over the past decade due to its rapid growth.

As far as attractions in downtown Atlanta, you're forgetting the entire area around Centennial Olympic Park which includes the aquarium, World of Coke, civil/human rights museum, and the College Football HOF. Sweet Auburn is easily accessible from downtown via the streetcar.

Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa

And if Birmingham hadn't been such a corrupt and racist place, it would have 6 million people now, not Atlanta: https://www.al.com/opinion/2019/07/b...wo-cities.html

This is assuming that Birmingham's gain would have been Atlanta's loss and there's no good reason to believe this would've been the case. Also it wasn't just that Atlanta wasn't nearly as violently racist that accounts for its rapid growth post-civil rights, it's because, while still very much a Southern city, its Black institutions, civil rights vanguard, business/professional class, and political class gave it the most progressive of reputations among Southern cities. This is why Atlanta became the biggest beneficiary of the "Reverse Migration" among Black Americans at the outset in 1970 and hasn't relinquished that position in 50 years.

Aside from racial issues, Birmingham still had two big things working against it: 1) local steel industrialists who supported Jim Crow to discourage outside economic investment and thus competition as a means of keeping wages low and Northern-based corporate owners who were absent and largely unconcerned with local matters; and 2) geography as Georgia's location on the Atlantic coast and in the EST zone was more advantageous for it as an airport and business hub with connections to East Coast business interests. Also, even without all the racial strife and violence in Birmingham, Alabama would still have a bad reputation for civil rights with Selma, Montgomery, George Wallace's rhetoric and antics, etc which would wind up still negatively impacting Birmingham to some extent.