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  #101  
Old Posted May 6, 2021, 8:58 PM
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The small cities can't resist it... the short term bump in tax revenue, part time jobs and "status" is too hard to say no to, even though it inevitably comes back to bite you when Main Street hollows out a few years later.

Selkirk, Manitoba is a classic case of always chasing rainbows. There is a 1920s small town main drag, right nearby is a 1960s more car-centric strip where there are parking lots in front of the stores, then way out on the edge of town is the newer power centre with massive parking lots. Guess which of those is struggling and which is thriving.
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  #102  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 8:15 AM
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The small cities can't resist it... the short term bump in tax revenue, part time jobs and "status" is too hard to say no to, even though it inevitably comes back to bite you when Main Street hollows out a few years later.

Selkirk, Manitoba is a classic case of always chasing rainbows. There is a 1920s small town main drag, right nearby is a 1960s more car-centric strip where there are parking lots in front of the stores, then way out on the edge of town is the newer power centre with massive parking lots. Guess which of those is struggling and which is thriving.
Being from SW MB, Brandon is the poster child for destroying its downtown. Back when dinosaurs roamed the plains the downtown was the place to be with the Wheat City arena downtown. The Fair Grounds were on the southern periphery of the city. Then the province built the Keystone Centre at the fair grounds, then further south the Brandon Shoppers mall was built where the old Imperial Oil Storage area was located. As a result the downtown started to stagnate and then the final nail was the building of the Corral Power Centre on the fucking Assiniboine Flood Plain! Brandon's downtown has/had some good bones but I think its too far gone for recovery.
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  #103  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 1:20 PM
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I've never checked that town out before, looks nice though!
https://goo.gl/maps/LEFGgHeSyPCBjS6ZA

The Ottawa area has some good ones.
Despite its proximity to Ottawa some good bands apparently played shows in Almonte back in the day, and everyone I know from there seems to have been in a punk/hardcore/post-emo band in the late 90s. I still hear stories about seeing Propagandhi and At the Drive-in who apparently made Almonte a tour stop, though I can't find any evidence of the latter actually happening (this would have been when they were quite small, to be fair).
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  #104  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Being from SW MB, Brandon is the poster child for destroying its downtown. Back when dinosaurs roamed the plains the downtown was the place to be with the Wheat City arena downtown. The Fair Grounds were on the southern periphery of the city. Then the province built the Keystone Centre at the fair grounds, then further south the Brandon Shoppers mall was built where the old Imperial Oil Storage area was located. As a result the downtown started to stagnate and then the final nail was the building of the Corral Power Centre on the fucking Assiniboine Flood Plain! Brandon's downtown has/had some good bones but I think its too far gone for recovery.
Brandon may have made some mistakes but it's downtown still has good bones.

The true poster-child of downtown destruction is Brantford because they really did destroy it. They took 2 full blocks of their decaying but still historic downtown and razed it to the ground.

in terms of actually having the worst and smallest downtown of any Canadian city, Abbotsford still reigns supreme. It's 'downtown" {and I use that word in the very loosest term} is one the size of a town of 1,000 people not one of 150,000 and you could drive right thru it and never even notice it.
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  #105  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 10:11 PM
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Abbotsford doesn't have a downtwon. Hell, downtown Osoyoos feels bigger.

How many downtowns in medium-sized cities in Canada will be destroyed before people wake up to the fact that big box developments are vampires? There are so few left that are worth visiting, and those that survived are a shadow of what they once were.

Malls were hard on downtowns. Big Box developments have been fatal.

Worst of all, THEY ALL LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME.
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  #106  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 10:39 PM
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Yesterday I drove through Tillsonburg on the way back from a beach town tour: Port Stanley - why are the modern homes so tastefully-designed here vs Muskoka & Sauble Beach?!, my favourite was Port Bruce and then Port Burwell where I've been before. Stopped at the Tillsonburg Walmart (weird mall reminds me of Stanley Park Mall meets Lawrence Square) and gotta say I kind of liked the Old Colony & Russian Mennonites + the conservative Dutch women there ha. Old school European family values. But what else would I do in Tillsonburg if I moved there?
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  #107  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 10:52 PM
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How come everything in Ontario seems to be called Bruce or Don?
I mean who are these guys??
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  #108  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 10:54 PM
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^Our Orangemen ancestors remembering their past. Respect.

I also drove through Copenhagen and Vienna. Vienna is nice.
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  #109  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Denscity View Post
How come everything in Ontario seems to be called Bruce or Don?
I mean who are these guys??
James Bruce, Earl of Elgin, Earl of Kincardine; GG of Canada 1847 - 1854.

The Don is a river in England.
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  #110  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 12:19 AM
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Thank you always actually wondered why those names seemed to be everywhere there.
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  #111  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 3:26 AM
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Abbotsford doesn't have a downtwon.
Related discussion that could be interesting: biggest downtown-less municipalities? I'd nominate Laval. Buildings from the 1700s but no central downtown at all.
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  #112  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 4:17 AM
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Related discussion that could be interesting: biggest downtown-less municipalities? I'd nominate Laval. Buildings from the 1700s but no central downtown at all.
Mississauga. End of discussion.
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  #113  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 4:52 AM
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Related discussion that could be interesting: biggest downtown-less municipalities? I'd nominate Laval. Buildings from the 1700s but no central downtown at all.
That would be just about every suburb or bedroom community (some may vehemently disagree), like Burnaby, Surrey, Richmond, etc., where there are pseudo downtowns, perhaps vestigial ones, or recently constructed facsimiles.
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  #114  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 2:06 AM
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For the amount of (justified) hate Milton gets on this forum it has a surprisingly decent main street:



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  #115  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 2:45 AM
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^Yeah Old Milton and the semi rural Milton in the woods above the escarpment is actually very nice. It's the post 1980 suburbs and commercial sprawl that needs to be flattened.

Paris is overrated; Ayr is slightly better but New Hamburg even better?

Villages I frequently drive through that I like: Millbank, Harrisburg, Jerseyville, Carlisle, Campbellville, Arkell, Eden Mills, Limehouse, Maryhill, Conestogo, Belwood, Moorefield.
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  #116  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 1:35 PM
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
^Yeah Old Milton and the semi rural Milton in the woods above the escarpment is actually very nice. It's the post 1980 suburbs and commercial sprawl that needs to be flattened.

Paris is overrated; Ayr is slightly better but New Hamburg even better?

Villages I frequently drive through that I like: Millbank, Harrisburg, Jerseyville, Carlisle, Campbellville, Arkell, Eden Mills, Limehouse, Maryhill, Conestogo, Belwood, Moorefield.
Absolutely not... I respectfully would have to disagree. Ayr and New Hamburg are not better than Paris. Is Paris overrated? Perhaps, I dunno.. but I still give it a competitive edge over the other two. .. That's just me though.

Milton's downtown is actually extremely charming.. but you're right.. the post 80's cookie cutter stepford wives development kills or at least spoils Milton which is otherwise very cute.
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  #117  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Being from SW MB, Brandon is the poster child for destroying its downtown. Back when dinosaurs roamed the plains the downtown was the place to be with the Wheat City arena downtown. The Fair Grounds were on the southern periphery of the city. Then the province built the Keystone Centre at the fair grounds, then further south the Brandon Shoppers mall was built where the old Imperial Oil Storage area was located. As a result the downtown started to stagnate and then the final nail was the building of the Corral Power Centre on the fucking Assiniboine Flood Plain! Brandon's downtown has/had some good bones but I think its too far gone for recovery.
The funny thing is that people in Brandon seem to cheer on downtown's demise. No one loves downtown Brandon. I get the impression that the best news possible for Brandon would be to announce the "Brantford treatment" consisting of demolishing everything on Princess and Rosser with replacement by a typical Sobey's-Home Depot-Winners power centre. They'd be cheering in the streets.

Winnipeg has done a pretty shoddy job with its downtown but at least we're trying. Brandon, on the other hand, hates its downtown like no other place I've ever seen in Canada. Which is sad, because as you point out the bones of downtown Brandon are good and with a modicum of effort it could easily have been the best downtown (for its size) anywhere on the prairies.
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  #118  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 2:42 PM
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The funny thing is that people in Brandon seem to cheer on downtown's demise. No one loves downtown Brandon. I get the impression that the best news possible for Brandon would be to announce the "Brantford treatment" consisting of demolishing everything on Princess and Rosser with replacement by a typical Sobey's-Home Depot-Winners power centre. They'd be cheering in the streets.

Winnipeg has done a pretty shoddy job with its downtown but at least we're trying. Brandon, on the other hand, hates its downtown like no other place I've ever seen in Canada. Which is sad, because as you point out the bones of downtown Brandon are good and with a modicum of effort it could easily have been the best downtown (for its size) anywhere on the prairies.
When a certain big box store takes a large portion of every dollar spent the result for the downtowns in small to medium sized cities is very negative. This is seen throughout North America. In the past quarter century Canadian-owned retail has been decimated.

Winnipeg made a very poor planning decision in the 20 years following WWII to develop the once primarily residential areas south of Graham Ave. into the CBD as office and parking space, thus essentially doubling the size of downtown. The result is an absolutely massive downtown area for a city of its size. That combined with building and expanding a shopping mall and retail district within a ten minute drive of Portage & Main. Forty years ago Polo Park was a one level mall with not very much else around it save for the stadium and arena as well as industrial areas. Now it is a huge retail area and correspondingly downtown retail has really suffered. Portage Place did little to stop the bleeding, in fact downtown malls in most cities have been abject failures. Notwithstanding, increased residential construction, the addition of the Forks and improvements to the Exchange District and the Waterfront have resulted in downtown Winnipeg being considerably improved in comparison to what it was in the 90s. We will have to see how long the economy takes to recover from what has happened over the last year. I'm hoping the recovery will be quick but at Christmas '29 no one thought they were entering a decade long depression.

It's not unheard of for downtown areas to shift over time. Vancouver's downtown used to be centred to the east around Victory Square towards Main and Hastings. Over time it moved west to the area between Granville and Burrard.
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  #119  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
When a certain big box store takes a large portion of every dollar spent the result for the downtowns in small to medium sized cities is very negative. This is seen throughout North America. In the past quarter century Canadian-owned retail has been decimated.

Winnipeg made a very poor planning decision in the 20 years following WWII to develop the once primarily residential areas south of Graham Ave. into the CBD as office and parking space, thus essentially doubling the size of downtown. The result is an absolutely massive downtown area for a city of its size. That combined with building and expanding a shopping mall and retail district within a ten minute drive of Portage & Main. Forty years ago Polo Park was a one level mall with not very much else around it save for the stadium and arena as well as industrial areas. Now it is a huge retail area and correspondingly downtown retail has really suffered. Portage Place did little to stop the bleeding, in fact downtown malls in most cities have been abject failures. Notwithstanding, increased residential construction, the addition of the Forks and improvements to the Exchange District and the Waterfront have resulted in downtown Winnipeg being considerably improved in comparison to what it was in the 90s. We will have to see how long the economy takes to recover from what has happened over the last year. I'm hoping the recovery will be quick but at Christmas '29 no one thought they were entering a decade long depression.

It's not unheard of for downtown areas to shift over time. Vancouver's downtown used to be centred to the east around Victory Square towards Main and Hastings. Over time it moved west to the area between Granville and Burrard.
I don't know Winnipeg too well, but if that hadn't happened, would they have just demolished the grand old warehouses in the Exchange District instead?

Downtown Winnipeg kind of reminds me of a smaller downtown LA, where they sacrificed an interesting, but not particularly unique residential area to be the skyscraper/CBD kind of area (Bunker Hill in LA), but, in the process left behind a much more unique collection of solid warehouse and early 20th century mid-rise blocks, which are now, far and away, downtown's greatest asset.
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  #120  
Old Posted May 10, 2021, 2:57 PM
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I don't know Winnipeg too well, but if that hadn't happened, would they have just demolished the grand old warehouses in the Exchange District instead?

Downtown Winnipeg kind of reminds me of a smaller downtown LA, where they sacrificed an interesting, but not particularly unique residential area to be the skyscraper/CBD kind of area (Bunker Hill in LA), but, in the process left behind a much more unique collection of solid warehouse and early 20th century mid-rise blocks, which are now, far and away, downtown's greatest asset.
The warehouses remained in quasi-industrial use right into the 70s so much was preserved but unfortunately there were a huge number of demolitions in order to construct the new hideous (was dubbed Canada's ugliest building even when brand new) City Hall, and then across Main Street the Museum, Planetarium and Theatre Centre. The part of downtown north of City Hall was virtually destroyed during that time period.
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