HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #4381  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 10:56 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
How can this be? Everyone loved it, and I mean loved it, at first.
Yes, thirty years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Then it kind of fell out of fashion as smaller, more traditional baseball-specific stadiums with natural grass popped up. So now everyone hates it because it isn't like Globe Life Park, but nothing about Skydome itself has changed... it just isn't at the front of the pack anymore.
It's a giant, cold, cavernous concrete block, with an exceptionally heavy and cumbersome roof, and limited amenity options without further renovations. And it's bigger than it needs to be. It has served its purpose. SkyDome was outdated as soon as Camden Yards opened its doors a few years later.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4382  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 10:57 PM
Andy6's Avatar
Andy6 Andy6 is offline
Starring as himself
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Toronto Yorkville
Posts: 9,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
How can this be? Everyone loved it, and I mean loved it, at first. Then it kind of fell out of fashion as smaller, more traditional baseball-specific stadiums with natural grass popped up. So now everyone hates it because it isn't like Globe Life Park, but nothing about Skydome itself has changed... it just isn't at the front of the pack anymore.
I guess there is a shift in baseball fandom from working-class and modest middle-class people in the 1970s and 80s toward the upper middle "chattering" class that looks at attending a ball game, not as a cheap pastime but rather as a sort of nostalgic performance art, which is spoiled if the surroundings aren't a Disney-perfect park straight out of the 1940s.

On a less speculative note, it was actually Winnipeg's John Robertson (former 24 Hours host and our 1981 Tory candidate in St. Vital), who as the Blue Jays columnist for the Toronto Star later in the 1980s, started the natural turf campaign, complaining endlessly that the Dome was too antiseptic. That was a tough tack to take at the time, when the whole country was mesmerized by the Dome and believed that the stadium made Canada the envy of the baseball world. Then the Baltimore stadium came along and the Dome was yesterday's news.
__________________
crispy crunchy light and snappy
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4383  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 10:58 PM
hipster duck's Avatar
hipster duck hipster duck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Toronto
Posts: 4,111
As an Ontario taxpayer, I smell a massive boondoggle in the making.

I'm kind of okay with land swaps - given the value of downtown Toronto land, I already think that this is massively generous - but I'm definitely not okay with a single red cent of public money being spent to help Rogers build a stadium that we all know will be "obsolete" again in 30 years time.

But, then again, does Rogers have any trump cards? They can't really threaten to move Canada's only MLB team elsewhere. Where would they go? An American city? That's not a good look for a company that's already one of the most hated brands in Canada.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4384  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 11:00 PM
Djeffery Djeffery is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: London
Posts: 4,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
Do they own the land underneath? Or is that still federal government property?
I'm pretty sure it still remains federal government property, not provincial. It was CN land back then, and one of the many articles I saw today mentioned Canada Lands Company ownership
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4385  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 11:02 PM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto & NYC
Posts: 5,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
How can this be? Everyone loved it, and I mean loved it, at first. Then it kind of fell out of fashion as smaller, more traditional baseball-specific stadiums with natural grass popped up. So now everyone hates it because it isn't like Globe Life Park, but nothing about Skydome itself has changed... it just isn't at the front of the pack anymore.

I always found this phenomenon interesting. It reminds me of the old days with the Winnipeg Jets 1.0. In 1987 nobody had a problem with attending games at Winnipeg Arena. But as the Jets ownership leaned on sportswriters to push the narrative that the old rink sucked, and barely 5 years later it was considered a well accepted fact that Winnipeg Arena was a miserable dump and it had to be replaced right away. There's probably a thesis waiting to be written about the opinion-shaping that takes places in those situations.
I mean my grandpa loved his new Chevy when he got it, but that doesn't change the fact that it was obviously out of date and he needed something new when things like power steering and safety features became standard.

For the Skydome I'd argue that it's the opposite. When it opened it was a cool, kind of gimicky draw to sit there and watch the dome open, but it was always a sub-par fan experience for both football and baseball. Once the excitement of being new and unique wears off then all that's left is the warts that start to wear on you more and more every year. Those warts become more apparent as you watch your team play on other fields with pristine grass and better viewing experiences. People still like the dome for the nostalgia, and it always shined because of it's atmosphere, but you can still go back and watch highlights of the Jay's World Series wins and it's painfully clear that it's not designed for baseball.
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4386  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 11:04 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy6 View Post
I guess there is a shift in baseball fandom from working-class and modest middle-class people in the 1970s and 80s toward the upper middle "chattering" class that looks at attending a ball game, not as a cheap pastime but rather as a sort of nostalgic performance art, which is spoiled if the surroundings aren't a Disney-perfect park straight out of the 1940s.
Wow, I think you nailed it with that answer. But then, I suppose it isn't entirely unreasonable given that if people are ponying up thousands of dollars for pricy season tickets, their expectations will be much higher than someone who threw down a twenty to take their whole family to a game at Exhibition Stadium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
As an Ontario taxpayer, I smell a massive boondoggle in the making.
Rogers/Brookfield + stadium deal + downtown development site... I'd say your instincts are 100 per cent spot on.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4387  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2020, 11:55 PM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,450
My guess would be that they would want to build more than just a ballpark and some towers. I am guessing they would want to build more of a "village" atmosphere like The Battery in Atlanta, which includes the ballpark as the centrepiece, almost a community surrounding the ballpark, with condos, hotels, a Main Street feel, etc.

https://www.nelsonworldwide.com/project/the-battery/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4388  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 12:02 AM
Djeffery Djeffery is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: London
Posts: 4,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2 View Post
My guess would be that they would want to build more than just a ballpark and some towers. I am guessing they would want to build more of a "village" atmosphere like The Battery in Atlanta, which includes the ballpark as the centrepiece, almost a community surrounding the ballpark, with condos, hotels, a Main Street feel, etc.

https://www.nelsonworldwide.com/project/the-battery/
Which is why I think they are going to the portlands, complete with a bunch of government money towards revitalizing that area.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4389  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 1:13 AM
wave46 wave46 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
I mean my grandpa loved his new Chevy when he got it, but that doesn't change the fact that it was obviously out of date and he needed something new when things like power steering and safety features became standard.

For the Skydome I'd argue that it's the opposite. When it opened it was a cool, kind of gimicky draw to sit there and watch the dome open, but it was always a sub-par fan experience for both football and baseball. Once the excitement of being new and unique wears off then all that's left is the warts that start to wear on you more and more every year. Those warts become more apparent as you watch your team play on other fields with pristine grass and better viewing experiences. People still like the dome for the nostalgia, and it always shined because of it's atmosphere, but you can still go back and watch highlights of the Jay's World Series wins and it's painfully clear that it's not designed for baseball.
I don't think the Chevy comparison is apt.

It's like a 1990s Honda Civic versus a late model one. Both are completely acceptable transportation. They both are reasonably reliable, reasonably safe cars. The modern Civic is much more 'in vogue' with modern tastes and has more nice features (heated seats, anyone?) but isn't so fundamentally better as spend mid-$20k if you have a well-maintained 1990s one in the driveway.

The Skydome doesn't lack anything those old multipurpose stadiums missed. Prime location? Check. Paid for? Check. Money-making luxury suites? Check. Good transit connections? Done. Weather protection? The Dome is a much nicer place to be during April and October (not that the Jays usually make it that far).

The worst problems it has are:

1. It's oversized, but I think that's more a larger problem of baseball pricing itself out, or becoming less relevant, or just having a consistently sucky team.

2. The other one is the aesthetic isn't 'classic baseball'. That's the rub though - sucky teams in weak markets just don't draw very well regardless of how nice the stadium is. The new stadium may cause a brief blip in attendance, but it's hard to sustain that if the team isn't good and the market just isn't that into baseball.

I suspect this is mostly a long-game PR thing from Rogers. They might not replace the stadium for another 20 years. I suspect they are just trying to test the fertility of the ground for a new stadium. If it doesn't go anywhere, you've just slowly worn away the idea that Skydome is fine. The slow erosion of that idea is part of the PR play.

They know what they need to do to fill the place. Spend gads of money on the on-field product to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox (and hope those teams suck). Does that make money long-term? Don't know. Ask Rogers' accountants. Maybe they seem content to make money by running the Jays into the ground. I think there will have to be a point where they have to spend money to make money.

It's a weird spot to be in for Rogers. A team that hurts for attendance can 'justify' a smaller venue but generally spending public money on a team that isn't loved at the time is harder.

However, making the team successful would likely fill Skydome, making it harder to justify a smaller venue in one way, but more likely to justify it in another.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4390  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 10:15 PM
craner's Avatar
craner craner is offline
Go Tall or Go Home
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 6,753
I wonder what they do with all the stadium seats when they demolish a place like Skydome ?
Maybe I should ask Atlanta - they’ve had a lot of experience with this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4391  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 10:36 PM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto & NYC
Posts: 5,377
Sometimes they're sold/auctioned off. I knew a few people growing up whose dads had a seat from the Maple Leaf Gardens in their basement.
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4392  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 10:43 PM
Djeffery Djeffery is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: London
Posts: 4,518
A strip club in London had some seats from Joe Louis Arena. So I've heard.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4393  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2020, 11:18 PM
Berklon's Avatar
Berklon Berklon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hamilton (The Brooklyn of Canada)
Posts: 3,048
If the Coyotes demolish their arena, you could get a bargain on one of many mint condition unused seats.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4394  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 12:18 AM
logan5's Avatar
logan5 logan5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mt.Pleasant
Posts: 6,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
I don't think the Chevy comparison is apt.

It's like a 1990s Honda Civic versus a late model one. Both are completely acceptable transportation. They both are reasonably reliable, reasonably safe cars. The modern Civic is much more 'in vogue' with modern tastes and has more nice features (heated seats, anyone?) but isn't so fundamentally better as spend mid-$20k if you have a well-maintained 1990s one in the driveway.

The Skydome doesn't lack anything those old multipurpose stadiums missed. Prime location? Check. Paid for? Check. Money-making luxury suites? Check. Good transit connections? Done. Weather protection? The Dome is a much nicer place to be during April and October (not that the Jays usually make it that far).

The worst problems it has are:

1. It's oversized, but I think that's more a larger problem of baseball pricing itself out, or becoming less relevant, or just having a consistently sucky team.

2. The other one is the aesthetic isn't 'classic baseball'. That's the rub though - sucky teams in weak markets just don't draw very well regardless of how nice the stadium is. The new stadium may cause a brief blip in attendance, but it's hard to sustain that if the team isn't good and the market just isn't that into baseball.

I suspect this is mostly a long-game PR thing from Rogers. They might not replace the stadium for another 20 years. I suspect they are just trying to test the fertility of the ground for a new stadium. If it doesn't go anywhere, you've just slowly worn away the idea that Skydome is fine. The slow erosion of that idea is part of the PR play.

They know what they need to do to fill the place. Spend gads of money on the on-field product to compete with the Yankees and Red Sox (and hope those teams suck). Does that make money long-term? Don't know. Ask Rogers' accountants. Maybe they seem content to make money by running the Jays into the ground. I think there will have to be a point where they have to spend money to make money.

It's a weird spot to be in for Rogers. A team that hurts for attendance can 'justify' a smaller venue but generally spending public money on a team that isn't loved at the time is harder.

However, making the team successful would likely fill Skydome, making it harder to justify a smaller venue in one way, but more likely to justify it in another.
Disagree wjth most of what you have said here. The stadium is a huge part of the game day experience, and that can carry attendance through the rough times. Rogers is sterile compares to the great parks in the states. Best scénario would be a new park right on the water like in San Francisco. If you are going to build a new ball park, lets build the best park possible.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4395  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 12:33 AM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto & NYC
Posts: 5,377
Ya honestly if they hadn't added the standing room "Flight Deck" in centre field at The Rogers Centre I would go to way less games than I do when the team sucks. Baseball is probably one of the most experience-oriented sports inside the stadium given the pace of play of the actual game. It can be more of social activity than a sporting one. More fan-friendly standing room areas where I can go with a bunch of buddies would make me way more inclined to buy tickets when times are tough on the field. If I lived next to Camden Yards or Coors Field I'd probably go once a week. Now sometimes I debate going to a busier game because if I don't there early enough for a spot on the flight deck I don't really want to sit in a crappy seat with bad sight lines for 3 hours.

In the summer, an after work baseball game is like a replacement for meeting at a bar once everyone gets out of the office. Understanding people's motivations for actually going to game and targeting them is a good business move.
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4396  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 1:58 AM
wave46 wave46 is offline
Closed account
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Disagree wjth most of what you have said here. The stadium is a huge part of the game day experience, and that can carry attendance through the rough times. Rogers is sterile compares to the great parks in the states. Best scénario would be a new park right on the water like in San Francisco. If you are going to build a new ball park, lets build the best park possible.
As long as I'm not footing the bill, Rogers can do what it pleases.

I already am still paying for the last one involuntarily (the province of Ontario issued debt to cover the cost of the Skydome), so I will vehemently campaign against another government gift to a private corporation that already gets extreme preferential treatment in Canada.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4397  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 2:58 AM
logan5's Avatar
logan5 logan5 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mt.Pleasant
Posts: 6,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by wave46 View Post
As long as I'm not footing the bill, Rogers can do what it pleases.

I already am still paying for the last one involuntarily (the province of Ontario issued debt to cover the cost of the Skydome), so I will vehemently campaign against another government gift to a private corporation that already gets extreme preferential treatment in Canada.
Its ridiculous that a huge city like Toronto( by north american standards) has to settle for one of the worst stadiums in baseball. Theres obviously a huge following for the blue jays across the country (see t mobile when toronto is there), so if the there is government help to bring us up to par, ill accept it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4398  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 3:24 AM
Djeffery Djeffery is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: London
Posts: 4,518
Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Its ridiculous that a huge city like Toronto( by north american standards) has to settle for one of the worst stadiums in baseball. Theres obviously a huge following for the blue jays across the country (see t mobile when toronto is there), so if the there is government help to bring us up to par, ill accept it.
I think it will be a Minute Maid type park on this piece of land and you can bet there will be government money involved.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64728.../data=!3m1!1e3
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4399  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 3:29 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djeffery View Post
I think it will be a Minute Maid type park on this piece of land and you can bet there will be government money involved.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.64728.../data=!3m1!1e3
Right downtown but not exactly a transit-friendly location.

While many would be opposed, I can see upper level governments putting money into it, as the Blue Jays are actually quite popular and seen in a positive light. (Their ownership perhaps not so much though.)
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4400  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2020, 4:44 AM
Gdoggy's Avatar
Gdoggy Gdoggy is offline
Leaf Nation / Toro Nation
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 746
I think between the economic benefits to the city and the jobs it would create, it's a win-win situation. my quick take

1) Privately funded
2) Added revenue for the city for the new towers as well as city greenspace/park land on the most expensive real estate in the country.
3) Economic spin offs from increased tourism (Scotiabank Arenahad a 2.4 billion impact towards the economy over the first 10 years it was open)
4) Naming Rights (Scotia is paying $800 million over 20 years, I'm sure the new stadium could fetch about this as well)
5) Baseball first facility with grass fielding in a state of the art new park, will attract fans and tourist. The city is much deserving of such a facility.

personally I prefer they swap land for land at Ontario place. Will be a great terminal for the proposed relief line.
__________________
Centre of the hockey universe... Home of the Hockey Hall of Fame... Host of the first game in NBA history... Site of Babe Ruth's first professional home run
Future home of the NFL... 7.2 million strong and growing !!!

Greater Toronto Area Population: 7,221,909 (JUL 2020)
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:20 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.