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View Poll Results: Is Atlanta the most important city in the South?
Yes 59 57.84%
No 43 42.16%
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  #81  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:08 PM
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i don’t know about houston but the other two are logical inflection/control points for transportation/railroads between regions. it’s not as obvious as a city sitting at a major confluence or great harbor but there were defensible reasons for it.



missouri, kansas, and texas railway (KATY)

the midwest, especially kansas city and st. louis really built out infrastructure plugging texas into the greater u.s. transportation grid with all of those cattle being WALKED into missouri and kansas.
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  #82  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
i don’t know about houston but the other two are logical inflection/control points for transportation/railroads between regions. it’s not as obvious as a city sitting at a major confluence or great harbor but there were defensible reasons for it.



missouri, kansas, and texas railway (KATY)

the midwest, especially kansas city and st. louis really built out infrastructure plugging texas into the greater u.s. transportation grid with all of those cattle being WALKED into missouri and kansas.
Yeah, there's always some type of reason(s) why settlements occurred and grew. But like I said initially, Atlanta, Dallas, or Houston could likely have been settled 100 miles give or take in any direction (don't anyone get too technical on me here... it's just a generalization), and it would not really make much of a difference in how the city looks or functions.

I'm talking city natural setting/attributes, not manmade features like railroads. You can pretty much locate a city anywhere due to railroads.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:22 PM
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Americans are used with their cities by massive lakes, wide rivers or big harbours and find odd a city like Dallas or Atlanta, without some dramatic geographic features.

In Brazil, that's the exception. Brazilian coast lacks of big natural harbors like the American. The country has big cities by the ocean, but only Rio de Janeiro and Salvador boost meaningful natural harbours. Brazilian busiest port, Santos, is only a very narrow and short channel ending on open ocean. A tiny fraction of NY's East River.

Out of the coast and outside Amazon basin (Belém and Manaus), big cities avoid large rivers and there aren't (natural) big lakes in Brazil. So we have São Paulo, Belo Horizonte, Curitiba, Brasília and tens and tens big-midsized cities without any geographic mark.
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  #84  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:25 PM
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^ That's why everyone loves Rio.
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  #85  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Yeah, there's always some type of reason(s) why settlements occurred and grew. But like I said initially, Atlanta, Dallas, or Houston could likely have been settled 100 miles give or take in any direction (don't anyone get too technical on me here... it's just a generalization), and it would not really make much of a difference in how the city looks or functions.

I'm talking city natural setting/attributes, not manmade features like railroads. You can pretty much locate a city anywhere due to railroads.
yeah i mean the reasons were more general instead of specific. the railroads were also routed for geographical reasons even though it may appear that (for instance) the terrain of the Katy railroad was built onto a flat plain (it wasnt entirely without obstacle).

But I take your overall point. I don't think Dallas is even specifically at a fall line (unlike Austin, etc) or anything else besides a muddy tributary, but someone might be able to elaborate.

I think in this case, the great southern plains metropolis could have risen out of any number of whistle-stops or dusty overland junctions based on the real lack of utility of the trinity river.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
It's basically a race of which grows faster: Atlanta UA population or Atlanta UA footprint.

Even though Atlanta represents only a tiny fraction of its MSA population, I guess this impressive growth the city presented in this decade will be a game changer: I bet Atlanta UA will be slightly denser in 2020 compared to 2010.
Probably. The city of Atlanta's growth trajectory actually looks more like a northern industrial city than one in the Sun Belt. Between 1960 and 2010, NYC had a higher average rate of population growth than Atlanta. But this past decade, the city of Atlanta's growth looks much more Sun Belt like.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:31 PM
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Dallas is just where it was easiest to cross a floodplain.

It's like when you're on a river trip and have been paddling for the day and are tired and it's getting late. Usually the campsite you choose isn't all that great, but it'll do for the night... and you vow with your buddies to make sure you give yourselves more time to find a better campsite tomorrow. The first campsite is Dallas.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I don't know about "dominant", but it was the slighly larger port city to Houston's railroad hub up until the turn of the century. But Houston was already surpassing Galveston in size by the time the hurricane hit. But it was more of a symbiotic relationship, and once massive dredging of the bayous between the two cities began in the 1870s to create the ship channel, Houston was on its way to become the alpha.
Houston and Galveston would probably have ended up how Dallas-Fort Worth are today. Dallas is the more dominant of the two but FW is still pretty significant. Galveston could have grown to 10x its size (~500k) had it not been for the hurricane and Houston could have been slightly smaller. The hurricane shifted the population/ economic balance further inland.
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  #89  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 6:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Houston and Galveston would probably have ended up how Dallas-Fort Worth are today. Dallas is the more dominant of the two but FW is still pretty significant. Galveston could have grown to 10x its size (~500k) had it not been for the hurricane and Houston could have been slightly smaller. The hurricane shifted the population/ economic balance further inland.
I think the dredging of the bayous/construction of the ship channel had as much to do with Houston's surpassing Galveston, or that it at least worked in concert with the hurricane disaster, solidifying Houston as the more viable location for a large city.

I did a lot of work in the area back in the late 90s/early 00s and learned what an interesting place Galveston was back in the day... kind of a New Orleans of the Texas Coast, with its diverse population, culture, and wealth.
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  #90  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 8:46 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
I did a lot of work in the area back in the late 90s/early 00s and learned what an interesting place Galveston was back in the day... kind of a New Orleans of the Texas Coast, with its diverse population, culture, and wealth.
That's kind of (poorly) what I was angling at in my comments. I kinda regret not visiting when I was in Houston in 2015 but I didn't have enough time and was also worn out from driving after trying to navigate Houston's freeways and all the damn access roads...
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  #91  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
That's kind of (poorly) what I was angling at in my comments. I kinda regret not visiting when I was in Houston in 2015 but I didn't have enough time and was also worn out from driving after trying to navigate Houston's freeways and all the damn access roads...
Youb should've have gone! I liked Galveston a lot. Getting to spend a couple of months there for work is a time I'm thankful for.
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  #92  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2021, 9:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
I think the city of Atlanta has probably densified but the metro as a whole has probably not changed very much. Atlanta embodies all that is wrong with American sprawl.
Atlanta city is densifying and a lot of projects/going up (infill).

A lot of the suburbs OTP (Outside of I-285) are cul-de-sac neighborhoods but there are a lot of town centers that are nice.

Norcross: https://goo.gl/maps/aD3QjWjyW9XLcBtm8
Duluth: https://goo.gl/maps/xjixjM1FrFn4NGfr6
Avalon: https://goo.gl/maps/6oeTQWJZgkjrXxWf7
Alpharetta: https://goo.gl/maps/5myBDb1VK95N8Syh7
Suwanee: https://goo.gl/maps/6HfEYcNhSmVrWfgA8
Marietta: https://goo.gl/maps/fUmCbokGwCiL1FjWA
Sugar Hill: https://goo.gl/maps/9TqxqPiKXLL1YBaSA
Lawrenceville: https://goo.gl/maps/3fKETt7qiR317DAo8
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  #93  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Houston and Galveston would probably have ended up how Dallas-Fort Worth are today. Dallas is the more dominant of the two but FW is still pretty significant. Galveston could have grown to 10x its size (~500k) had it not been for the hurricane and Houston could have been slightly smaller. The hurricane shifted the population/ economic balance further inland.
Hurricanes in general do that, not just the big one. Galveston's geology also limits it's viability as a settlement.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2021, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Labtec View Post
Atlanta city is densifying and a lot of projects/going up (infill).

A lot of the suburbs OTP (Outside of I-285) are cul-de-sac neighborhoods but there are a lot of town centers that are nice.

Norcross: https://goo.gl/maps/aD3QjWjyW9XLcBtm8
Duluth: https://goo.gl/maps/xjixjM1FrFn4NGfr6
Avalon: https://goo.gl/maps/6oeTQWJZgkjrXxWf7
Alpharetta: https://goo.gl/maps/5myBDb1VK95N8Syh7
Suwanee: https://goo.gl/maps/6HfEYcNhSmVrWfgA8
Marietta: https://goo.gl/maps/fUmCbokGwCiL1FjWA
Sugar Hill: https://goo.gl/maps/9TqxqPiKXLL1YBaSA
Lawrenceville: https://goo.gl/maps/3fKETt7qiR317DAo8
Half of those are faux town centers.
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  #95  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2021, 12:20 AM
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I agree.

The tree canopy of Atlanta is its most distinguishing geographic feature along with its rolling hills and creeks.

I also agree about the climate. Atlanta's summers get no hotter than many places east of Mississippi not to mention Texas which is hotter. Often, heat waves in the Midwest, NE, and Mid-Atlantic are more extreme. South of Atlanta toward the Gulf and the Atlantic, the summers are noticeably longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
Of the three, in my opinion Atlantas climate, being on a plateau is notable in how moderated it actually is in comparison to other major cities in the south. The “Hotlanta” nickname is silly...the temperature almost always is lower in Atlanta than wherever i’m driving from in summer, especially from Nashville/St. Louis/Memphis/New Orleans. The tree canopy is also stunning in my opinion.

They are somewhat secondary attributes but I think they do amount to something in distinguishing Atlanta from other sunbelt cities.
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  #96  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2021, 12:30 AM
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Why is Memphis not as significant?

Any thoughts on why Memphis has not grown rapidly as a metro (and city) to other metros like DFW and Atlanta, and even Nashville? I think it is halfway between those two metros and is a good transportation hub. I would think it could have capitalized on its location to be the major Southeast hub. Maybe it was not racially progressive enough compared with Atlanta, or in a major state, like TX. Or maybe because its state has other major cities, like Nashville, which has pulled away from Memphis is size and stature? Or maybe because northern cities like Chicago and St Louis were more draws for the people that would consider moving there - I believe a lot of African Americans from Mississippi ended up in Chicago, so they must of went through Memphis on their way to settling in Chicago.

Last edited by DCReid; Jan 8, 2021 at 12:31 AM. Reason: Minor edit
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  #97  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2021, 12:54 AM
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When you have to bring up “tree canopy”, you know your city’s setting ain’t nothing to write home about.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2021, 1:12 AM
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  #99  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2021, 1:21 AM
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An extensive tree canopy is a great attribute for a city to have, but unless one is viewing aerial photos or in a plane, it will go unnoticed on the large scale. It’s impossible to perceive extensive, city-wide tree canopy when at one point on the ground.

On the contrary, it is more than evident to perceive a city’s setting on a vast harbor, on a lakeshore, at a river confluence, with a mountainous backdrop, in a river valley, on a plain leading to the ocean, etc.
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  #100  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2021, 3:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Any thoughts on why Memphis has not grown rapidly as a metro (and city) to other metros like DFW and Atlanta, and even Nashville? I think it is halfway between those two metros and is a good transportation hub. I would think it could have capitalized on its location to be the major Southeast hub. Maybe it was not racially progressive enough compared with Atlanta, or in a major state, like TX. Or maybe because its state has other major cities, like Nashville, which has pulled away from Memphis is size and stature? Or maybe because northern cities like Chicago and St Louis were more draws for the people that would consider moving there - I believe a lot of African Americans from Mississippi ended up in Chicago, so they must of went through Memphis on their way to settling in Chicago.
Memphis is not a state capital which would otherwise provide a solid base of recession-proof high paying white collar jobs. Being a state capital AND a railroad hub makes Atlanta a regional superpower over Montgomery, Jackson, Tallahassee, and Columbia.

Instead, Memphis is a river city with a similar economic base as New Orleans and St. Louis which are also in deep distress. Competing with Nashville in the same state just makes a hard situation more difficult.

Ranching, rail, and early industry gave Dallas an economic headstart compared to other cities in the region-an advantage that compounded with the establishment of a regional airport hub. Major airport hub applies to Atlanta as well.

Alabama-Montgomery
Arkansas-Little Rock
Florida-Tallahassee
Georgia-Atlanta
Louisiana-Baton Rouge
Mississippi-Jackson
North Carolina-Raleigh
South Carolina-Columbia
Texas-Austin
Tennessee-Nashville
Virginia-Richmond
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