Gritty - Bad or Interesting?

[Yuri]

This discussion is quite old and actually faded away as the explosive urban population on the past decaalwde and gentrification got rid of good chunk of it.

Anyway, I've always been opposed to it, not seen any asthetic or social value on it till recently, when I changed my stance on it.

Neighbourhoods like Higienópolis, São Paulo, a high density, wealthy, tree-lined Jewish district that was my ideal urban form strikes me as boring, sterile and excludent:

https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.543...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.543...7i16384!8i8192

On the other hand, República, a residential part of Downtown, symbol of urban decay and seen today a ressurgence, full of new creative restaurants, bars, nightcubs, shops and despite the massive homelessness problem and safety issues, looks much more exciting and promising:

https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.547...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.554...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.546...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@-23.540...7i16384!8i8192

Last December when I visited Berlin, same thing: Kreuzberg and Friedrichshain looked more vibrant and exciting and vibrant than Charlottenburg, for instance.

What are your views on it?

[Buckeye Native 001]

I like the Flyers goofy ass mascot despite being a fan of a rival divisional team.

[mousquet]

I don't like what they call 'grit' at all. It means run down, dilapidated, impoverished, corruption widespread over society to me. It is decadence and I can't stand it anywhere.

Those São Paulo areas you're showcasing are hardly gritty. They look better than Hong Kong at street level on average to me, though I've never been to either places.
We've seen far worse from Brazil, haven't we?

I know French Guiana in person on the other hand, that's neighboring Brazil (for those who wouldn't know). There is quite a lot of blight/grit and crime over there too, partly due to the French system that's been corrupt to some extent. But nothing to do with your country. It is just not the same scale at all.

Anyway, keep in mind, corruption is the only thing to impoverish the people. And dreary 'grit' is the consequence of it.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I don't like what they call 'grit' at all. It means run down, dilapidated, impoverished, corruption widespread over society to me. It is decadence and I can't stand it anywhere.

But what's the solution? To hide in those extremely and esterile bubble to pretend there's no society out there. Arguably, those problems are not solved as many people don't see them from inside their bubbles.

Originally Posted by mousquet

Those São Paulo areas you're showcasing are hardly gritty. They look better than Hong Kong at street level on average to me, though I've never been to either places.
We've seen far worse from Brazil, haven't we?

Over half of homeless people in São Paulo live Downtown. This area, as happened elsewhere the world, lost all its upper class and the whole financial district, which is the most important of Southern Hemisphere. Its recovery started only in the past ten years, on the residential part only. The financial district has moved southwestwards and won't move back.

I'd argue Downtown São Paulo is not only the best example of urban gritty in the city, but in the entire world.

As São Paulo is a foreign city for you, the pics might not give you the vibe of those regions I linked. But believe me, they are worlds apart.

Originally Posted by mousquet

I know French Guiana in person on the other hand, that's neighboring Brazil (for those who wouldn't know). There is quite a lot of blight/grit and crime over there too, partly due to the French system that's been corrupt to some extent. But nothing to do with your country. It is just not the same scale at all.

I don't think French Guiana is comparable to São Paulo or Brazil. It's only 300,000 inhabitants and its barely urban to have any urban gritty to begin with.

Originally Posted by mousquet

Anyway, keep in mind, corruption is the only thing to impoverish the people. And dreary 'grit' is the consequence of it.

There are lots of things that impoverish people, not only corruption. From instance, intergeneration transmission of wealth leading to massive inequality and lack of opportunities that plague Brazil and other countries.

However, on this thread, I meant to focus on the urban decay, leading to gritty and then leading to a renew interest on this areas out of their particularity. That's why I said República looks much more exciting than the neighbouring Higienópolis. People meet each other, tend to think outside the box, are more sensible to the social issues in their city. The others live in a de facto apartheid urban zoning, where poor people are only allowed there to provide labour.

[Yuri]

I guess the Street View doesn't convey how a neighbourhood feels like, so some pics that might represent better República, which I brought as an example of region with lots of grit, but which is under renaissance, a bit like Kreuzberg in Berlin:

[TexasPlaya]

It's too subjective. For me grit is a feeling of character within an older neighborhood, usually more working class. Grit and ghetto aren't the same to me, but on the spectrum.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

But what's the solution? To hide in those extremely and esterile bubble to pretend there's no society out there. Arguably, those problems are not solved as many people don't see them from inside their bubbles.

I don't know what's the solution, goddammit! If I did, I'd be the greatest theologian on Earth teaching science in Rome to kick the ass of the pope himself.
"Solution" doesn't come from a single individual, but from the people as a whole and their good will / faith.

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

I don't think French Guiana is comparable to São Paulo or Brazil. It's only 300,000 inhabitants and its barely urban to have any urban gritty to begin with.

You repeated what I just said. Tu le fais exprès ? There's nothing much of a great urban area in northeastern Brazil either. That's not where Rio or Paulo is located.

Nevertheless, Kourou is a common spot for European engineers to transit, 'cause there's the space center over there, a lot of cool tech, and diverse locals and people from all over Europe.
I think that's interesting and could provide advanced opportunities to the entire region, including Brazil, potentially. If our governments are open-minded and skilled enough at making effective deals.

Not to mention the forest... There are some tremendous, ridiculous tourism businesses to develop over there in this day and age when environmentalism has been so trendy.
You can do anything in that forest. Even scuba diving. Wildlife over there is the most intense I've ever seen.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

It's too subjective. For me grit is a feeling of character within an older neighborhood, usually more working class. Grit and ghetto aren't the same to me, but on the spectrum.

i agree. I guess my view evolved in a way that I don't consider the ultimate quest for a neighbourhood is to become the wealthiest, and therefore the "best". No, there is definitely other and maybe more interesting paths to follow.

Originally Posted by mousquet

You repeated what I just said. Tu le fais exprès ? There's nothing much of a great urban area in northeastern Brazil either. That's not where Rio or Paulo is located.

Recife, Salvador, Fortaleza... 4 million people and over four centuries of existence.

[SIGSEGV]

Yeah, a neighborhood that's too well-kept doesn't really feel lived in. Here's one of my favorite street scenes from a pretty gritty (but also extremely safe!) city:

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4345...7i13312!8i6656

In the US, usually Chinatowns are a good contender for gritty without being sketchy.

[eixample]

I don't know that the grittiness of a city has a good definition. Grit as applied to a person means determination, resolve, courage. Presumably that is derived from the "fine particles of sand" definition of grit although I don't know exactly how. When people say a city is gritty, sometimes I think they mean the city has fallen on hard times but is persevering and 'making a come back'. I feel like it is also used to as a synonym for 'grimy', i.e. dirty or dilapidated.

One thing I think of with relation to grittiness is the overlap of new and old in a city. Jane Jacobs talks about the need for old buildings mixed in with newer buildings in a city - older buildings give smaller or lower rent businesses a place to locate so a neighborhood is not all bank branches and drug stores. Older apartments also ask cheaper rents generally so you get mixed incomes, which is really important in a city for a whole host of reasons (newer apartment buildings are of course necessary to keep the supply up and rents down). Buildings of different eras that are side-by-side are also interesting architecturally as well.

[eschaton]

IMHO a great example of grittiness is Naples in Italy. Not a touristy city at all as far as Italy goes, and also not a blighted city, but very grimy and dense.

[Handro]

"Grit" is really the charm of a city. If you want clean and bucolic, go to a small village in the countryside. If you want grit--the result of thousands of people over decades or centuries working and living in a shared space, go to a city. And not all cities have true grit (as I subjectively am defining it). Some are too spacious or uncrowded or new. Grit tells a a million stories--scary, sad, funny, happy, and bittersweet. Colorful graffiti, dirty alleyways, weird smells and sooty infrastructure.

A nicely built structure with high-end cladding is nice and often welcome. But you can find those just about anywhere. Only in a real city will you find real grit. Not to be confused with "rundown", which exists in cities as much as it exists in the suburbs and the country. Rundown is underused, forgotten, ignored. Gritty is immersive, layered, battered.

I love grittiness. It's what has attracted me to cities since I was 5 years old visiting Chicago from the suburbs with my family. The mystery, the contrasts... it always fascinated me.

[mrnyc]

i was recently google streetviewing around buenos aires.

i immediately noticed how the 'cool' grit of neighborhoods like la boca have been gentrified and touristified since we visited and it made me a bit sad to see.

i mean god forbid, but how much longer can it be until somebody wants to rebuild la bombonera into a slick, glassy stadium?!!

otoh, i would hope that means the neighborhood people's lives are getting better, if not pushed out of there. i dk?

[ilcapo]

I do love this type of grit. It's not affecting anyones life and gives charachter to the city.

Examples:
Malmö
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2NryrmW7eJuk1Nex9
https://maps.app.goo.gl/UnQsvbqXoVphTi4N6

Copenhagen:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/3JZkFSiYsCwrWFjr6

Oslo
https://maps.app.goo.gl/eN2vyavyZTFbcgho9

For me, it should be parts of grit in dense cities that are otherwise well kept.

A full city of grit is just sad and brings stories of hopelesness, while pockets of gritty areas and building shows signs of "a real neighborhood with real people" in it.

I do not love gentrification but im attracted to areas on the verge of gentrification.

[MolsonExport]

The Spanish Quarter (Naples) is a great example of awesome grit...it has a reputation for being dangerous, but I went though it several times with my kids, unscathed.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Handro

"Grit" is really the charm of a city. If you want clean and bucolic, go to a small village in the countryside. If you want grit--the result of thousands of people over decades or centuries working and living in a shared space, go to a city. And not all cities have true grit (as I subjectively am defining it). Some are too spacious or uncrowded or new. Grit tells a a million stories--scary, sad, funny, happy, and bittersweet. Colorful graffiti, dirty alleyways, weird smells and sooty infrastructure.

A nicely built structure with high-end cladding is nice and often welcome. But you can find those just about anywhere. Only in a real city will you find real grit. Not to be confused with "rundown", which exists in cities as much as it exists in the suburbs and the country. Rundown is underused, forgotten, ignored. Gritty is immersive, layered, battered.

I love grittiness. It's what has attracted me to cities since I was 5 years old visiting Chicago from the suburbs with my family. The mystery, the contrasts... it always fascinated me.

I started typing out a response until I saw your comment - you already got it better than I could. "Grit" is simply what happens when you have a busy, vibrant, and mature city that is actively being used and engaged with by its citizens. It's the weathered patina of the city.

Urban areas that aren't gritty usually fall into one of two categories:

• Older, denser areas that have been deliberately been made that way - most commonly to cater to the sensibilities of tourists or the upper classes. These feel inauthentic as you're experiencing a romanticized pastiche of history moreso than it's real ugly and beautiful layers.
  
• Newer or less busy areas which simply haven't yet had the time to develop much of a patina.

It's no coincidence then that we tend to favour grit on SSP - because it usually corresponds with the most interesting cities and neighbourhoods.

[edale]

There is definitely a distinction between blight and grit, in my opinion. I think of grit as being a little chaotic, evidence of life being lived in a place for many years, overhead wires and street art, a mix of building conditions. Once things get too cleaned up, they can look sterile.

In Cincinnati, the neighborhood I most associate with gritty in a positive way is Northside. It's vibrant and has an active business district, but it still looks a bit rough around the edges. Mom and pop shops, ethnic restaurants, LGBT bars (though they are sadly becoming less of a presence in the neighborhood). It still has a bit of its industrial heritage.

Northside:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1626...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1598...7i16384!8i8192


Much of Over the Rhine went from abandoned to polished, largely bypassing the gritty stage, or losing it many years ago. You can still witness this transition happening as the redevelopment machine continues to expand.

You have this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1110...7i16384!8i8192

...just a few blocks from this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1146...7i16384!8i8192

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by edale

There is definitely a distinction between blight and grit, in my opinion.

Yeah, I think that's the point. There's a problem with strictly defining a whole ton of these words in common use.
It seems grit means old and experienced to you guys.

I was taking it as rundown and seedy, like shantytowns or something, that's not the same.

For instance, ilcapo posting streetviews from Scandinavia is funny. Bon, that's a lot of red brick and possibly too much uniformity here and there, but it's not what I would call abandoned, literally impoverished or really seedy.

The worst in Scandinavia as in entire Europe is obviously the plain cheap concrete "commieblocks" built in the 1960s/70s. Like none of us wants to live in such things, and certainly not those who designed them.
It was all quickly and cheaply designed like some botched job for workers who rebuilt Europe following WWII, that ruined our economy.

[ilcapo]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Yeah, I think that's the point. There's a problem with strictly defining a whole ton of these words in common use.
It seems grit means old and experienced to you guys.

I was taking it as rundown and seedy, like shantytowns or something, that's not the same.

For instance, ilcapo posting streetviews from Scandinavia is funny. Bon, that's a lot of red brick and possibly too much uniformity here and there, but it's not what I would call abandoned, literally impoverished or really seedy.

The worst in Scandinavia as in entire Europe is obviously the plain cheap concrete "commieblocks" built in the 1960s/70s. Like none of us wants to live in such things, and certainly not those who designed them.
It was all quickly and cheaply designed like some botched job for workers who rebuilt Europe following WWII, that ruined our economy.

Yeah, my photos was not supposed to show abandoned or slum-like areas in any way. For me there is a difference between grit, blight and urban decay where the latter for me is linked to abandoned buildings, slums and poverty, whereas grit is something that is natural in an urban environment and not necesarilly as bad as it looks.

Scandinavia is obviously an extreme example as what we may consider as grit - southern european or american inner cities may consider "normal" we have very strict policies when it comes to polishing the surface - especially in our inner-cities.

[Qubert]

I think we need to distinguish physical grittiness from human grittiness. Using NYC as an example, places like SoHo, Tribeca, and even parts of the UES have physically "lived in" spaces, older buildings and street art, despite being some of the wealthiest places on the planet. Tokyo is immensely gritty in some aspects with it's overhead trains/wires, industrial centers and maze of 1980s shopping arcades, but is clearly far safer and more socially polished than any city in the western world.

IMHO, I have a strong disdain for the trend of upper middle class individuals seeking out "human grit" in the form of homelessness, open drug use, poverty or lawlessness. People come here asking for tours of Harlem or the Bronx as if it's some kind of human zoo. That to me is extremely off-putting. Poor people don't exist to make oneself look cooler/edgier or morally superior. As far as "bubbles" are concerned I doubt the people you see sprawled out on the sidewalk are any more thankful to those who step over them everyday versus those who live on the other side of town. I'd be more moved if efforts were being made to have them be not homeless?