PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by summersm343

The buildings will require full demo. They're unsalvageable. Hopefully the facades can be preserved as a part of a new development here at the very least.

Is that confirmed? They’ve been working on them for a while now and it def doesn’t look like they are being knocked down?

Anyways - everyone should get down to Walnut and go shopping one weekend - safely. Dilworth Park is open - go ice skate, pop around Walnut - and buy some stuff!

Also, FWIW, I can’t imagine Walnut Street is the only retail strip in America that’s not getting hit hard. I wish the city would pass an ordinance to try and preserve the street. The only places that could afford the high rents over the last few years are banks and cell phone stores - which doesn’t make for a great experience. Perhaps COVID will be a bit of a market correction and the rents will drop to a proportional level that works for everyone.

It shouldn’t be forgotten that Chestnut St. has also had a nice resurgence over the last 5 years - UNIQLO, Nordstrom Rack, Bloomingdales Outlet, Sephora, etc. to name a few.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Is that confirmed? They’ve been working on them for a while now and it def doesn’t look like they are being knocked down?

Yes, L&I is requiring a complete demo and the historical commission is requiring them to be rebuilt as they were, which to me means they're going to stay vacant lots unless they can sell it to someone who can build a tower behind them

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Is that confirmed? They’ve been working on them for a while now and it def doesn’t look like they are being knocked down?

Anyways - everyone should get down to Walnut and go shopping one weekend - safely. Dilworth Park is open - go ice skate, pop around Walnut - and buy some stuff!

Also, FWIW, I can’t imagine Walnut Street is the only retail strip in America that’s not getting hit hard. I wish the city would pass an ordinance to try and preserve the street. The only places that could afford the high rents over the last few years are banks and cell phone stores - which doesn’t make for a great experience. Perhaps COVID will be a bit of a market correction and the rents will drop to a proportional level that works for everyone.

It shouldn’t be forgotten that Chestnut St. has also had a nice resurgence over the last 5 years - UNIQLO, Nordstrom Rack, Bloomingdales Outlet, Sephora, etc. to name a few.

Its not the only retail street in America facing tough times. I was on Madison Ave a month or so back and it's completely decimated. I also heard Michigan Ave in Chicago is going through hard times, and Newbury Street in Boston as well.

Chestnut Street is looking amazing, and has definitely seen a nice resurgence. Even Market East is turning around with the revamped Gallery Mall.

My point is though, that Walnut Street should be an uber luxury stretch, like the new luxury wing of the KOP Mall. Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Burberry, Christian Louboutin, Stuart Weitzman, David Yurman, Hermes, Cartier, Fendi, Bottega Veneta, Jimmy Choo, MCM, Salvatore Ferragamo, Shinola, Carolina Herrera, YSL, Tory Burch, Chanel, Montblanc, Saint Laurent, Hugo Boss.... these stores should have Walnut Street addresses too... all of the big cities in the US have retail strips with these stores AND malls in the suburbs with these stores: NYC, San Fran, LA, Chicago, DC, Boston, Miami, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta. Philly is the only major US city that doesn't have this sort of luxury shopping downtown.

[iheartphilly]

Boyd's is luxury high end shopping "downtown" and it's opened for business. They have adapted in the current environment well.

I have no doubts Walnut St. luxury retail will come back stronger than ever. The Laurel and the other proposed high rise a few blocks away will bring additional customers when its all said and done. This will be good for business and demand will be back and will drive rent up again.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Boyd's is luxury high end shopping "downtown" and it's opened for business. They have adapted in the current environment well.

Boyds Retail Rebuilds After Looting Damages Store and Plans a Suburban Outpost for the First Time in 83 Years

Excerpt:

“It was a crime scene,” he said. “The city’s handling of the civil unrest was abominable and completely unacceptable. It was very angering to me but even more angering was that I never heard from anyone in the city government. Not a word. Zippo.”

Gushner re-opened Boyds on Sept. 16, six months after he had closed because of the pandemic and government shut down orders. He, like other retailers and businesses, was preparing to open at the beginning of June, eager to make up for some lost ground when the protests and looting took place. It set not only the store back but also Philadelphia, he said.

That Gushner decided to re-open in Center City came after a lot of soul searching. For the first time, the third-generation owner of Boyd’s entertained moving the storied, 83-year old retailer out of Philadelphia.

[PhillyDreamsReturns]

Delete please.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Is that confirmed? They’ve been working on them for a while now and it def doesn’t look like they are being knocked down

Been wondering this myself. In late October, I spoke with a few people that have been involved with the properties. The L&I recommendation to demolish was made over a month ago and from what I've seen, demolition permits still have not been issued. Given the buildings were burned in May, I would have expected L&I to have at least posted warnings by now. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any indication that they have been itemized on any Historical Commission meetings as of yet. Full demolition was expected to begin before the onset of winter and from what I can tell not much progress has been made. I was told some demo work was being done on the backside of the former McDonalds, but it appears to be minimal at best.

According to L&I and the HC demo permits would only be issued if the facades are rebuilt within a year. So if this holds true, it would seem difficult to prepare any large scale development here. Also, as far as I can tell no movement has been made to sell the properties. Its a bit strange really that all three seem to be suspended in limbo...

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by summersm343

The buildings will require full demo. They're unsalvageable. Hopefully the facades can be preserved as a part of a new development here at the very least.

Center City should have at least one upscale shopping street, and that should be Walnut Street. Every other major city has one at the very least. Although, who knows how COVID will continue to impact cities and the retail landscape.

King of Prussia is still booming. There's one stretch that seems to have a lot of vacancies, and of course, Lord & Taylor is closing as well, but otherwise, the mall is doing well.

I really hope the demolition of these structures doesn't results in a vacant lot for 5 years. The posts on here are informative, but there seems to be confusion on the rebuild requirements and timelines. I am all for a setback tower so long as the original facades are replicated.

And I completely agree regarding retail. Walnut should be Philadelphia's Madison Ave, but at this point I don't ever see that happening. KoP has been the dominant luxury shopping area for decades and has only gotten stronger.

But I don't see why certain brands like Hugo Boss, Tory Burch, etc. can't expand into the city. Hermes, Bottega, Jimmy Choo, etc. will keep their "Philadelphia" location in KoP, better sales and lower rents, and KoP Mall has Madison Ave level cachet as far as malls go. Walnut Street is nice, but it doesn't have a reputation where retailers are lining up.

I also think Simon is a marketing wiz for attracting retailers (they would have done a better job with the Gallery), another reason why KoP does better than Walnut. Not to get too off topic, there are rumors that Saks may relocate to the KoP L&T space since Hudson Bay owns the store and Bala Cynwyd is not the most ideal location anymore. I would love to see Saks move to Center City, but KoP makes more sense.

Originally Posted by Londonee

Is that confirmed? They’ve been working on them for a while now and it def doesn’t look like they are being knocked down?

Anyways - everyone should get down to Walnut and go shopping one weekend - safely. Dilworth Park is open - go ice skate, pop around Walnut - and buy some stuff!

Also, FWIW, I can’t imagine Walnut Street is the only retail strip in America that’s not getting hit hard. I wish the city would pass an ordinance to try and preserve the street. The only places that could afford the high rents over the last few years are banks and cell phone stores - which doesn’t make for a great experience. Perhaps COVID will be a bit of a market correction and the rents will drop to a proportional level that works for everyone.

It shouldn’t be forgotten that Chestnut St. has also had a nice resurgence over the last 5 years - UNIQLO, Nordstrom Rack, Bloomingdales Outlet, Sephora, etc. to name a few.

Every major retail street is getting hit hard. Retail in Philadelphia wasn't impressive to begin with so it doesn't show as much. But from a metro standpoint, retail has held up well in Philadelphia. Several high-end brands and department stores are closing up shop in Miami, Seattle, San Fran, even DC. The Philadelphia area only lost L&T (which is going under).

But my hope (like yours) is that rents will stabilize and retailers will re-evaluate the Philadelphia market. Plus, there are hundreds of million dollar condos under construction or planned in Center City, that will not go unnoticed. One of the reasons why KoP does so well is the extreme wealth surrounding the mall, Center City is now entering that level of wealth. Increased tourism will help too.

[summersm343]

^^Exactly. I'm not saying every store needs to be in Center City, but it could be better. There's a lot of stores in the KOP Mall and the surrounding area that should be in Center City.

For Market East, there should be:
-A Disney Snore
-Hershey's Chocolate World
-Legoland Discovery Center or Lego Store


Stores located in the KOP mall that SHOULD have a Center City presence:
-Abercrombie & Fitch - should be on Chestnut or Market East
-Against All Odds - Should be on Chestnut
-Alex and Ani - Chestnut or Market East
-Aritizia - Should be on Walnut
-Bloomingdales - Should be somewhere in Center City (yes, I understand the space needs are not really there in Center City, and yes, I know there is a Bloomingdale's Outlet on Chestnut)
-Hugo Boss - Should be on Walnut
-Burberry - Should be on Walnut
-Clarks - Should be on Chestnut
-Coach - Should be on Walnut
-Cole Haan - Should be on Walnut (and yes, I know there was a store that JUST closed)
-Crate & Barrell - Should be somewhere in Center City (yes, I know CB2 is their off-price brand)
-Godiva - Should be on Walnut or Chestnut at the least
-Gucci - Should be on Walnut
-Johnston & Murphy - Should be on Chestnut
-Longchamp - Should be on Walnut
-Louis Vuitton - Should be on Walnut
-Nordstrom - Should be in Center City (and yes, I know the space requirements aren't currently there, and there is a Nordstrom Rack on Chestnut)
-Oakley - Should be on Chestnut or at Market East
-Peloton - Should be on Walnut
-Pottery Barn - Should be in Center City
-Ralph Lauren - Should be on Walnut (yes, I know it was and it closed recently)
-Shinola - Should be on Walnut
-Stuart Weitzman - Should be on Walnut (yes, I know it was on Walnut and it JUST closed)
-Superdry - Should be on Chestnut
-Ted Baker - Should be on Walnut
-The Container Store - Should be somewhere in Center City
-Timberland - Should be on Chestnut or Market East (yes, I know it was on Walnut and it JUST closed, but I do think this was kindof a bad spot for it as well)
-Tory Burch - Should be on Walnut
-Vans - was on Walnut before the looting/fire/arson. Hopefully it comes back, even if it's to Chestnut or Market East - probably two locations it more properly belongs
-Vera Bradley - Should be on Chestnut
-White House Black Market - Should be on Chestnut
-Zara - Should be on Chestnut, or Market East (yes, I know there was one on Walnut that closed)

[Radio5]

Originally Posted by summersm343

^^Exactly. I'm not saying every store needs to be in Center City, but it could be better. There's a lot of stores in the KOP Mall and the surrounding area that should be in Center City.

For Market East, there should be:
-A Disney Snore
-Hershey's Chocolate World
-Legoland Discovery Center or Lego Store


Stores located in the KOP mall that SHOULD have a Center City presence:
-Abercrombie & Fitch - should be on Chestnut or Market East
-Against All Odds - Should be on Chestnut
-Alex and Ani - Chestnut or Market East
-Aritizia - Should be on Walnut
-Bloomingdales - Should be somewhere in Center City (yes, I understand the space needs are not really there in Center City, and yes, I know there is a Bloomingdale's Outlet on Chestnut)
-Hugo Boss - Should be on Walnut
-Burberry - Should be on Walnut
-Clarks - Should be on Chestnut
-Coach - Should be on Walnut
-Cole Haan - Should be on Walnut (and yes, I know there was a store that JUST closed)
-Crate & Barrell - Should be somewhere in Center City (yes, I know CB2 is their off-price brand)
-Godiva - Should be on Walnut or Chestnut at the least
-Gucci - Should be on Walnut
-Johnston & Murphy - Should be on Chestnut
-Longchamp - Should be on Walnut
-Louis Vuitton - Should be on Walnut
-Nordstrom - Should be in Center City (and yes, I know the space requirements aren't currently there, and there is a Nordstrom Rack on Chestnut)
-Oakley - Should be on Chestnut or at Market East
-Peloton - Should be on Walnut
-Pottery Barn - Should be in Center City
-Ralph Lauren - Should be on Walnut (yes, I know it was and it closed recently)
-Shinola - Should be on Walnut
-Stuart Weitzman - Should be on Walnut (yes, I know it was on Walnut and it JUST closed)
-Superdry - Should be on Chestnut
-Ted Baker - Should be on Walnut
-The Container Store - Should be somewhere in Center City
-Timberland - Should be on Chestnut or Market East (yes, I know it was on Walnut and it JUST closed, but I do think this was kindof a bad spot for it as well)
-Tory Burch - Should be on Walnut
-Vans - was on Walnut before the looting/fire/arson. Hopefully it comes back, even if it's to Chestnut or Market East - probably two locations it more properly belongs
-Vera Bradley - Should be on Chestnut
-White House Black Market - Should be on Chestnut
-Zara - Should be on Chestnut, or Market East (yes, I know there was one on Walnut that closed)

Agreed. It really is the only big city that doesn't have this. On the other hand, it's an interesting alternative. Does Philly need those stores to prosper? Could Philly create a new model based on more local retailers? Just thoughts.

[mcgrath618]

Unrelated, is there any chance that the Real Estate Trust building could ever be restored to its original design?

Before:


After:



Why was this even done?

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Radio5

Agreed. It really is the only big city that doesn't have this. On the other hand, it's an interesting alternative. Does Philly need those stores to prosper? Could Philly create a new model based on more local retailers? Just thoughts.

It probably doesn't need those stores necessarily no, but, I think it's important to have at least one street/neighborhood with those stores... Walnut Street/Rittenhosue is the place. Plus, Market East would should be a super touristy destination as well, so more brand name stores and recognizable names like Lego, Disney and Hershey would go a long way.

I think it's important to get more luxury stores on Walnut, and more brand name stores/companies in Market East if we want to raise the perception of Philadelphia domestically and international.

It's not just in the US either... most major, important cities have all or most of these stores as well.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Unrelated, is there any chance that the Real Estate Trust building could ever be restored to its original design


Why was this even done?

Doubt it. It would be too expensive now, and no company would take on that cost. What would they benefit from it?

I thought I read somewhere that it was damaged in a fire? I could be mistaken completely though and thinking about another building.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Doubt it. It would be too expensive now, and no company would take on that cost. What would they benefit from it?

I thought I read somewhere that it was damaged in a fire? I could be mistaken completely though and thinking about another building.

Didn't UArts partially do it with one of their buildings on South Broad? The one with the Wawa?

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Been wondering this myself. In late October, I spoke with a few people that have been involved with the properties. The L&I recommendation to demolish was made over a month ago and from what I've seen, demolition permits still have not been issued. Given the buildings were burned in May, I would have expected L&I to have at least posted warnings by now. Furthermore, there doesn't seem to be any indication that they have been itemized on any Historical Commission meetings as of yet. Full demolition was expected to begin before the onset of winter and from what I can tell not much progress has been made. I was told some demo work was being done on the backside of the former McDonalds, but it appears to be minimal at best.

I stayed on the 17th floor of the Palomar recently and had a clear view of the tops of these buildings. To me, it looked as though the rooves had collapsed in a way that made it seem as though more pressure is being pushed onto the front facades. It's hard to explain, but if you think a dormer roof, which is what these had, rather than collapsing inward in the center of the building (which would strike me as reducing pressure on the front facade), they seem to have become disconnected from the structure and instead of falling downward beneath the center of the roof, which is what I would expect, the entire roof structure is sliding forward and pushing against the top of the parapet that you can see from the street.

In other words, don't walk on the south side of 1700 block of Walnut.

I wouldn't be surprised if the buildings collapsed into the street at some point.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Radio5

Agreed. It really is the only big city that doesn't have this. On the other hand, it's an interesting alternative. Does Philly need those stores to prosper? Could Philly create a new model based on more local retailers? Just thoughts.

It had half of those stores - and they closed. Rents, market conditions, and COVID were all factors.

But, I've said this before on a million forums - Walnut Street just isn't branded as a retail destination. Hell, i bet 75% of Philadelphians if you polled them in the far northeast wouldn't know that Walnut Street is one of the main shopping corridors in the region - let alone tourists and visitors. It's just not branded the same as the other premier corridors like Fifth Avenue, Michigan Ave, Newbury Street, etc. - and that hurts foot traffic and business.

It's also not that well run. The sidewalks are cracked, dingy (Louis Vuitton isn't setting up shop above a cracked poorly maintained sidewalk), and need of a total re-do. There's no coordinated Christmas decoration effort like you see on Regent Street or Michigan Avenue that pull in suburban experience shoppers... as someone who lives nearby and shops here weekly, during the holidays the lack of festiveness is almost depressing.

AFAIK there's no beautification effort during the warmer months for the strip to enhance it's appeal like you'd find on Rodeo - they have a few hanging planters here and there but you wouldn't notice them unless i pointed them out to you.

It's just kind of...like, Philly. Not a ton of vision, the Rittenhouse Row leadership is summering in FL 8months a year, and ZERO interest from City Hall (they could pass ordinances prohibiting invasive cell phone stores and banks from setting up shop like Newbury Street has done) to do anything to enhance a clear urban need a potential moneymaker. Maybe Philly should enact a .5% tax on clothing and suddenly they'd be all in?

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I stayed on the 17th floor of the Palomar recently and had a clear view of the tops of these buildings. To me, it looked as though the rooves had collapsed in a way that made it seem as though more pressure is being pushed onto the front facades. It's hard to explain, but if you think a dormer roof, which is what these had, rather than collapsing inward in the center of the building (which would strike me as reducing pressure on the front facade), they seem to have become disconnected from the structure and instead of falling downward beneath the center of the roof, which is what I would expect, the entire roof structure is sliding forward and pushing against the top of the parapet that you can see from the street.

In other words, don't walk on the south side of 1700 block of Walnut.

I wouldn't be surprised if the buildings collapsed into the street at some point.

Thanks for the heads up! Its strange, L&I issued a warning that 1208 Walnut must be repaired within 30 days or it will be demolished (there was a small fire in the back a few weeks ago but if you walk past it, it looks completely fine). However, apparently the "violation" was a false alarm and it will not be demolished.

I don't understand the 1700 Block of Walnut - the fire was in May and yet they're still allowed to stand with just a recommendation? However, a new plumbing permit was issued for 1706 Walnut on Dec. 7 that aligns with the initial partial demo permit which keeps the façade intact. Not sure why a full demo permit wasn't issued in conjunction or why they'd be doing plumbing work if the façade wasn't secure. I'm not an engineer but perhaps they're not in as bad of shape as it seems.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Didn't UArts partially do it with one of their buildings on South Broad? The one with the Wawa?

Yes, they replicated and restored the the base detailing, which had been removed in the 50's/60's, using cheaper materials. If you look closely, you can kind of tell it's not the original, but its a respectable restoration nonetheless.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Doubt it. It would be too expensive now, and no company would take on that cost. What would they benefit from it?

I thought I read somewhere that it was damaged in a fire? I could be mistaken completely though and thinking about another building.

I doubt they'd ever restore the cornice, but if the building ever happed to become uber expensive luxury apartments/condos or a hotel someday, I wouldn't be surprised if the base was somewhat restored to attract tenants and interest. Its a bit of a mess right now.

[Boku]

Philadelphia sites selling at torrid pace as developers bank on city’s post-pandemic rebound

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...-in-phila.html

The sale of development sites throughout the region, and particularly in Philadelphia, is the highest it has been in at least five years, according to Real Capital Analytics data. By the end of the third quarter, $417.7 million of these properties had traded throughout the region with more than half of that transacted amount — $282.4 million — coming in Philadelphia.

“What I think is going on is a lot of developers are thinking about when they will deliver their product and what the environment will be like then,” he said. “If they close on the site today and break ground, they can deliver 18 to 24 months from now. It will be a full year after the pandemic and you will be ahead of the curve. There’s a lot of confidence in Philadelphia and that we will come out of this.”