Halifax Stadium Discussion

[GlassCity]

BC Place is right downtown, and there aren't really any problems with it. People learn to take transit. Which you should be doing anyway if you're gonna go to a football game...

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

BC Place is right downtown, and there aren't really any problems with it. People learn to take transit. Which you should be doing anyway if you're gonna go to a football game...

Exactly.

Perhaps a stadium plan should be done in coordination with transit option expansion; like a LRT that comes to the stadium from various suburban zones.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

BC Place is right downtown, and there aren't really any problems with it. People learn to take transit. Which you should be doing anyway if you're gonna go to a football game...

The games also tend to be held in the evenings or on weekends, precisely when the large transportation capacity in downtown Vancouver is underused. It makes perfect sense, and would be similar in Halifax, although the transit there is much worse and needs to be improved.

The idea that traffic problems get fixed by moving things out to the suburbs isn't supported by what we've seen happen in practice for the last 50 years. The suburbs can be fine for sparse areas without much traffic but as soon as you add a large number of people you need to build a ton of infrastructure to support thousands of vehicles. This is why Bayers Lake is awful and why they needed to spend around $15-20M there for a single new route into the area. These areas are neither convenient nor cheap and at the end of the day they only look attractive if you ignore most of their real cost.

[ILoveHalifax]

I used to live across from the north Common and watched several rock concerts come and go. Basically it was all cleared up, people and cars in less than an hour. I used to like the party of people leaving just as much as the concerts.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by counterfactual

Agree. The WORST stadiums/arenas for traffic, are ones located in the suburbs, where EVERYONE has to drive. Driving to an Ottawa Senators game is hell on earth.

Don't you mean watching a Sens game is hell on earth?

(Seriously, it's trying to get away from the stadium after an event that's the real nightmare.)

It's instructive reading Michael Lightstone's piece in this weekend's Herald, regarding the impending demolition of the St. Mary's stadium. Have no fear, however, SMU is on the case of a replacement, which will no doubt include coming hat-in-hand to the taxpayers for massive cash injections.

Regarding the resurrection of Huskies Stadium, “we’re currently underway with a needs-assessment phase to ensure that a future stadium is aligned with Saint Mary’s needs,” [spokesman Travis] Smith said in the email.

“We will take the time to prepare to build a structure that is in keeping with the high standards of infrastructure development on campus, and that aligns with our needs.

“Currently, there’s not a time frame scheduled for building a new stadium, but we look forward to proceeding as soon as funding allows.”

Note the conspicuous lack of any suggestion of cooperation or collaboration with the municipality or the city's three other universities with sports programs. Nope, it's all about our needs.

HRM and the Province should make it absolutely clear now that there will be no public funding for institutional stadiums. The universities should play together or not at all.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

Don't you mean watching a Sens game is hell on earth?

(Seriously, it's trying to get away from the stadium after an event that's the real nightmare.)

It's instructive reading Michael Lightstone's piece in this weekend's Herald, regarding the impending demolition of the St. Mary's stadium. Have no fear, however, SMU is on the case of a replacement, which will no doubt include coming hat-in-hand to the taxpayers for massive cash injections.

Regarding the resurrection of Huskies Stadium, “we’re currently underway with a needs-assessment phase to ensure that a future stadium is aligned with Saint Mary’s needs,” [spokesman Travis] Smith said in the email.

“We will take the time to prepare to build a structure that is in keeping with the high standards of infrastructure development on campus, and that aligns with our needs.

“Currently, there’s not a time frame scheduled for building a new stadium, but we look forward to proceeding as soon as funding allows.”

Note the conspicuous lack of any suggestion of cooperation or collaboration with the municipality or the city's three other universities with sports programs. Nope, it's all about our needs.

HRM and the Province should make it absolutely clear now that there will be no public funding for institutional stadiums. The universities should play together or not at all.

Most university infrastructure is raised through fundraising and donations and I am sure that the funding for the small stadium that Saint Mary's is considering will be raised in the usual way - through individuals who want to give funds.

Can you give examples of Saint Mary's and Dalhousie University buildings that have been built with taxpayers money? Is there some reason why Saint Mary's should not be allowed to rebuild their stadium through their own initiative and fund-raising?

Does it make you feel clever ns_kid when you try to mislead people with such a straw man argument?

People probably have a reason for being concerned about the construction of an extravagant municipal stadium. But a small university stadium that will be built through donations shouldn't be a concern to anyone.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Can you give examples of Saint Mary's and Dalhousie University buildings that have been built with taxpayers money?

How many examples would you like? How's this for starters?

SMU: $1.5 million for new arena
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20040520007

SMU: $27,000, arena renovations
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20080729004

SMU: $22.33 million, McNally Building renovation
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20090430001

Dal: $10 million, Collaborative Health Education Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20130905001

Dal: $27 million, Life Sciences Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20130905001

Dal: $7.2 million, Computer Science Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=19991018002

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

How many examples would you like? How's this for starters?

SMU: $1.5 million for new arena
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20040520007

SMU: $27,000, arena renovations
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20080729004

SMU: $22.33 million, McNally Building renovation
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20090430001

Dal: $10 million, Collaborative Health Education Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20130905001

Dal: $27 million, Life Sciences Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20130905001

Dal: $7.2 million, Computer Science Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=19991018002

I don't see any problem with governments funding *educational* buildings.

In fact, comparatively, our provincial government's funding as a percentage of university operating expenses is the second lowest among all the provinces in Canada, at 51.2% (as of 2011).

We're lower than NL (78.3%), PEI (59%), NB (56.7%), QC (67.8%), MB (64.5%), SK (64.9%), AB (60.3%), BC (56.3%).

The only province lower, is Ontario - 46.7%.

data: http://www.caut.ca/docs/default-sour...F.pdf?sfvrsn=2 (Figure 1.5, p 3).

That said, on sports facilities, yes, I think it's really dumb for SMU to just be striking out on its own, not consulting with community or city.

Though, who knows what will ever happen with a stadium in Halifax. And university athletics do have needs, so they cannot wait around for politicians forever.

EDIT: Also, given that the (horrific on post-secondary education) NDP Government cut university funding annually by 3%, year over year, then by 2013, you can be sure that those numbers are even worse for Nova Scotia today.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

How many examples would you like? How's this for starters?

SMU: $1.5 million for new arena
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20040520007

SMU: $27,000, arena renovations
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20080729004

SMU: $22.33 million, McNally Building renovation
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20090430001

Dal: $10 million, Collaborative Health Education Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20130905001

Dal: $27 million, Life Sciences Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=20130905001

Dal: $7.2 million, Computer Science Building
http://novascotia.ca/news/release/?id=19991018002

My apologies. Thanks for the research.

On the other hand, there is no question that a large percentage of the funding for university infrastructure comes from private sources; a much higher percentage than for municipally funded buildings such as the new Central Library. For example, Dalhousie raised $280 million through their Bold Ambitions fund raising drive - http://boldambitions.dal.ca/.

[cjones2451]

Does this finally get Halifax a stadium???? Long way off though

[xanaxanax]

Originally Posted by cjones2451

Does this finally get Halifax a stadium???? Long way off though

No the odds are to slim that it has any chance of coming here

[q12]

During the Superbowl, CTV is airing promos about news stories they will be running this week dealing with Halifax's potential of getting a new stadium and a CFL team.

I wonder if there is new information on this front?

And also if Huskies Stadium will essentially be destroyed, the case for a stadium will be stronger, as the naysayers can't point to any existing outdoor sports stadium infrastructure, in a multicultural city of 420,000 people.

We also put 10,311 bums in the seats of the Metro Centre at the Halifax Mooseheads last regular season home game.

[scooby074]

Originally Posted by q12

During the Superbowl, CTV is airing promos about news stories they will be running this week dealing with Halifax's potential of getting a new stadium and a CFL team.

I wonder if there is new information on this front?

And also if Huskies Stadium will essentially be destroyed, the case for a stadium will be stronger, as the naysayers can't point to any existing outdoor sports stadium infrastructure, in a multicultural city of 420,000 people.

We also put 10,311 bums in the seats of the Metro Centre at the Halifax Mooseheads last regular season home game.

Saw that too.

Wonder whats up? They said its basically a "sure thing" the CFL will come if a stadium is built..

[Nilan8888]

(Seriously, it's trying to get away from the stadium after an event that's the real nightmare.)

I know this was posted some time ago, but I want to compare this to the situation in Toronto.

As I see it, Toronto has the worst traffic system in North America. It's slated to have even worse transit than Los Angeles, which isn't able to have subways or major density (therefore, better even though massively handicapped by the San Andreas). It's a terrible way to manage the fourth largest city in North America, and there's not much of an excuse for what's happened.

HOWEVER: I would argue this has nothing to do with the Skydome (sorry, Roger's Center... whatever). Leaving events at the Skydome or the Air Canada Center in my experience -- whether by transit or car -- has been relatively hassle-free. Not ENTIRELY hassle-free, of course, but compared to commuting into the city from outlying areas... which is where the transit system has really failed... it's nothing. It's probably far easier to get out of there than Ottawa's Stadium.

In Toronto they got the core downtown essentially right, and it was the correct decision to place their major arenas in the core and next to major transit hubs. If nothing else Halifax should definitely try to copy that success.

...it's everything outside the core T.O screwed up.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Nilan8888

I know this was posted some time ago, but I want to compare this to the situation in Toronto.
...

Leaving events at the Skydome or the Air Canada Center in my experience -- whether by transit or car -- has been relatively hassle-free. Not ENTIRELY hassle-free, of course, but compared to commuting into the city from outlying areas... which is where the transit system has really failed... it's nothing. It's probably far easier to get out of there than Ottawa's Stadium.

Ha. Everything you say is true.

But a key difference is that Toronto located the SkyDome on disused industrial land. It was downtown, but when the stadium was built, it was an under-used, rarely visited part of downtown not adjacent to anything else at all, south of the Gardiner. It'd maybe be similar to building a stadium down on Marginal Road or something, but really, Halifax doesn't have an equivalently empty downtown space.

Plus, the SkyDome works becayuse there is effective regional transit in and out, in the form of the GO. Funnelling thousands of driers into Halifax's much -smaller downtown for games would be an enormous logistical challenge.

I think that whole industrial wasteland area above Almon or Young is much better suited--still central, but without sacrificing a huge amount of downtown land to a mono-purpose. And it could be a spur to development up there, which isn't needed downtown.

Really, I think the idea of a downtown stadium is nice, but in reality it would be use up too much developable land, create nightmare traffic, and possibly overwhelm the city's relatively small downtown. A near-downtown stadium, still located in a suitable peninsula area, would be preferable in almost every way. Halifax is small enough that downtown or North End is immaterial--the two are so close they're within walking distance.

[c-way-dude]

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/mayor-of-...year-1.1668879

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I think that whole industrial wasteland area above Almon or Young is much better suited--still central, but without sacrificing a huge amount of downtown land to a mono-purpose.

I tend to agree. In a lot of cases I think the people who mention Cogswell, etc. simply haven't looked at the amount of space available and the hypothetical footprint of a stadium.

The North End could be good. Shannon Park is probably more likely. I think it would be OK, as long as there's a good redevelopment of the whole area and some investment in transit, probably including a ferry terminal. I actually have a little more faith in this being pulled off now than I would have a few years ago, and the harbour setting is interesting and fairly unique.

[xanaxanax]

Originally Posted by someone123

I tend to agree. In a lot of cases I think the people who mention Cogswell, etc. simply haven't looked at the amount of space available and the hypothetical footprint of a stadium.

The North End could be good. Shannon Park is probably more likely. I think it would be OK, as long as there's a good redevelopment of the whole area and some investment in transit, probably including a ferry terminal. I actually have a little more faith in this being pulled off now than I would have a few years ago, and the harbour setting is kind of interesting and fairly unique.

This city needs to get a little bit more creative

Shannon Park isn't very accessible to the public, no one can walk to it, bike to it, the bus route isn't very convenient, taking a taxi from anywhere in the city would cost a lot and there are no establishments to support a crowd of people coming and going. The only supportive argument for it is that the land is vacant and its relatively accessible by car. If its going to be a multi purpose stadium and used to host concerts ect... Young people aren't going to want to go out to Shannon Park no mater wart band is playing so right there you have one alternative use for the venue thrown out the door


Why not the Dartmouth Commons, I've heard a lot of complaints that the Dartmouth Commons isn't a safe place to be and it needs a public fixture to draw people to it to make it safe much like the Oval made the Halifax commons a safe place, though I've never felt unsafe on the Halifax commons at any point walking along before the Oval.

Personally I think the Holy Cross Cemetery is the best location for one. Its a large enough area for a stadium and a parking parking facility . Its the best spot to distribute traffic and bring people into town at the same time with place to go before and after events. Its not a residential area where the noise would disturbed people. Its one of the easy spots in the city to reach by any means of transportation

Or that huge area in Dartmouth Cove that is essentially just a large parking lot waiting to be redeveloped into something

I've heard one person on here say Halifax commons but that would take up 1/3rd of the space left on it and no one in the city is going to go for that.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by xanaxanax

Shannon Park isn't very accessible to the public, no one can walk to it, bike to it, the bus route isn't very convenient, taking a taxi from anywhere in the city would cost a lot and there are no establishments to support a crowd of people coming and going. The only supportive argument for it is that the land is vacant and its relatively accessible by car. If its going to be a multi purpose stadium and used to host concerts ect... Young people aren't going to want to go out to Shannon Park no mater wart band is playing so right there you have one alternative use for the venue thrown out the door.

Agreed.

I'm not a fan of Shannon Park either. When the stadium chatter was plentiful in Halifax a while ago, Shannon Park seemed like the best compromise compared to Dartmouth Crossing.
Dartmouth Crossing must be opposed. We don't want to encourage more sprawled, debt-creating developments.

Your Dartmouth Commons or Dartmouth Cove ideas may be worth exploring -- but for the time being, I'm still with most of the people on this forum:
The underused industrial lands on the northern portion of the peninsula is the best option for everyone. Suburbanites will be happy because the stadium is easily accessed by highways and bridges. Urbanites will be able to walk and take short routes via public transit.

A big part of me would be thrilled if Mayor Mike Savage were to announce a possible location for a stadium in the downtown -- but our downtown doesn't have Toronto's Gardiner and Union Station.
(I'm glad, btw, that downtown Halifax doesn't have a highway running through it.)

I would be very disappointed if Shannon Park was still seriously being considered. I'm praying for better news.

[Nilan8888]

Shannon Park isn't very accessible to the public, no one can walk to it, bike to it, the bus route isn't very convenient, taking a taxi from anywhere in the city would cost a lot and there are no establishments to support a crowd of people coming and going. The only supportive argument for it is that the land is vacant and its relatively accessible by car. If its going to be a multi purpose stadium and used to host concerts ect... Young people aren't going to want to go out to Shannon Park no mater wart band is playing so right there you have one alternative use for the venue thrown out the door

All this is thinking of Shannon Park as it currently is. As Someone123 stated, a fair amount of re-development would have to take place, and the first thing on the docket would be infrastructure to make that area easier to get to.

I think there's more pros here than you state. The main reason it's inconvenient isn't that it's so far away, it's just that Halifax isn't yet of the size that Shannon Park is particularly central. But, think ahead: If Halifax became twice its size, Shannon Park isn't going to be a terribly far distance away from the current center of downtown. It's certainly a heck of a lot closer than Ottawa's Stadium.

Furthermore, the stadium itself would become a draw for people, and a cause to re-develop the area. There'd be a lot of landscaping and new roadways to properly connect coming off the bridge to the stadium. Thinking ahead, the Dartmouth sides of BOTH bridges are likely destined to become transportation hubs if a public transit system is ever built, be it subway or the far more likely LRT. Currently it's only really the MacDonald serving as a hub, but in the long term the Mackay will be one as well. Placing the Stadium beneath the Mackay might actually look nicer, and even be more sensible in the long term than even putting it in the North End.

Shannon Park, I think, is only far from Downtown Halifax in Halifax terms. Thinking of the distance in Calgary or even Ottawa terms and it, I think, doesn't seem nearly as far.


If you were to take the most optimal route, from Shannon Park to Downtown Halifax is about 5.8 k. In Toronto terms I think it's about the distance of Front St. to St. Clair, given that it's almost entirely a straight line (I think the distance as the crow flies in Halifax would be a fair bit shorter than 5.8 k).