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  #1  
Old Posted May 1, 2015, 7:21 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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No change at City Hall

Richard Butts will not be the new CAO in Toronto.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle24200300/

I previously posted this item under the heading "Toronto has a new CAO.." and it appears a moderator has deleted the post without realising the item referred to Halifax.
A number of people apparently thought Mr Butts left Toronto because of Rob Ford but I thought he wanted to be a CAO rather than be one of 3 Deputy CAOs. Others have told me he 'is tight with Tory'. A few more years in Halifax will be good for him.
I week ago I was in Toronto for several days, in the Junction area. The city is a black hole sucking in an unending stream of people with constant change in many neighbourhoods. Anyone know why their main roads were so wide more than 100 years ago ?
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  #2  
Old Posted May 1, 2015, 8:05 PM
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Anyone know why their main roads were so wide more than 100 years ago ?
Perhaps their civic leaders had some foresight, unlike ours who only bothered to make cartpaths.
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  #3  
Old Posted May 1, 2015, 10:48 PM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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Perhaps their civic leaders had some foresight, unlike ours who only bothered to make cartpaths.
Yesterday I came to the conclusion the streets were designed for the width of 2 carts plus passing space.
I took a photo of the Campbell Building, corner of Dundas & Keele. Red brick built in 1888 with new Pella windows and cheap small businesses on the street level and kept wondering how busy that area was at that time and how a decision was made to have such wide streets.
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Old Posted May 2, 2015, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin May View Post
Anyone know why their main roads were so wide more than 100 years ago ?
I think a big part of it is just that Toronto is a newer city. It doesn't have a lot of roads from the 1700's and early 1800's. Many of the narrowest roads in Halifax date back to that period.

Toronto has easier geography to deal with too. Flatter, less water, less rock. Road building is easier and cheaper there. Not sure this is actually a good thing. Toronto has a lot of large, unfriendly arterial type roads even in the urban core.
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Old Posted May 2, 2015, 12:35 AM
Colin May Colin May is offline
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I think a big part of it is just that Toronto is a newer city. It doesn't have a lot of roads from the 1700's and early 1800's. Many of the narrowest roads in Halifax date back to that period.

Toronto has easier geography to deal with too. Flatter, less water, less rock. Road building is easier and cheaper there. Not sure this is actually a good thing. Toronto has a lot of large, unfriendly arterial type roads even in the urban core.
All good points. I like those wide streets because they also have wide sidewalks and tall buildings are less imposing. The width allows more light onto the sidewalks and provides a more pleasant pedestrian experience, you don't feel hemmed in.
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Old Posted May 2, 2015, 2:22 AM
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From an aesthetic and charismatic perspective I greatly prefer our narrower streets. Feeling cozy and hemmed in and having tall buildings that seem imposing are huge assets to the enjoyability of a city for me. One of the reasons (big) Sydney is so attractive compared to many cities in NA.
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  #7  
Old Posted May 2, 2015, 4:32 PM
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From an aesthetic and charismatic perspective I greatly prefer our narrower streets. Feeling cozy and hemmed in and having tall buildings that seem imposing are huge assets to the enjoyability of a city for me. One of the reasons (big) Sydney is so attractive compared to many cities in NA.
Here here.

Narrow streets + height = win.

Unfortunately it hurts our ability to get trams on most streets.
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  #8  
Old Posted May 2, 2015, 6:08 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin May View Post
Richard Butts will not be the new CAO in Toronto.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle24200300/

I previously posted this item under the heading "Toronto has a new CAO.." and it appears a moderator has deleted the post without realising the item referred to Halifax.
A number of people apparently thought Mr Butts left Toronto because of Rob Ford but I thought he wanted to be a CAO rather than be one of 3 Deputy CAOs. Others have told me he 'is tight with Tory'. A few more years in Halifax will be good for him.
I week ago I was in Toronto for several days, in the Junction area. The city is a black hole sucking in an unending stream of people with constant change in many neighbourhoods. Anyone know why their main roads were so wide more than 100 years ago ?
People are really attached to this civic myth that Halifax has freakishly narrow streets. Honestly, I think it's another permutation of the "oh we're so backwards" tendency.

The Junction wasn't part of Toronto when all that was built--it was its own town and that was the main route through it. There are other parts of Dundas that are much narrower, closer to downtown. Downtown King Street is in parts no wider than Barrington. Ditto lower Yonge.

Our streets are perfectly normal for a city of this age. Once you get out of the immediate downtown especially--Gottingen, Spring Garden, Quinpool. Compare this to Boston, lower Manhattan, most of Europe. The streets in New York's financial district are mostly narrower than downtown Halifax's, and the traffic volumes are far higher. Hearing people bitch about narrow roads like it's some Hali-specific failure is getting really boring.
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  #9  
Old Posted May 2, 2015, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
Our streets are perfectly normal for a city of this age. Once you get out of the immediate downtown especially--Gottingen, Spring Garden, Quinpool. Compare this to Boston, lower Manhattan, most of Europe. The streets in New York's financial district are mostly narrower than downtown Halifax's, and the traffic volumes are far higher. Hearing people bitch about narrow roads like it's some Hali-specific failure is getting really boring.
What you conveniently overlook is that our main arteries/entryways into the city are ridiculously choked off. No city of this size should have one-lane entries into the central, most densely built-up part of the city. Imagine coming into Boston and dealing with the likes of North Street. Or going into New York and facing Robie as it exists between Young and Cunard, or Bayers as it sits east of Connaught. Would any other city tolerate heavy truck traffic for 45 years on Hollis and Lower Water? Or require traffic exiting the downtown to make an uncontroilled left turn across traffic on to a short residential street, then to travel on another residential street, in order to get to the toll bridge to take them to Dartmouth, as Haligonians had to do for 45 years until the Barrington ramp was built for the MacDonald Bridge? It is beyond ridiculous and indicative of the incredible resistance of people in this city to face the reality that it is no longer 1940. Throw in the absurd bike lanes that virtually never get used and our streets are even more choked.
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  #10  
Old Posted May 2, 2015, 7:00 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
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I'll definitely concede that we have bad access to the city centre. But definitely not that he streets in the centre itself are too narrow. (Also, if we were so resistant to change, I bet the interchange would never have been built, and we'd have more of those fundamentally urban "cart paths" we lament.)
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  #11  
Old Posted May 2, 2015, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
.
.
(Also, if we were so resistant to change, I bet the interchange would never have been built, and we'd have more of those fundamentally urban "cart paths" we lament.)
When the Interchange was built it was because people wanted change (it was built 45 years ago). The Harbour Drive through downtown Halifax was stopped at a time when cities like Toronto were building the Gardiner Expressway. If anything, Halifax was ahead of its time by stopping the Harbour Drive. Unfortunately, the Interchange went ahead.

I am sure that many, perhaps most people, like the narrow streets of Halifax.

Getting back on topic, I am sorry to see that Richard Butts didn't get the Toronto job that he applied for, but I hope he will stay on in Halifax since I think he is doing a good job and has brought stability to the CAO position in Halifax.
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  #12  
Old Posted May 2, 2015, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
I'll definitely concede that we have bad access to the city centre. But definitely not that he streets in the centre itself are too narrow. (Also, if we were so resistant to change, I bet the interchange would never have been built, and we'd have more of those fundamentally urban "cart paths" we lament.)
There's a stubborn, false line of thinking that transportation by car is the ultimate ideal we should be reaching for. Cars are good in some places but not others. They are great if you live in a sparsely-populated rural area. They are completely unworkable in a place like Manhattan. They don't work well everywhere. They don't even work well in a lot of the places that were explicitly designed for them. The 1950-1990 period was a time of experimentation with expensive infrastructure that was going to make cars work well everywhere. The results (including the bills) are in at this point and the whole endeavour was hardly a resounding success. At this point the attitude that everything will work out if we just double down yet again on highways isn't very credible.

There also used to be a line of thinking that low density is best, but if this is true then why do people keep trying to crowd into places like central Paris, Manhattan, or San Francisco? This is a purely free market effect based on people's preferences; city planning actually discourages development in these areas but prices have skyrocketed. The most desirable places attract people and remain desirable in spite of (or maybe because of) their density, and these dense areas are not suited to cars, period. Cars cannot serve a significant percentage of the transportation needs of densely-populated areas.

It would be a lot easier in Halifax if everybody just accepted a more balanced role for cars. At this point, I think most people are starting to come around. Cars are never going to be a perfect solution downtown, or, if we look at it the other way, nobody wants a downtown that is a good place for cars. Other solutions are needed; more people need to be able to take transit, walk, or bike to their destinations on the peninsula and downtown. Halifax should keep its streets as they are and find a solution that works for the city people want.
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  #13  
Old Posted May 2, 2015, 8:14 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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There's a stubborn, false line of thinking that transportation by car is the ultimate ideal we should be reaching for. Cars are good in some places but not others. They are great if you live in a sparsely-populated rural area. They are completely unworkable in a place like Manhattan. They don't work well everywhere. They don't even work well in a lot of the places that were explicitly designed for them. The 1950-1990 period was a time of experimentation with expensive infrastructure that was going to make cars work well everywhere. The results (including the bills) are in at this point and the whole endeavour was hardly a resounding success. At this point the attitude that everything will work out if we just double down yet again on highways isn't very credible.

There also used to be a line of thinking that low density is best, but if this is true then why do people keep trying to crowd into places like central Paris, Manhattan, or San Francisco? This is a purely free market effect based on people's preferences; city planning actually discourages development in these areas but prices have skyrocketed. The most desirable places attract people and remain desirable in spite of (or maybe because of) their density, and these dense areas are not suited to cars, period. Cars cannot serve a significant percentage of the transportation needs of densely-populated areas.

It would be a lot easier in Halifax if everybody just accepted a more balanced role for cars. At this point, I think most people are starting to come around. Cars are never going to be a perfect solution downtown, or, if we look at it the other way, nobody wants a downtown that is a good place for cars. Other solutions are needed; more people need to be able to take transit, walk, or bike to their destinations on the peninsula and downtown. Halifax should keep its streets as they are and find a solution that works for the city people want.


Exactly. Honestly, the car culture is harder on those with less. If you need a car and you don't make very much money: a) you won't be driving a nice car, b) its going to cost you alotttt of money.

Also, downtown business hurts due to the fact less people can come in easily.
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  #14  
Old Posted May 2, 2015, 8:43 PM
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Exactly. Honestly, the car culture is harder on those with less. If you need a car and you don't make very much money: a) you won't be driving a nice car, b) its going to cost you alotttt of money.
It's also hard on the elderly and the disabled. I'm noticing this with some older relatives, who came of age during the prime automobile era of the 1950's and 60's. They think of cars as being synonymous with freedom, and moved to areas where they could drive around easily. Today they can't drive much or at all, and the lack of alternatives means they are dependent on others to get around.

The suburbs are also pretty light on social interaction. A big, isolated house is great if you live with a big family. It's not so great for a single person. Younger people, particularly the wealthier ones, also aren't having as many kids and don't consider those neighbourhoods to be the ideal. I wonder if there will be a huge glut of cheap, aging Kingswood type houses in 10-20 years. If there isn't much population growth some outer suburbs may just hollow out like some urban neighbourhoods did in the 1970's. It makes the idea of remaking the urban core to handle commuter traffic seem even more out of touch.
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Old Posted May 2, 2015, 9:09 PM
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There's a stubborn, false line of thinking that transportation by car is the ultimate ideal we should be reaching for. Cars are good in some places but not others. They are great if you live in a sparsely-populated rural area. They are completely unworkable in a place like Manhattan. They don't work well everywhere. They don't even work well in a lot of the places that were explicitly designed for them. The 1950-1990 period was a time of experimentation with expensive infrastructure that was going to make cars work well everywhere. The results (including the bills) are in at this point and the whole endeavour was hardly a resounding success. At this point the attitude that everything will work out if we just double down yet again on highways isn't very credible.

There also used to be a line of thinking that low density is best, but if this is true then why do people keep trying to crowd into places like central Paris, Manhattan, or San Francisco? This is a purely free market effect based on people's preferences; city planning actually discourages development in these areas but prices have skyrocketed.
I can get you a very good deal on property in the central parts of Detroit or Baltimore.

Quote:
The most desirable places attract people and remain desirable in spite of (or maybe because of) their density, and these dense areas are not suited to cars, period. Cars cannot serve a significant percentage of the transportation needs of densely-populated areas.

It would be a lot easier in Halifax if everybody just accepted a more balanced role for cars. At this point, I think most people are starting to come around. Cars are never going to be a perfect solution downtown, or, if we look at it the other way, nobody wants a downtown that is a good place for cars. Other solutions are needed; more people need to be able to take transit, walk, or bike to their destinations on the peninsula and downtown. Halifax should keep its streets as they are and find a solution that works for the city people want.
The reality is that we don't live in Manhattan or Tokyo and cars are the preferred way for most people to get to where they need to go. Halifax isn't ever going to have a subway or a network of streetcars (which wouldn't work anyway because our streets are too narrow) and even Beijing has abandoned the bicycles that used to be prevalent there back in the 1970s in favor of the automobile. Saying cars only work if you live in a sparsely populated area implies they should only be on the plains of West Texas.

It never ceases to amaze me how ANY TIME someone proposes widening a street in this town the other side immediately goes to the straw man that expressways are not what we want. Well, guess what: nobody is arguing we need expressways on the peninsula. What we ARE arguing is that there are certain logical spots where some change has been needed for 50+ years, not only to accommodate cars, but to also handle the seemingly beloved diesel-spewing buses, trucks to move commercial traffic, and whatever else needs to get from A to B. We saw this with the compromised widening of Chebucto Rd which helped a little but not as much as it could have, and we see it now when I talk about obvious choke points like North St, parts of Robie St, and parts of Bayers Rd.

It is simply insane. There is no other word for it.
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Old Posted May 2, 2015, 9:17 PM
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I can get you a very good deal on property in the central parts of Detroit or Baltimore.
This is true. There are desirable and undesirable low and high density areas. I'm just responding to the claim I sometimes hear that lower density is inherently better (and that the areas better-suited to cars are therefore always better). I think it's declining now but there used to be a strong "why can't everything be Clayton Park?" contingent in Halifax.

Quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how ANY TIME someone proposes widening a street in this town the other side immediately goes to the straw man that expressways are not what we want. Well, guess what: nobody is arguing we need expressways on the peninsula. What we ARE arguing is that there are certain logical spots where some change has been needed for 50+ years, not only to accommodate cars, but to also handle the seemingly beloved diesel-spewing buses, trucks to move commercial traffic, and whatever else needs to get from A to B. We saw this with the compromised widening of Chebucto Rd which helped a little but not as much as it could have, and we see it now when I talk about obvious choke points like North St, parts of Robie St, and parts of Bayers Rd.
I agree with this. I think the right way to look at transportation planning is to consider appropriate modal shares and plan projects on a case-by-case basis. Manhattan might be 5% cars. A farming area might be 100%. Downtown Halifax should probably be closer to the 5% than the 100%; maybe 20% or 30%, but in the past 90% or more of the transportation investment has been aimed at moving more cars around. Halifax doesn't even have dedicated bus lanes downtown even though key bus routes carry more people than some of the de facto arteries downtown.

I'm not so sure that streetcars wouldn't work in Halifax though. They already have worked. Streetcars or LRT might be a good transportation solution sometime in the future. Unfortunately, they are not even considered right now because most funding is going to roads and suburban transportation needs seem to get a higher priority (so peninsula-specific projects are non-starters but HRM council has been obsessed with Bedford transit for decades, although nothing has actually been accomplished). I agree that part of this is probably because of past opposition to transportation projects in the core. The old transportation projects were mostly bad projects like Cogswell, however. Maybe people would be more receptive to transit projects that would be more efficient land-wise and less disruptive. I think it would be easy to get downtown residents on board with replacing buses with electric trains.
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