Place d'Orleans: potential redevelopment?

[eternallyme]

I know there had been some discussions on here, but with the LRT likely to be extended there in the next decade at most (probably around 2021 or so I would think), has the time come for a complete rethink of the area?

Here is my analysis:

1) It is lacking mall growth potential due to Innes Road eating into the lower/middle-class business and the general demographics and economics of the area precluding any upscale growth. Despite its location, it will be only about 20 minutes from the Rideau Centre by train (not as problematic as St. Laurent, but still a challenge, since across North America middle-class shopping malls are struggling everywhere), so its growth potential is stagnant and it will have a more local focus.

2) St. Joseph Boulevard presents an opportunity nearby for low to medium density redevelopment and as a main street in Orleans.

3) It is perfectly positioned for densification (including both the existing malls and nearby strip mall blocks which could be redeveloped) in the perceived "centre" of Orleans, which now has over 100,000 people.

4) A very large proportion of federal government employees live in Orleans (far more live in the east end than the west end). Moving some departments there would bring the jobs closer to where many of them live (and still keep them relatively close to those who live downtown or elsewhere close to the transit line), and some could work within walking distance of home (depending on any residential developments).

Given those, has the time come to consider demolishing the mall and many of the strip developments nearby, and redeveloping the whole area, in time for LRT? That would need to be done with many different owners though.

[c_speed3108]

Having grown up in the east end, I would say I doubt it. Perhaps some changes but nothing near a full redevelopment unless something major happened liked loss of anchor tenants they couldn't replace.

Why do I think so.

1) Orleans has never been about upscale stores, so lack them is not the issue. That mall never survived on that. The mall is fairly well rented. There are some free space, but overall is pretty well leased.

2) Although some malls have closed in the US, I think most major ones in Canada are doing at least okay. Canada has a stronger argument for indoor malls than the US due to climate.

3) There has been very little interest in office developments in Orleans. There was one proposed years ago across the highway (near the park and ride) and lets just say we are still waiting. Brigil proposed something closer to trim, and as far as I know there is much in the way of tenant prospects. The federal government has shown no interest in going east of Blair.

4) In terms of densification, areas like Orleans has not shown much interest in things like high rise condos. It's just not why people do to the 'burbs. They go because they want houses (at a semi-reasonable price) or they want new houses. In terms of density the best I have seen sell wall are 4 story walk-up condos by Brigil.

5) The place is also still fairly new and overall in fairly good condition.

[silvergate]

There is a lot of encouraging development around there, like the large community YMCA, the arts centre, and some mid-rise residential buildings. I don't know if the government will need to move departments east with the potential to redevelop the more central Tunney's Pasture, and lots of empty looking land near Blair.
An interesting focus would be turning the mall into a mixed use development, essentially turning the corridors into pedestrian "streets", with residential entrances facing in to the mall.
Improving pedestrian access across the 174 here would also make the area more of a town centre.
Finally, midrise development in the surrounding area could make an important impact. Developments could target seniors, young couples, and even students with the metro line right there. Low apartment blocks would improve density without destroying the fabric of the heart of Orleans.

[eternallyme]

With Target leaving Canada and little chance for a new anchor, it might be really time to think about this one...

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

With Target leaving Canada and little chance for a new anchor, it might be really time to think about this one...

So my "no, I don't think so" response was conditioned on "unless something major happens like loss of an anchor"

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

So my "no, I don't think so" response was conditioned on "unless something major happens like loss of an anchor"

I was thinking of this thread when I read the news this morning.

There's always been a department store in that spot. It's changed hands & expanded over the years from Woolco to Walmart to Zellers to Target. Now I don't know if any department store will ever be back there.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I was thinking of this thread when I read the news this morning.

There's always been a department store in that spot. It's changed hands & expanded over the years from Woolco to Walmart to Zellers to Target. Now I don't know if any department store will ever be back there.

The only one I could maybe see off the top of my head would be Giant Tiger, but I suspect the space would need to be subdivided to make that work.

[Requin]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

The only one I could maybe see off the top of my head would be Giant Tiger, but I suspect the space would need to be subdivided to make that work.

Yes, and there are already two GTs in the area: one on St Joseph and one at Trim and Watters.

[lrt's friend]

Everything is moving down to Innes Road, while we build LRT to the old Orleans CBD. Hopefully it will revitalize Place d'Orleans.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Originally Posted by Requin

Yes, and there are already two GTs in the area: one on St Joseph and one at Trim and Watters.

The one on St Josephs is small and cramped. I can see it being replaced.

[eternallyme]

Any plan needs to be coordinated with the LRT plan. One possibility for staging:

1) Acquire any land they do not own (or combine in a new land deal) inside the circle, as well as on the western side of Place d'Orleans Drive and southern side of St. Joseph Boulevard.

2) Construct new retail (Phase 1) on St. Joseph Boulevard and on the western front of the property, which would fill the development and give openings for stores inside the mall now.

3) Construct a new office building (likely about 4 or 5 storeys) for any professional tenants and the RCMP office in the mall. Recommended location is at the Centrum Boulevard entrance on the east side.

4) Begin demolition, which would be before LRT construction begins. The first demolition would be any property in the way of the LRT corridor, as well as along the Champlain Street axis (since that would be opened back up).

5) Construct the south side buildings (south of Centrum) and a major parking garage (likely multiple storeys), which mostly lie in the parking lots.

6) Construct the west side buildings (along the west loop), many of which would be medium-density residential.

7) With the site cleared, develop the area around the LRT station. The street network would need to revolve around it as well. These would be a mixture of high-density residential and office (tallest probably could be about 12 to 15 storeys), with some retail and hospitality opportunities along Champlain and Centrum (St. Joseph is already taken care of). On the east side of the site (nearer the 174), at least 2 or 3 hotels might be desirable as well.

8) Finally, the Park and Ride would be reconstructed as a large parking garage for LRT commuters, and the pedestrian bridge replaced or reinstalled.

[DEWLine]

Demolishing the mall? No.

Intensification of development in the surrounding streets? Probably, and that's already being addressed from several directions, I suspect.

[Dundas]

PDO is actually turning into a really nice mall with all the store renos that's been going on.

I think there's way too much parking for this mall. In the back towards ST-Joseph blvd there is huge amount of parking for nothing. The only time that side of parking was full was when there was a classic car show 10 years ago. They could build a store there the size of the Farmboy. I think a LCBO would be nice, kind of like what TrainYards has.

On the side where the bus station is, more parking could be sacrifices for a 10 stories condos. That would make for a great location to live, NO Frills is a walk away. Half of the cars you see parked near the old Target entrance are just people who park n ride since theres no more room.

This is my thinking, the mall is never really busy but theres stupid amount of parking.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Dundas

...I think a LCBO would be nice, kind of like what TrainYards has...

LCBO wouldn't work here. The current layout makes sense, a B store in Convent Glen, an AA store at Innes & Tenth and a B store at Innes & Trim. The coverage is perfect, one in the middle of those stores would be redundant.

Barrhaven, on the other hand, could use another store or two...

[Dundas]

I often shop at the Farmboy and wouldn't mind being able to pick up some alcohol near by, without driving to Innes rd.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Dundas

I often shop at the Farmboy and wouldn't mind being able to pick up some alcohol near by, without driving to Innes rd.

The LCBO in Convent Glen is half the distance of the closest one on Innes...it's 2.8km from Place...just down the street.

[Dundas]

The one on Convent Glen sucks, they have a poor beer selection. I never go to the beer store there either.

Anyways,all I'm saying is if Im walking from my condo to do groceries at farmboy or no frills it would be nice to have a LCBO close by. If I have to drive then I'll just go out to the Superstore and the LCBO there. I won't go to Covent Glen, only people who live by go there. I never think of that place.

[1overcosc]

One thing that would be nice would be if the mall built a multi-story parking garage and used it for park and ride pay parking. Yorkdale Mall in Toronto did this. It's clear that there's enough demand as that park and ride is very heavily used; in the future, being the only (I think) park and ride on the Confederation Line this will be even more so.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

One thing that would be nice would be if the mall built a multi-story parking garage and used it for park and ride pay parking. Yorkdale Mall in Toronto did this. It's clear that there's enough demand as that park and ride is very heavily used; in the future, being the only (I think) park and ride on the Confederation Line this will be even more so.

Baseline has a small Park and Ride, but I have a feeling it will be decommissioned for development someday (and it requires a permit to avoid abuse from Algonquin students).

Until Stage 3 happens (my guess closer to 2030 since there will be so much pressure from suburban councillors and voters) Place d'Orleans will be the only major P&R though.

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Baseline has a small Park and Ride, but I have a feeling it will be decommissioned for development someday (and it requires a permit to avoid abuse from Algonquin students).

Until Stage 3 happens (my guess closer to 2030 since there will be so much pressure from suburban councillors and voters) Place d'Orleans will be the only major P&R though.

Unfortunately the ultimate plan in the TMP is to not have a park and ride at Baseline Station.