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  #61  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2021, 8:31 PM
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Why does the bridge even have a toll plaza these days? The toll bridges around here either go by transponder or they take a picture of the vehicle license plates. Traffic flows normally across the bridge and there are no special tie-ups created on either end.
HDBC has been studying all-electronic tolling (AET) since at least 2018. AECOM was due to produce a report late in 2019. If that happened, it hasn't been released publicly as far as I know. The HDBC's 2019 annual report suggested a decision would be made in 2020 but the most recent annual report doesn't mention any timelines. A story last April suggested COVID may slow the project down, noting the drop in crossings.

AET will require UARB approval. It will be an expensive project -- probably $25 million or more -- to remove the toll plazas, install the new equipment to read licence plates, and realign the roadways. But staying with the current system will probably be just as expensive, if not more, since the toll plazas are past their useful life and need to be rebuilt. Either way, it appears the recently announced toll increase will go to cover the cost.
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  #62  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 1:17 AM
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A story last April suggested COVID may slow the project down, noting the drop in crossings.
It stands out to me how these articles refer to modernization efforts to accept credit or debit but I don't know of any modern projects around here (meaning the western part of North America I've done road trips around in recent years) that use that kind of toll system. They are all based on reading license plates and they periodically mail bills out. There is no visible collection infrastructure or tolling step that bridge or highway users encounter during travel. It's hard to imagine how that could be less cost effective than the toll booths.

(Note that improving throughput and reducing hassle at the bridges should increase usage. Even just taking out the gates and lane changes would speed things up, and the optical plate reading systems don't need vehicles to slow down or stop.)

The electronic Port Mann Bridge tolling was set up in 2012 and the tolls have since been eliminated.

Last edited by someone123; Feb 20, 2021 at 1:28 AM.
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  #63  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 1:48 AM
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Last edited by ns_kid; Feb 20, 2021 at 2:02 AM. Reason: Removed duplicate post
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  #64  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 1:52 AM
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It stands out to me how these articles refer to modernization efforts to accept credit or debit but I don't know of any modern projects around here (meaning the western part of North America I've done road trips around in recent years) that use that kind of toll system. They are all based on reading license plates and they periodically mail bills out. There is no visible collection infrastructure or tolling step that bridge or highway users encounter during travel. It's hard to imagine how that could be less cost effective than the toll booths.

(Note that improving throughput and reducing hassle at the bridges should increase usage. Even just taking out the gates and lane changes would speed things up, and the optical plate reading systems don't need vehicles to slow down or stop.)

The electronic Port Mann Bridge tolling was set up in 2012 and the tolls have since been eliminated.
I believe AET is the bridge commission’s preferred solution. But they need the UARB’s approval and that means demonstrating the public is onboard with the change. And this is Nova Scotia, where there’s always a vocal minority who hate change. They don’t want their license plates read, they don’t want to set up a payment account and they don’t want to get bills in the mail. (Hell, 20 years after MacPass was introduced there is still 15% of users clinging to cash. I know some of them...regular bridge crossers who insist on throwing loonies in the basket every time.) As long as there are vocal opponents, UARB will quite probably insist the bridge commission keep taking cash.
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  #65  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 3:22 AM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
It stands out to me how these articles refer to modernization efforts to accept credit or debit but I don't know of any modern projects around here (meaning the western part of North America I've done road trips around in recent years) that use that kind of toll system. They are all based on reading license plates and they periodically mail bills out. There is no visible collection infrastructure or tolling step that bridge or highway users encounter during travel.
And yet if you drive much on, for example, Florida's highways and bridges, you'll still encounter lots of toll plazas staffed with human beings collecting cash tolls by hand.
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  #66  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 7:50 AM
ILoveHalifax ILoveHalifax is offline
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And yet if you drive much on, for example, Florida's highways and bridges, you'll still encounter lots of toll plazas staffed with human beings collecting cash tolls by hand.
I live in Florida and have a SunPass which includes a transponder on my windshield. I maintain a SunPass account that adds money to the account from my credit card as needed and all automatically. I get a notice when they add to my account. I don't drive much these days but it is on my car for those occasional trips
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  #67  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 1:02 PM
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I believe AET is the bridge commission’s preferred solution. But they need the UARB’s approval and that means demonstrating the public is onboard with the change. And this is Nova Scotia, where there’s always a vocal minority who hate change. They don’t want their license plates read, they don’t want to set up a payment account and they don’t want to get bills in the mail. (Hell, 20 years after MacPass was introduced there is still 15% of users clinging to cash. I know some of them...regular bridge crossers who insist on throwing loonies in the basket every time.) As long as there are vocal opponents, UARB will quite probably insist the bridge commission keep taking cash.
From the POV of the Bridge Commission, there may or may not be a business case for these types of toll changes. The plate-reading type would require that technology obviously, but it might also require a return to a front license plate in NS, which would be widely unpopular and expensive for the province. Then there is the cost of dealing with the concept of "mailing out a bill" (I cannot imagine they would even offer such an option) to those without an account.

I have often thought while sitting in "the funnel" for rush hour traffic on the MacKay that on a 4-lane bridge like that leading to a 4-lane highway, you would just need two toll collection lanes in either direction for electronic tolling, and a third well off to the side for those who are not so inclined. Of course they would also need to increase the speed at which one goes through the tolls from the ridiculously slow 15 km/h at present. And of course on the Macdonald, all bets are off since the obstacle there is not so much the tolls themselves but the immediate signalized at-grade intersection at Wyse and Nantucket which is the main reason for those tolls being backlogged.

There are few easy answers to this.
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  #68  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 3:35 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax View Post
I live in Florida and have a SunPass which includes a transponder on my windshield. I maintain a SunPass account that adds money to the account from my credit card as needed and all automatically. I get a notice when they add to my account. I don't drive much these days but it is on my car for those occasional trips
Of course, and I didn't mean to suggest that e-passes weren't used - in fact, years ago I used a SunPass myself on a rental car there (rookie mistake - big upsell ripoff). But I'm always surprised to see how many people still seem to prefer to hand cash to human toll collectors and how many lanes are still dedicated to that.

For that matter, I'm always intrigued by the continuing prevalence of cash usage in the US. Americans seem still to prefer it in much larger proportion than Canadians.

Last edited by Saul Goode; Feb 20, 2021 at 6:59 PM.
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  #69  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 4:14 PM
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For that matter, I'm always intrigued by the continuing prevalence of cash usage in the US. Americans seem still to prefer it in much larger proportion than Canadians.
It's odd for sure. I used to work for a retail chain here and maybe 7 years ago I went to a North American retail conference in the southern US. I noticed when picking up my rental car and buying a few things in stores prior to the event getting underway that none of the places had POS terminals that used chips, still requiring the mag stripe to be swiped. During the conference I mentioned it to a guy from the midwest during a coffee break and he looked at me like I had 2 heads. He had never heard of the concept of a chip card, much less used one. I had to explain to him how they worked. When I told him some places even used a tap function with no PIN he was horrified, seeing nothing but problems with the concept. And as you say, it is not uncommon there to see people with wallets stuffed full of cash. I think it stems from the basic distrust many there have of govts/corporations spying on them and tracking their activity.
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  #70  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 6:31 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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...none of the places had POS terminals that used chips, still requiring the mag stripe to be swiped.
Equally weird (and this has happened to me as recently as last March, just days before the great COVID flap) was being required to sign for a credit card purchase. I can't remember doing that in Canada for many years.

Also: pennies and $1 bills ("singles", as Americans like to call them) are just plain annoying pocket clutter. I've had a few truly surreal conversations there, trying to explain the concept of rounding prices up or down in cash transactions to obviate the need for pennies. Some people are immediately certain that that's just a sneaky government scheme (hearkens back to your government distrust theory) to squeeze more money out of unsuspecting citizens - they don't even seem to hear the "down" part of the theory.

Last edited by Saul Goode; Feb 20, 2021 at 6:44 PM.
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  #71  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 12:08 AM
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There are no immediate plans to completely change Wyse. Longer-term, it's a spot that likely will get redesigned. When the Bridge Commission moves to electronic tolls, than the whole toll plaza can come out and that giant expanse of asphalt that is really more about providing space for queuing cars can go. A roundabout at the Bridge might be possible, but preserving transit priority through there is also key so not sure if that will work or not.

Wyse will never be a single lane each direction sort of place, but there is a ton of wasted space there now that could be better used for transit, bikes, or better streetscaping. We don't need three lanes going towards Alderney from the Bridge. One, plus a turn lane to get to Thistle would work fine. We don't need a slip lane in front of this proposal for right-hand turns onto Nantucket since almost nobody does that and the straight through lane isn't really busy and could easily hold the rare right-hand turning vehicle without any impact. On the other side of the Bridge intersection, three lanes northbound to Boland is a lot of wasted space. One or two would be more than fine. We also have an extra lane southbound, although it might be necessary to keep two rights coming onto the Bridge.

I'm not expecting anything major to change here, beyond the upcoming bike lane, until the electronic toll piece comes together. That will trigger a broader look and it's needed. Wyse is one of the big growth centres in the Centre Plan. If we expect denser, more urban development rather than car-focussed suburban strip mall, we need a street that fits that. What's there now doesn't
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  #72  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 3:26 AM
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It's odd for sure. I used to work for a retail chain here and maybe 7 years ago I went to a North American retail conference in the southern US. I noticed when picking up my rental car and buying a few things in stores prior to the event getting underway that none of the places had POS terminals that used chips, still requiring the mag stripe to be swiped. During the conference I mentioned it to a guy from the midwest during a coffee break and he looked at me like I had 2 heads. He had never heard of the concept of a chip card, much less used one. I had to explain to him how they worked. When I told him some places even used a tap function with no PIN he was horrified, seeing nothing but problems with the concept. And as you say, it is not uncommon there to see people with wallets stuffed full of cash. I think it stems from the basic distrust many there have of govts/corporations spying on them and tracking their activity.
American banks are years behind Canadian banking. Up until recently a deposit was done on a hand written slip which was done away with years ago in Canada and your banking card did practically nothing for you at the wicket - they still had to ask for all kinds of I D AND the tellers will out right tell you how the US is way behind Canada. Of course that is commonly known in just about every other area as well.
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  #73  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 5:01 AM
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There are no immediate plans to completely change Wyse. Longer-term, it's a spot that likely will get redesigned. When the Bridge Commission moves to electronic tolls, than the whole toll plaza can come out and that giant expanse of asphalt that is really more about providing space for queuing cars can go. A roundabout at the Bridge might be possible, but preserving transit priority through there is also key so not sure if that will work or not.

Wyse will never be a single lane each direction sort of place, but there is a ton of wasted space there now that could be better used for transit, bikes, or better streetscaping. We don't need three lanes going towards Alderney from the Bridge. One, plus a turn lane to get to Thistle would work fine. We don't need a slip lane in front of this proposal for right-hand turns onto Nantucket since almost nobody does that and the straight through lane isn't really busy and could easily hold the rare right-hand turning vehicle without any impact. On the other side of the Bridge intersection, three lanes northbound to Boland is a lot of wasted space. One or two would be more than fine. We also have an extra lane southbound, although it might be necessary to keep two rights coming onto the Bridge.

I'm not expecting anything major to change here, beyond the upcoming bike lane, until the electronic toll piece comes together. That will trigger a broader look and it's needed. Wyse is one of the big growth centres in the Centre Plan. If we expect denser, more urban development rather than car-focussed suburban strip mall, we need a street that fits that. What's there now doesn't
Are there any plans to do anything with the parking lot around the Sportsplex? I know it's part of the Dartmouth Common so what can be done is limited, but I've always found it pretty weird that the central transit terminal in Dartmouth has a park-and-ride attached to it

And I'm sure the idea of affordable housing right next to a transit terminal, schools, a grocery store, a park, etc could get some support

Last edited by Querce; Feb 21, 2021 at 5:50 AM.
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  #74  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by spaustin View Post
There are no immediate plans to completely change Wyse. Longer-term, it's a spot that likely will get redesigned. When the Bridge Commission moves to electronic tolls, than the whole toll plaza can come out and that giant expanse of asphalt that is really more about providing space for queuing cars can go. A roundabout at the Bridge might be possible, but preserving transit priority through there is also key so not sure if that will work or not.

Wyse will never be a single lane each direction sort of place, but there is a ton of wasted space there now that could be better used for transit, bikes, or better streetscaping. We don't need three lanes going towards Alderney from the Bridge. One, plus a turn lane to get to Thistle would work fine. We don't need a slip lane in front of this proposal for right-hand turns onto Nantucket since almost nobody does that and the straight through lane isn't really busy and could easily hold the rare right-hand turning vehicle without any impact. On the other side of the Bridge intersection, three lanes northbound to Boland is a lot of wasted space. One or two would be more than fine. We also have an extra lane southbound, although it might be necessary to keep two rights coming onto the Bridge.

I'm not expecting anything major to change here, beyond the upcoming bike lane, until the electronic toll piece comes together. That will trigger a broader look and it's needed. Wyse is one of the big growth centres in the Centre Plan. If we expect denser, more urban development rather than car-focussed suburban strip mall, we need a street that fits that. What's there now doesn't
Please stick to being a councillor and try to represent the interests of your constituents instead of being a road designer. I am astounded that someone in your position thinks that the terminus of one of the two main routes from Halifax peninsula to Dartmouth should resemble a low-volume residential intersection. I know present-day planning theory hates things like slip lanes (to say "nobody uses it" is patently false) and strip malls but in the former case they are necessary for efficient movement of high traffic volumes and in the latter they have been there for decades already so unless you are planning to use tax dollars to expropriate them then they need to be accommodated.

Mention of a roundabout there is either a masterful troll job or actual lunacy. Meanwhile none of the things you mention will do anything about the rush hour backups in that location except make them worse. Bikes and buses will not be able to significantly reduce that in our lifetimes so please stop using the HRM treasury to build sandboxes for planning anti-vehicle experiments.
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  #75  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 12:45 PM
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Please stick to being a councillor and try to represent the interests of your constituents instead of being a road designer. I am astounded that someone in your position thinks that the terminus of one of the two main routes from Halifax peninsula to Dartmouth should resemble a low-volume residential intersection. I know present-day planning theory hates things like slip lanes (to say "nobody uses it" is patently false) and strip malls but in the former case they are necessary for efficient movement of high traffic volumes and in the latter they have been there for decades already so unless you are planning to use tax dollars to expropriate them then they need to be accommodated.

Mention of a roundabout there is either a masterful troll job or actual lunacy. Meanwhile none of the things you mention will do anything about the rush hour backups in that location except make them worse. Bikes and buses will not be able to significantly reduce that in our lifetimes so please stop using the HRM treasury to build sandboxes for planning anti-vehicle experiments.

I agree, we do not need fewer lanes here. I drive through here every day at rush hour it is always backed up. I'm all for streetscaping and making the area more pedestrian-friendly, but not at the expense of lanes and traffic flow, as a major artery on and off the peninsula.

Last edited by Haliguy; Feb 21, 2021 at 1:14 PM.
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  #76  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 2:59 PM
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I think the councillor was sharing the “word on the street” of what would happen and not just his thoughts of what should happen.

The toll lanes are compensation for a slow processing system, which ultimately loose their advantage when you’re free to drive through without slowing down to pay. I doubt the bottleneck of a three lane bridge could make extra lanes useful.
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  #77  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 3:36 PM
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I mean, I don't really get why you would need a 10 lanes to go into a 3 lane bridge if people don't have to wait at toll booths, but I guess you must know better, right Keith?
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  #78  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 4:50 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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We don't need a slip lane in front of this proposal for right-hand turns onto Nantucket since almost nobody does that
Well, call me nobody - I use that slip lane frequently.

And while you're here, councillor, I'd like to say for the record that I have now been unable more than a few times to turn left from Hawthorne northbound onto Prince Albert westbound within one traffic light cycle. I'm pretty sure you said that wouldn't happen when the dedicated left-turn lane was eliminated for installation of one of those inane (and in the case of that intersection, plainly unnecessary) "bump-outs" (I don't recall the plannerese term for them).

For that matter why was it deemed necessary to put four (or is it five?) of the stupid things on Joffre Street? The only purpose they seem to serve there is to piss off snow plow drivers.

Last edited by Saul Goode; Feb 21, 2021 at 5:43 PM.
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  #79  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 5:39 PM
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I mean, I don't really get why you would need a 10 lanes to go into a 3 lane bridge if people don't have to wait at toll booths, but I guess you must know better, right Keith?
Please point out to me the post where I said 10 lanes were required for a 3-lane bridge. As I stated, the backups that fill those 10 lanes are due to HRM street network bottlenecks dating back many decades that have never been addressed to improve flow. Building more bottlenecks may require an even wider funnel.
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  #80  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 5:44 PM
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Well, call me nobody - I use that slip lane frequently.

And while you're here, councillor, I'd like to say for the record that I have now been unable on two occasions to turn left from Hawthorne northbound onto Prince Albert westbound within one traffic light cycle. I'm pretty sure you said that wouldn't happen when the dedicated left-turn lane was eliminated for installation of one of those inane (and in the case of that intersection, plainly unnecessary) "bump-outs" (I don't recall the plannerese term for them).

For that matter why was it deemed necessary to put four (or is it five) of the stupid things on Joffre Street? The only purpose they seem to serve there is to piss off snow plow drivers.
Bump outs (or the more politically correct "curb extensions") are the councillor's favorite toy at present. With a near-unlimited budget to waste on such things, they are appearing everywhere in that district. Just wait until this summer when the "Slow Streets" project gets revived with concrete islands replacing the easily moved orange cones. HRM is apparently both made of money and staffed by charter members of the Anti-Destination Association.
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