HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > Halifax Peninsula & Downtown Dartmouth


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2014, 7:41 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
we built this city
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
It's still more of an impact than most shadows would have. It's one of the only instances that I've heard this argument used where it actually feels like it has at least some validity. I think this specific location is the only cricket (pitch? field?) in HRM... of course the argument can be made that one could be established elsewhere, but basically it comes down to: are the buildings affecting the utility of the Commons, if so, to what extent? What extent is acceptable? Because the more the Commons become less attractive to use, the more they are a huge dead zone in the middle of the city (that nonetheless won't be developed) rather than the huge asset that they currently are.
Would't people want shadow when playing the sport? You are making ridiculous assumptions... people get blinded by the setting sun right there.

Furthermore, its only a brief window of time.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2014, 7:42 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
we built this city
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,799
Your argument is like saying let's cut down all the trees.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 2:01 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Toronto area (ex-Nova Scotian)
Posts: 5,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by curnhalio View Post
I have driven by this area at 7:15pm and I can say that the 7:30pm summer shadow projection is accurate. So if these are built, that entire ball field by the corner will have a shadow across it. Do BANANA NIMBY's play softball? This too is a Pavlov's dog scenario. Development proposed that is 5+ stories *bell rings* OMG THE SHADOWS!!!

I wonder what the morning shadows are like in the other direction. You know, if Mrs. Jones' tulip garden on Parker St. doesn't get the right amount of morning sun those things will die .
Thanks for checking. I am amazed at what can be done with the free Sketchup program.

In Halifax I am sure that trees and clouds are much greater contributors to shadows than tall buildings.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 3:08 AM
Dmajackson's Avatar
Dmajackson Dmajackson is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: B3K Halifax, NS
Posts: 9,294
Details page is up on the HRM website;

Case 19281 Details

NOTE: Both proposals have to come back with amended plans to address the concerns about building height, density, shadows, and spacing.
__________________
NEW!!!Halifax Developments Blog

- DJ
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 1:15 PM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
It's still more of an impact than most shadows would have. It's one of the only instances that I've heard this argument used where it actually feels like it has at least some validity. I think this specific location is the only cricket (pitch? field?) in HRM... of course the argument can be made that one could be established elsewhere, but basically it comes down to: are the buildings affecting the utility of the Commons, if so, to what extent? What extent is acceptable? Because the more the Commons become less attractive to use, the more they are a huge dead zone in the middle of the city (that nonetheless won't be developed) rather than the huge asset that they currently are.
I always felt that a downside of the Commons, unlike, say, Central Park in New York or Stanley Park in Vancouver, is that there were never enough trees to provide shade.

And as for softball/baseball, think of the Skydome in Toronto. There are towering condos built all around it, casting shadows every which way at any time.

Shade is a fact of life for urban recreational areas, and really, would probably be welcome by people wishing to have green spaces with some protection from harmful sun rays on nice summer afternoons. Moreover, the shadows cast would be at a time least likely used, as others have pointed out.

Rest assured, the best way to turn The Commons into a "dead zone" is to suppress and obstruct much needed intense urban density development, common to pretty much every other major city in Canada, and have everyone living out in the suburbs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 5:00 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Calgary
Posts: 4,465
Quote:
Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
Rest assured, the best way to turn The Commons into a "dead zone" is to suppress and obstruct much needed intense urban density development, common to pretty much every other major city in Canada, and have everyone living out in the suburbs.
The fallacy here is that if we truly needed more intense development around the commons to make them viable, then the commons would be dead NOW. This isn't the case at all.

I'm also not sure that this type of development is "common to pretty much every other major city in Canada". Out of cities of a size comparable to Halifax, which of the following are infilling more intensely and have less suburban growth than Halifax?

Victoria
London ON
K-W-C
Windsor
Oshawa
St. Catharine's-Niagara
Regina
Saskatoon

Winnipeg?
Hamilton?

Note that I would love to see these buildings go ahead (with some modifications)... I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, as well as basically just saying what's in the staff report.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 5:17 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post

I'm also not sure that this type of development is "common to pretty much every other major city in Canada". Out of cities of a size comparable to Halifax, which of the following are infilling more intensely and have less suburban growth than Halifax?

Victoria
London ON
K-W-C
Windsor
Oshawa
St. Catharine's-Niagara
Regina
Saskatoon

Winnipeg?
Hamilton?
Good point—Halifax has a lot more going on in the city centre (and a better-built city centre, ultimately) than most of those. Maybe Winnipeg, Victoria, and Hamilton excepted. (Though for various reason I prefer Halifax to those cities—Victoria's a bit too quaint/geriatric, Winnipeg's a bit too dead, Hamilton's a bit too, uh, also dead. Haligonians who think Barrington is run-down should stroll down King Street in Hamilton. Nasty.)

I think Haligonians tend to compare the city with cities a step or two above in weight class, so we look at what Ottawa or Vancouver or Calgary or even Montreal are doing, which probably says something about how much we punch above our weight, as we like to say.

Which isn't to say I totally disagree with Counterfactual either. (I like shade and dislike intense sun.) The Commons are great, but it''ll be important to see more intense, albeit sensitively constructed, development around its periphery.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 7:20 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
Would't people want shadow when playing the sport? You are making ridiculous assumptions... people get blinded by the setting sun right there.

Furthermore, its only a brief window of time.
Good point, besides I would think that more people would be affected by reflective glare from the tall, gleaming, glass buildings than by shadows, but nobody's talking about that...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 7:34 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
I think Haligonians tend to compare the city with cities a step or two above in weight class, so we look at what Ottawa or Vancouver or Calgary or even Montreal are doing, which probably says something about how much we punch above our weight, as we like to say.
Excellent point. Heck, I regularly read comparisons to Toronto here which really only serves to consider Halifax's direction by understanding mistakes that the larger cities have made in the past.

That said, I think there are actually people out there who would prefer to live in a 400,000 pop city than a 2 million pop city due to the differences in scale.

I have to say after recent visits to Atlanta and New York I fit in that group. I like where Halifax is now, and where it is going, but hope it never becomes Toronto.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 7:36 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I have to say after recent visits to Atlanta and New York I fit in that group. I like where Halifax is now, and where it is going, but hope it never becomes Toronto.
Good point there as well. I moved here from Toronto, for several reasons, but partly because I wanted to live an urban lifestyle in a smaller city. I have no interest in living in a megalopolis.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2014, 8:34 PM
curnhalio's Avatar
curnhalio curnhalio is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Excellent point. Heck, I regularly read comparisons to Toronto here which really only serves to consider Halifax's direction by understanding mistakes that the larger cities have made in the past.

That said, I think there are actually people out there who would prefer to live in a 400,000 pop city than a 2 million pop city due to the differences in scale.

I have to say after recent visits to Atlanta and New York I fit in that group. I like where Halifax is now, and where it is going, but hope it never becomes Toronto.
Having been to New York myself several times, it is by far my favorite place to visit. I feel strangely at home there, yet I would never want to make it my home, if that makes any sense. Halifax could take a small page from New York, and adopt their mantra of "The past was great, but the future can be better." What heritage preservationists seem to forget is that the city has always been evolving. The peninsula area constantly changed for the first 200 years of its inhabited state (explosion not withstanding). There may have been outcries when the changes occurred back then, but they were quickly cast aside. We should be paying the history of this city the greatest homage we possibly can and continue to evolve and grow. Just try not to bump your head on the viewplanes .
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 12:59 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
The fallacy here is that if we truly needed more intense development around the commons to make them viable, then the commons would be dead NOW. This isn't the case at all.

I'm also not sure that this type of development is "common to pretty much every other major city in Canada". Out of cities of a size comparable to Halifax, which of the following are infilling more intensely and have less suburban growth than Halifax?

Victoria
London ON
K-W-C
Windsor
Oshawa
St. Catharine's-Niagara
Regina
Saskatoon

Winnipeg?
Hamilton?

Note that I would love to see these buildings go ahead (with some modifications)... I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, as well as basically just saying what's in the staff report.
I know you were being a (good) devil's advocate, Hali; I respect your take on things, as your views are often thoughtful and reasonable.

On that list of cities, I don't have all the data, but I can say that many of those cities are actually doing a better job than we are at curbing sprawl while far outstripping us in terms of downtown investment. Even much smaller cities are beating us on this count.

London, ON, for example, has launched a big re-think on urban planning (http://rethinklondon.ca) and placed a moratorium on office development outside the downtown core and significantly invested downtown.

Winnipeg has similarly tackled suburban sprawl head on:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4247832/

The Canadian Urban Institute did a study on "downtown investment" for Canadian cities in 2012. Halifax does pretty darn dismal.

http://downtownhalifax.ca/index.php/...ian-downtowns/

Report: https://www.ida-downtown.org/eweb/do...0DT%205-15.pdf

In terms of "Downtown Dwellings Percent Growth Between Census Periods", Halifax is bested by Edmonton massively, but also by London, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver. Only Saskatoon finished lower than us (p.16 of report).

In terms of "Downtown Office Space as a Percent of City Wide Inventory" (p. 17), we finished this time at the very bottom, bested by London (who led the way.. perhaps due to their tougher policy?), Winnipeg, Vancouver, Edmonton, Victoria, Toronto, Saskatoon, and Ottawa. Yes, we have a sprawl office problem in Halifax, maybe the worst in the country by comparable cities.

And don't even get me started on where we are compared to bigger and smaller cities in terms of downtown investment; we're bested by every city examined closely in that report-- London, Edmonton, Saskatoon, and Vancouver. Even Fredericton invested twice as much as we did downtown between 2006 and 2014! (84m vs our pathetic 34m!). We are likely doing better on this count now, with the Library / Convention Center, but we're playing catch up after decades of comparable neglect. We should not be investing at comparable levels now, but outstripping everyone else to catch up. We're not.

Back to the original question -- Commons does fine now, but I think to guarantee its future, we should have more people living nearby. Take it to new heights!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 1:10 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Excellent point. Heck, I regularly read comparisons to Toronto here which really only serves to consider Halifax's direction by understanding mistakes that the larger cities have made in the past.

That said, I think there are actually people out there who would prefer to live in a 400,000 pop city than a 2 million pop city due to the differences in scale.

I have to say after recent visits to Atlanta and New York I fit in that group. I like where Halifax is now, and where it is going, but hope it never becomes Toronto.
For some reason, I find Haligonians have this weird attitude towards Toronto; we condescend towards Toronto about being a superior, nicer, friendlier city, but then ragefit over proposals for tall buildings as if *one* high rise will automatically turn us into Toronto or something. Usual line: "18 floors?!?! Look, we don't need to be Toronto, okay??"

It's bizarre.

I think we can take plenty lessons from Toronto, both on what they've done wrong and right. Halifax will never be Toronto and following some things Toronto won't change this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 4:26 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
we built this city
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
For some reason, I find Haligonians have this weird attitude towards Toronto; we condescend towards Toronto about being a superior, nicer, friendlier city, but then ragefit over proposals for tall buildings as if *one* high rise will automatically turn us into Toronto or something. Usual line: "18 floors?!?! Look, we don't need to be Toronto, okay??"

It's bizarre.

I think we can take plenty lessons from Toronto, both on what they've done wrong and right. Halifax will never be Toronto and following some things Toronto won't change this.
Its highly bizarre, as if the cities slightly larger don't have mid-rise towers such as these. Toronto is on a whole other scale and its not even in the range of the cities with supertalls.

18 stories is not high-rise, its a taller mid-rise. We're not talking 40 story buildings here.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 3:29 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
For some reason, I find Haligonians have this weird attitude towards Toronto; we condescend towards Toronto about being a superior, nicer, friendlier city, but then ragefit over proposals for tall buildings as if *one* high rise will automatically turn us into Toronto or something. Usual line: "18 floors?!?! Look, we don't need to be Toronto, okay??"

It's bizarre.

I think we can take plenty lessons from Toronto, both on what they've done wrong and right. Halifax will never be Toronto and following some things Toronto won't change this.
I don't think your comment is personally directed towards me, but I will comment on it from a personal perspective. I can't speak for the other Haligonians to which you may be referring.

I have been to Toronto many times, for work and pleasure, have family and friends who live there. I enjoy visiting the area for all it has to offer, but at the same time don't enjoy the scale of the city compared to smaller ones (i.e. Halifax). This scale includes the sheer land area of the city (which affects commute times, for example) and the size of the population which seems to often result in compressed crowds at popular events/locations. These are just examples from my perspective of what I feel are negative aspects of the city.

So, while I enjoy what it has to offer, I feel it comes at a price, but what this price actually entails is all very subjective - I would hazard a guess that it varies from individual to individual.

Another thing about Toronto vs. say, Montreal or Vancouver, is that it doesn't have the "feel" of those cities. Can't objectify it, really, but to me it feels more like a city that exists to fulfill a function (i.e. to be a centre of business, etc.) rather than existing because people want to live there. Almost like a Fort McMurray in a strange sort of way (a little extreme, I realize), in that people go there to work but would really rather be somewhere else. I don't get that feel in other large cities.

I don't know about "ragefitting" about tall buildings, as we have tall buildings, just not as tall and not as numerous, but to be expected in a smaller city. I honestly don't come across this around here, but then maybe I travel in different circles. The aspect that I do hear about more is complaining about money spent on something, much the same way that Keith does here (no offense intended, Keith). However that complaining seems to die down once the project is finished and they can see the benefit of it in a tangible fashion (or, they get tired of complaining about it and move on to something else ).

But, yes, there is a difference between small, medium, and large cities. I fail to see, really, where it would be considered strange to have a preference towards one vs the other.

I wonder if this is just a symptom of being on a skyscraper messageboard, as I find that there seems to be a prevalent mentality of "either you're with us or against us", and it seems to be frowned upon to have views which straddle both worlds or to not agree that every building must be built in its tallest possible iteration (which will put you at risk of being labeled "anti development" or something similar). However, I believe this just is part of the "territory" of this board - no biggie one way or the other.

And yes, I do agree that we can learn a lot from Toronto, as I alluded to already.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 3:42 PM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,796
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
I don't think your comment is personally directed towards me, but I will comment on it from a personal perspective. I can't speak for the other Haligonians to which you may be referring.
To be clear, it wasn't!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 3:44 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 8,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by counterfactual View Post
To be clear, it wasn't!
Thanks for the clarification.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 4:47 PM
beyeas beyeas is offline
Fizzix geek
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South End, Hali
Posts: 1,303
I like Toronto, but I don't love it, largely based on the fact that I have never gotten much of a sense of smaller grained communities within the larger megapolis. There are some exceptions, like the St Lawrence market area, but it is rare.

Contrast that with NYC, which I love, in part because it is a megapolis that has a ton going on, but one in which I can also still wander into Greenwich Village or SoHo or any number of smaller grained areas and have this sense that it remains a community where people live, walk to the hardware store, raise their kids, go to school, etc.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 6:08 PM
Drybrain Drybrain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
I like Toronto, but I don't love it, largely based on the fact that I have never gotten much of a sense of smaller grained communities within the larger megapolis. There are some exceptions, like the St Lawrence market area, but it is rare.

Contrast that with NYC, which I love, in part because it is a megapolis that has a ton going on, but one in which I can also still wander into Greenwich Village or SoHo or any number of smaller grained areas and have this sense that it remains a community where people live, walk to the hardware store, raise their kids, go to school, etc.
TO has that too—all those communities radiate out along the east-west main streets heading away from Yonge Street. At the bottom of the city, close to the lake, they extend pretty much the entire width of the city. Heading north, the walkable urban-village type neighbourhoods are fewer and fewer, hewing closer and closer yo Yonge, until you hit Lawrence Avenue, at which point you have a cluster of shops lining Yonge and beyond that suburbia takes over pretty much entirely.

You have to sort of wander around to become aware of the approximate borders and functions of the neighhbourhoods though, and they sorta just bleed into one another, for the most part. Besides Kensington Market, there are no places where the street grid itself become finer-grained or re-orients It's a dead boring city, layout-wise. (Then again, so is Manhattan above Houston Street.)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2014, 7:22 PM
Keith P.'s Avatar
Keith P. Keith P. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,964
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
The aspect that I do hear about more is complaining about money spent on something, much the same way that Keith does here (no offense intended, Keith). However that complaining seems to die down once the project is finished and they can see the benefit of it in a tangible fashion (or, they get tired of complaining about it and move on to something else ).
I don't complain about money being spent. I complain about public money being wasted. Things like overpriced libraries, unused bike lanes, and appeasement payments.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > Halifax > Halifax Peninsula & Downtown Dartmouth
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:06 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.