The Awful Canadian Stroad Thread

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm sure Holland has our equivalent of power centre development, though. I'd be interested in seeing how they handle that.

They definitely do. The difference is that they don't spill into the street. You'll have usually one, sometimes two vehicle entrances, always signalized. You don't find willy-nilly curb cuts. The sidewalk and bicycle infrastructure is also set back from the road. It's not the most interesting environment to walk or bike in, but mundane is much better than excitingly life-endangering.



In other places, the multiway boulevard is still employed, such as in business parks along major through-routes. It's a lot safer and more convenient for trucks and deliveries as they don't have to try to find breaks in the unending stroad traffic to make a turn in or out. From a human perspective, again, they're not super exciting, but the 30 km/h side streets feel comfortably safe.

[someone123]

Dutch cities seem to have more transportation infrastructure per capita than Canadian cities. They pretty much always have better transit and hugely better inter-city public transport, while the highway networks are either a bit smaller or on par.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by someone123

Dutch cities seem to have more transportation infrastructure per capita than Canadian cities. They pretty much always have better transit and hugely better inter-city public transport, while the highway networks are either a bit smaller or on par.

They invest more. And since the Vision Zero movements took off in Europe, many European cities have invested in segregated pedestrian and biking infrastructure, and various traffic calming. The Dutch, though, went through some major policy changes that now force any major roadworks to change an old stroad to either a street or a road, if it's being rebuilt.

Our cities make big pronouncements on Vision Zero. But they don't put any dollars behind it. Let alone committing to any plans that might slow down traffic.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They invest more. And since the Vision Zero movements took off in Europe, many European cities have invested in segregated pedestrian and biking infrastructure, and various traffic calming. The Dutch, though, went through some major policy changes that now force any major roadworks to change an old stroad to either a street or a road, if it's being rebuilt.

Our cities make big pronouncements on Vision Zero. But they don't put any dollars behind it. Let alone committing to any plans that might slow down traffic.

In Calgary at least (and it seems to be similar elsewhere), it's not even that money isn't being spent, but that when roads are being rebuilt, stroads are the objective. "Mixed use urban boulevard" means jamming everything into the ROW and ending up with everything being shit. Often it seems like it would have been better to do nothing at all than waste money on something that won't be looked at again for another 50 years.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by milomilo

In Calgary at least (and it seems to be similar elsewhere), it's not even that money isn't being spent, but that when roads are being rebuilt, stroads are the objective. "Mixed use urban boulevard" means jamming everything into the ROW and ending up with everything being shit. Often it seems like it would have been better to do nothing at all than waste money on something that won't be looked at again for another 50 years.

In Vancouver it feels like there's a moratorium on road construction or a general push to get rid of roadways and make more space for bikes and so on. This is all admirable except the transit system here is not actually that good (I mean objectively in terms of quickly getting people from A to B when they want, not "good" meaning "better than most North American cities") and a large portion of the metro is built for cars since the city just happened to grow a lot when that style of development was most common.

There is also the housing affordability crisis so a lot of people cannot afford to live in a convenient area. I know a lot of people who can't afford a car and can't afford to live downtown or next to a SkyTrain station. In the US, a person like this might own a crappy car and drive 20 minutes to work. In the Netherlands, they might bike for 10 minutes. Here, might have some 60 minute commute involving a neighbourhood bus and transfers or long walks. In the US they'd live in a cheap apartment or house in a somewhat crime-infested area, in the Netherlands they'd have nice public housing, and here they live in a suburban basement suite with roommates and an amateur landlord who's debating when to kick them out.

[Jaws]

Gaetz Avenue in Red Deer is the best bad example of a stroud. It bisects the length of the city running N/S and the portions of it not downtown include service roads on either side of the main road. I’m sure it’s 75 m wide at some points.

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2901...7i13312!8i6656

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by someone123

In Vancouver it feels like there's a moratorium on road construction or a general push to get rid of roadways and make more space for bikes and so on. This is all admirable except the transit system here is not actually that good (I mean objectively in terms of quickly getting people from A to B when they want, not "good" meaning "better than some most North American cities") and a large portion of the metro is built for cars since the city just happened to grow a lot when that style of development was most common.

There is also the housing affordability crisis so a lot of people cannot afford to live in a convenient area. I know a lot of people who can't afford a car and can't afford to live downtown or next to a SkyTrain station. In the US, a person like this might own a crappy car and drive 20 minutes to work. In the Netherlands, they might bike for 10 minutes. Here, might have some 60 minute commute involving a neighbourhood bus and transfers or long walks. In the US they'd live in a cheap apartment or house in a somewhat crime-infested area, in the Netherlands they'd have nice public housing, and here they live in a suburban basement suite with roommates and an amateur landlord who's debating when to kick them out.

Vancouver is generally viewed favourably by Calgarian urbanists, but I don't find roads like Broadway to be a great model. As you say, while the transit it very good where it exists and by North American standards, it isn't good enough to make up for having extremely few higher order roadways. As much as it goes against well intended urbanist sensibilities, restricting roadways by itself isn't enough, transit and active modes need to be much better to make up for it, otherwise you'll still have congested, unpleasant roads.

My first experience of Vancouver was taking the bus from YVR to Whistler. I had imagined it would be like Toronto, which has a proper freeway network and was pretty surprised to see the bus forced to travel down little residential streets to make its way through the city.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Our cities make big pronouncements on Vision Zero. But they don't put any dollars behind it. Let alone committing to any plans that might slow down traffic.

I don't think that's a fair criticism - after all, we have these lawn signs now!

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Psychedelic Sailor

Carling Ave in Ottawa, complete with fence in the centre to stop pedestrians
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.37686...7i16384!8i8192

March Road in Kanata: Probably worst in Ottawa; 80km/h with bike gutters lol. Awful.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.33516...7i16384!8i8192

Garrison Road in Fort Erie, Fort Erie killed it's old downtown and went all in on Garrison road and it's terrible.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@42.90558...7i16384!8i8192

Urban planning in this country is just awful

that Fort Erie shot is bleak, and it gets worse when one turns 180 degrees: A Shopper's Dog Fart!

[itom 987]

Honestly guys, I don't think we have a stroad problem. Stroad isn't even a word! lol

Just be glad we don't have it as bad as the roads all over cities in Russia.

[ue]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Vancouver is generally viewed favourably by Calgarian urbanists, but I don't find roads like Broadway to be a great model. As you say, while the transit it very good where it exists and by North American standards, it isn't good enough to make up for having extremely few higher order roadways. As much as it goes against well intended urbanist sensibilities, restricting roadways by itself isn't enough, transit and active modes need to be much better to make up for it, otherwise you'll still have congested, unpleasant roads.

My first experience of Vancouver was taking the bus from YVR to Whistler. I had imagined it would be like Toronto, which has a proper freeway network and was pretty surprised to see the bus forced to travel down little residential streets to make its way through the city.

This is so key and something Canadian city councils and planning departments are loathe to acknowledge. Practically every major Canadian city has, pound for pound, greater demand for transit than some American cities of comparable size, but there isn't always more track to deal with that demand. Toronto and to a lesser extent Vancouver and Montreal feel like prime examples of this. Or even compared to Europe, where there may be comparable demand, but way less rapid transit. If Toronto were in Germany or the Netherlands, it would probably have at least twice the amount of subway/light rail.

You see this play out differently between Canadian cities. In Vancouver, as you mention, there's less investment in roads and freeways, but there isn't greater investment in transit to make up the difference. In Winnipeg, it's a bit of the opposite. The city is clearly geared towards driving, but forces everyone onto stroad hellscapes instead of just building a damn freeway (as much as I don't generally like urban freeways). It feels very austere and like Canada is a lot more adverse to transportation infrastructure improvements. I think that's the key. You see it everywhere across Canada. Transit, cycling, walkability, and driving infrastructure are often lagging behind demand by decades.

Part of me wonders if it's a shared Commonwealth thing. If you look at the UK and to a lesser extent Australia, you notice similar things. The transportation infrastructure very often feels underbuilt compared with Continental Europe.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by ue

... In Vancouver, as you mention, there's less investment in roads and freeways, but there isn't greater investment in transit to make up the difference. ...

Except at least $2.8 billion is being invested in the Broadway subway alone. How much do we actually need?

[ue]

Originally Posted by Architype

Except at least $2.8 billion is being invested in the Broadway subway alone. How much do we actually need?

Well, it's a start, but it still doesn't actually get all the way to UBC. Vancouver is fairly polycentric, while the SkyTrain is mostly downtown-focused. I also think an LRT line from Coal Harbour down Hastings to Burnaby and then down Willingdon to Metrotown is a no-brainer. Connects Downtown Vancouver, East Van, Brentwood, BCIT, and Metrotown together. Same with something down the Arbutus Greenway. Maybe a BRT down 41st Ave between Joyce-Collingwood and Dunbar. And a Surrey LRT from Guildford to Surrey Centre then down King George Blvd. Extension of the Canada Line down to Steveston. Perhaps streetcar service for the West End, down Main St, and Commercial Drive. Perhaps not all of these together should've been done by now, but definitely some of them aught to have to make transit better and more convenient in a region that lacks proper roads to get around in many instances.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by itom 987

Honestly guys, I don't think we have a stroad problem. Stroad isn't even a word! lol

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it's not a thing.

Originally Posted by itom 987

Just be glad we don't have it as bad as the roads all over cities in Russia.

Just what we should aspire to: not as bad as Russia.

To be fair, our passenger rail network is worse than Uzbekistan, so maybe you're in the ballpark for the infrastructure goals we should set.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Architype

Except at least $2.8 billion is being invested in the Broadway subway alone. How much do we actually need?

The dollar cost doesn't equal extensive rail. No question, Vancouver has one of, if not the best mass transit systems in Canada and the US. Skytrain is excellent, but it only goes where it goes and there are still many areas of the city unserved by it. The buses too are good in a NA context, but they are still just buses on the same crappy roads that cars are on.

Calgary spends a lot on rapid transit too - if we ever end up building the Green Line that's $5B+ we're going to spend. But it still wouldn't be a city I'd class as having excellent public transit, just good in comparison to the continent.

[Franco401]

A typical stroad in NB looks something like this:



They aren't that wide, but there'll likely be sidewalks directly abbuting the road with no grass, so the sidewalks are terrible. The Fredericton ones often include a sidewalk on only one side of the road, that's fun. The bike lanes and centre left turn lane are the happy product of a road system first constructed by people who had no idea how wide lanes should be, and would built a 2-lane road with 16-foot-wide lanes. Crosswalks are few and far between, so you better be ready to run across (this is not too hard, since the traffic only necessitates two lanes. There are long gaps with no real developments, but some things will look deceptively urban despite 95% of users being motorists.

Don't get me wrong, there are some truly great urban corridors in this province, but this pattern is all too common and they don't even have the advantage of being wide enough for a road diet later.

[itom 987]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it's not a thing.



Just what we should aspire to: not as bad as Russia.

To be fair, our passenger rail network is worse than Uzbekistan, so maybe you're in the ballpark for the infrastructure goals we should set.

Oh I get it! But I also get that it isn't a big problem, some people on this forum tend to blow things waaaay out of portion.

[ssiguy]

Vancouver's lack of freeways also creates huge air and noise pollution problems. Knight Street which is the only major North/South trucking route in the city is nothing but a regular 4 lane street with tons of lights and several right on hills. This has resulted in this little 4 lane street having higher pollution levels than areas up against the 16 lane 401 in Toronto.

In Vancouver, due to the lack of freeways or even semi fast routes, the trucks belch their way thru regular streets dodging lights, buses, pedestrians, and cyclists. Thankfully there is not a single transport route on the entire Westside of the City so the City can gleefully ignore the problem.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by itom 987

Oh I get it! But I also get that it isn't a big problem, some people on this forum tend to blow things waaaay out of portion.

Canada is one of only seven OECD countries that are seeing pedestrian deaths go up. At a time when more people were working from home and a lot of amenities were closed and there was less traffic congestion, auto deaths reached historic highs. So basically, the only reason we don't kill more people on our roads in other years is that we can't get fast enough to do so.

So yes, it's a big deal and not being "blown out of proportion". Though I will concede that a lot of people don't really care. And that attitude is why things won't really change in Canada.

Beyond just straight up killing people, our built form is massively responsible for obesity (with a direct correlation between suburbanization and our growing waistlines), and the underlying cause of the substantial fiscal deterioration of our lower orders of governments (thanks to the costs of the growth ponzi scheme). Heck, as we come up to the practical limits of sprawl in our larger metros (because of geography or practical commute times), we're starting to see how sprawl is actually driving up housing prices thanks to inefficient land use. It's easy to blow it all off as "no big deal" and inconsequential. But our urban design is a massive detractor from our health and quality of life these days. And we can't even begin the discussion about how to make it better, if the majority of Canadians can't even accept that there is a problem to be fixed.

You are, of course, closer to the viewpoint of the average Canuck. I will concede that. And there are times I do wonder about living abroad when retired because of this prevailing ignorance. Life is too short to live in shitty car dependent places. I was recently told in the Ottawa forum that I should advocate for better. But the reality is that Canadians are so ignorant of good design that I'm sure my great grandkids will be not have what is taken for normal in developed countries today. Incidentally, in a recent podcast interview on Strong Towns, Jason Slaughter of the YouTube channel Not Just Bikes, says that this is why his wife and him chose to leave Canada. After two years in Toronto, including one with his wife on the board of Cycle Toronto, they realized nothing would change. He started making his videos initially to try and explain to friends and family how bad things actually were in Canada. I'm coming around to that viewpoint.

[MolsonExport]

by and large, our cities are really ugly and outside of a very small part of the biggest cities, I believe things are getting worse. Stroads encourage the metastatication of the worst elements of bleak, car-culture suburbia in our cities. They are designed to funnel traffic and support commerce, yet do a substandard job of both.