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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:12 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Seen the video before. And it is a fantastic summary of all the problems with Hyperloop. 30 mins might be beyond the attention span of swimmer_spe though.....

Fundamentally, Hyperloop violates the most basic principle of simplicity. It's a solution that involves a massive increase in complexity for very little in actual gain over existing HSR and Maglev technologies.

There's some things he didn't mention in that video. Musk said 30 mins from LA to SF. In reality, their proposal was 30 mins from Burbank to Oakland. Not "downtown" on either side. So all the added inconveniences of driving to an airport. The other issue not mentioned in that video is the risk acceptance for certification. For passenger aviation, designs and modifications aren't certified unless they can show a probable fatality risk no greater than 1 in 10 million. The amount of technological maturation, testing and demonstration needed to prove this on every single Hyperloop (unlike airplanes every single one is different), would kill the idea.

To date, the fastest Hyperloop has achieved is 463 kph. And that's for a cart on a test track. They aren't close to carrying a human. Or building a full sized pod in a full sized tube to test out how they are going to overcome the Kantrowitz limit. Compare that to the Chuo Shinkansen. Plain old full sized Maglev train that does 500 kph on the test track regularly and maxed out at over 600 kph. No Guinness Record vacuum chamber required. And it has actually carried 200 000 humans on test rides.
Why would any of us want it fast tracked? I for one think the idea of testing till we know it is as safe as a plane isn't a bad idea.

We have Via Rail stations not int eh middle of the city (Edmonton) yet everyone feels that is fine. I agree that if this were built out, it should go to the airports, and to the downtown cores. If it is only going to the edge of the cities, then it is dead before it gets going.

The first train wasn't fast. From what you are saying about flying, I would think you would be happy they are testing it thoroughly. BTW, 463 km/hr would be 1 hour, which would be competing with air travel. Imagine, building something between cities that competes with flying, yet will not be delayed due to weather. Maglevs are even prone to slow speeds in weather.

I am not saying this is going to be the solution to our transportation, but if they can show it is as safe as flying, and it won't be much more expensive than flying, why not?

How much is a new airport worth?
How much is a new plane worth?

Speed costs money. Let's spend some money.

Or, just enjoy the delays behind a slow freight train.
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:39 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The guy who did that Hyperloop video has an updated one that is even more entertaining.

Video Link


I always wonder how people fall for such bullshit. But then discussions like this thread show how gullible people really are.
Tell me something... How long did it take for the airplane to go from concept to regular passenger use? How long did it take for the electric car to be built by most manufactures from when it first was designed?

Got to start somewhere.

Saying that the physics doesn't work shows your lack of understanding of physics.

Saying that I for one second think it will be cheaper, shows your lack of an attention span.
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:39 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Why am I not surprised that you didn't even have the attention span to get through the videos?

Called it.
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  #44  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:49 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Why am I not surprised that you didn't even have the attention span to get through the videos?

Called it.
I watched the second one. The first one, I didn't. It is a matter of time management. I ave a life, and am doing other things besides responding to you.
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  #45  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:53 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
I watched the second one. The first one, I didn't. It is a matter of time management. I ave a life, and am doing other things besides responding to you.
Your response doesn't reflect any content in either video. So I have real doubts you watched either. As expected.

You're here to troll. Not engage.
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  #46  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:58 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
I watched the second one. The first one, I didn't. It is a matter of time management. I ave a life, and am doing other things besides responding to you.
It's a good video, more educational and worth time than arguing on here.
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  #47  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 4:05 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
It's a good video, more educational and worth time than arguing on here.
He is not here to learn. He's here to get his ego stroked and just wants us to agree that he's right with whatever he says. Must be a required trait for believing in the viability of Hyperloop.....

The rest of you should watch the second video too. The look back on the timeline really shows you how the scam runs with constantly moving goalposts. The comparison with Theranos is apt and hilarious. I hadn't thought of that before.
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  #48  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 4:32 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
He is not here to learn. He's here to get his ego stroked and just wants us to agree that he's right with whatever he says. Must be a required trait for believing in the viability of Hyperloop.....

The rest of you should watch the second video too. The look back on the timeline really shows you how the scam runs with constantly moving goalposts. The comparison with Theranos is apt and hilarious. I hadn't thought of that before.
Yep I saw the new video too, the comparison with Theranos was excellent. I remember thinking Theranos was obviously BS too and was correct, so I'm quite sure we'll see Hyperloop fail eventually too, after millions of money down the drain of course.
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  #49  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 4:34 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
As do the rest of us. But there's this dude that keeps saying the only trains we should discuss are the ones he's interested in....

He was supposed to go to his MPs office and show 'em who's boss after doing all his research. But apparently he has a "life" and can't spare 30 mins (no issues trolling got hours though....). And that is why we'll never have a train from Boston to Halifax.
Sadly living in Canada there is very little to do with trains to discuss most of the time.
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  #50  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 4:42 AM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
It's a good video, more educational and worth time than arguing on here.
Agreed. But sometimes I am bored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
He is not here to learn. He's here to get his ego stroked and just wants us to agree that he's right with whatever he says. Must be a required trait for believing in the viability of Hyperloop.....

The rest of you should watch the second video too. The look back on the timeline really shows you how the scam runs with constantly moving goalposts. The comparison with Theranos is apt and hilarious. I hadn't thought of that before.
I noticed that comparison. I would say the better one would be when Bill Gates said that the most storage we would need is a 3.5 floppy. See, we think that something this huge is all we ever will need, and then, something more huge comes out. 1TB used to be massive. Now I have one in my computer and wondering if I can get a 2TB in it.

Steam was king. Then they found something better. Diesel electric. But, then they found they could get rid of the engine and just put wires above or below the tracks to reduce weight.

Wheels were king. Now we have been seeing that magnetism could be the way of the future.

That is why I am not going to laugh at the hyperloop. Right now it won't be cheaper. The first tickets on one, if it ever gets going for regular service will not be cheap either. But neither was plane travel. To ignore this progression means you do not understand economies of scale.

Why is a train ticket so cheap between Montreal and Toronto? It is because that route has been saturated such that the lower price is what it costs to operate. The Canadian should be about half the price, if not even less if we just put the same fare per distance on it. But it is not that simple.

I keep suggesting to get reliable regular trains on something such as Edmonton-Calgary. Everyone shoots it down due to speed. Well, here we have something that would potentially be faster than a flight, and it is shot down even more harder.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again. - The transcontinental rail line across Canada could never be built today. There is too much bickering about everything but what actually matters. How much does that road in front of your home cost to maintain? How much does the highway cost to plow it when a storm hits. Everything has a cost, yet we will bicker at the price.

I really want to talk about how to best serve the most Canadians with out national rail carrier. The only answer is "we can't do it". When a new idea from elsewhere comes on here, I look at it and decide whether I would want my tax dollars spent on it. Most things, I say why not. Really, if you are employing Canadians, and trying to do something, and it has some basis in reality, then why not? Many things have failed, but have at least been tried.

I asked our resident aerospace engineer about the plane Boeing messed up royally. The 737 Max. You might have heard of the crashes and near crashes of it. It is proof that engineers are not infallible. It is also proof that trying to do things on the cheap, like how this aircraft was designed, is not always the best way to go.

I then pointed out the Avro Arrow. An aircraft that has been argued to still not been matched in it's class. In this day in age, it would not be needed, but still, it was the height of Canadian aerospace engineering. The engineers who built it moved to the USA. Why? Because Canada canceled the program.

The LIM is a Canadian design. In Toronto it is mocked. In Vancouver, it is the backbone of their system. It makes up most of the longest RT system in Canada. It is also the longest automated system in the world.

So, excuse me if I am not going to waste my time on videos that are just there to mock new, unproven technology. If this was 100 years ago, there would be videos mocking the aeroplane. If this was 60 years ago, there would be videos mocking Diesel electric trains. If this was 200 years ago, there would be videos mocking something new called a train.

People fear new things. People fear changes. People have a hard time to admit their mistakes. Via had no chose but to cut lines in the early 1990s. they did not do it due to the ones that were the least profitable. I proved that with numbers provided by a nobody at Via who no longer posts that kind of stuff. He personally attacked me in a Facebook group. He is still in the group, but has since learned that I am not alone in my desires to bring back some of the lines that we cut 30 years ago.

I am a power engineer. I know, it pisses every engineer out there that we can call ourselves engineers and yet never have to be part of the professional engineers. No, I did not do a university degree, but my knowledge and understanding of engineering is close to a Mechanical Engineer. My job is to make sure that pressure vessel does not blow up. I could legally right now go and operate a steam locomotive, regardless of it's rating. So, when someone mocks my knowledge and understanding of engineering and physics, I take it personally.

I know I do not know enough about Via and why it does what it does, but the difference between me and others here is that I want to learn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmt18325 View Post
Guys, I really want to talk about trains here.
Me too.

Me too.
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  #51  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 5:13 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post

I am a power engineer. I know, it pisses every engineer out there that we can call ourselves engineers and yet never have to be part of the professional engineers. No, I did not do a university degree, but my knowledge and understanding of engineering is close to a Mechanical Engineer. My job is to make sure that pressure vessel does not blow up. I could legally right now go and operate a steam locomotive, regardless of it's rating. So, when someone mocks my knowledge and understanding of engineering and physics, I take it personally.
A stationary engineer who doesn't know what happens when you have a rupture of a pressure vessel with a 1 ATM differential and what force that would impart on an object from the resulting pressure wave?

Jesus Christ.

Can you post a list of plants you've worked on?

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
People have a hard time to admit their mistakes.
How generous of you to provide so many live examples.

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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
People fear new things. People fear changes.
And you apparently fear facts and learning.
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  #52  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 10:41 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Agreed. But sometimes I am bored.



I noticed that comparison. I would say the better one would be when Bill Gates said that the most storage we would need is a 3.5 floppy. See, we think that something this huge is all we ever will need, and then, something more huge comes out. 1TB used to be massive. Now I have one in my computer and wondering if I can get a 2TB in it.

Steam was king. Then they found something better. Diesel electric. But, then they found they could get rid of the engine and just put wires above or below the tracks to reduce weight.

Wheels were king. Now we have been seeing that magnetism could be the way of the future.
It is certainly possible that some technological innovations will mitigate some or all of the problems associated with hyperloop, but these technologies don't actually exist. And even if a technological solution is found, it still may not be cost effective. History is also full of theoretically feasible technologies that never really became widespread because of cost, safety or practicality reasons (flying cars, supersonic commercial aviation, jetpacks, hovercraft).
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  #53  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 1:55 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
It is certainly possible that some technological innovations will mitigate some or all of the problems associated with hyperloop, but these technologies don't actually exist. And even if a technological solution is found, it still may not be cost effective. History is also full of theoretically feasible technologies that never really became widespread because of cost, safety or practicality reasons (flying cars, supersonic commercial aviation, jetpacks, hovercraft).
Swimmer_spe is under the impression that there's steep learning curves for everything and that construction of Hyperloops would decline in price substantially. Just like LCD TVs. You know it's true because subways, high speed rail and highway construction is a tenth the cost of what it was a decade ago. The government will be able to give each of us our own Hyperloop in a decade if these trends continue.
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  #54  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 2:16 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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It is certainly possible that some technological innovations will mitigate some or all of the problems associated with hyperloop, but these technologies don't actually exist. And even if a technological solution is found, it still may not be cost effective. History is also full of theoretically feasible technologies that never really became widespread because of cost, safety or practicality reasons (flying cars, supersonic commercial aviation, jetpacks, hovercraft).
I don't disagree. I will simply ask, how will you find out the feasibility unless you test. Right now they are working on fusion reactors to see if it can create the energy needed to be commercially viable. There are many more things that are tested in the world to see if it is feasible. Even the train was once one. Now the train is ubiquitous in our society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Swimmer_spe is under the impression that there's steep learning curves for everything and that construction of Hyperloops would decline in price substantially. Just like LCD TVs. You know it's true because subways, high speed rail and highway construction is a tenth the cost of what it was a decade ago. The government will be able to give each of us our own Hyperloop in a decade if these trends continue.
Really? So, seriously, give your head a shake. I don't think it'll be cheaper.
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  #55  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 2:41 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Really? So, seriously, give your head a shake. I don't think it'll be cheaper.
You should tell that to all the investors, as the original sales pitch was that hyperloop would be cheaper. The longer time hyperloop has been in developed, the more of the original claims have been dropped. They're quietly forgetting the vacuum tube too, so it's essentially just a maglev, which we have had for decades including a commercial line.
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  #56  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:14 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
You should tell that to all the investors, as the original sales pitch was that hyperloop would be cheaper. The longer time hyperloop has been in developed, the more of the original claims have been dropped. They're quietly forgetting the vacuum tube too, so it's essentially just a maglev, which we have had for decades including a commercial line.
Musk's big pledge for 2020 is that they'll unveil a test track with a curve in it. Start saving up for that ticket....

A fool and his money.....

They just keep adding 3 years to the timeline every year and getting new suckers to fund their fun lab time.

I get why governments get involved. It's an easy deflection. Don't have to plan to build high speed rail when you can simply say something better is right around the corner. What I am stunned about are how many rich fools are out there willing to throw money at this.

Meanwhile serious governments are just doing good, honest work and building what works. It's really telling that Hyperloop is only being pitched and is popular in places without high speed rail.
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  #57  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:23 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
I don't disagree. I will simply ask, how will you find out the feasibility unless you test. Right now they are working on fusion reactors to see if it can create the energy needed to be commercially viable. There are many more things that are tested in the world to see if it is feasible. Even the train was once one. Now the train is ubiquitous in our society.
There isn’t really anything to test. Even if someone was willing to put up the money for a test tube long enough for a real world proof of concept test (which by all accounts would be extraordinarily expensive), it is unclear there is a material strong enough strong enough to maintain the necessary vacuum, resist thermal expansion, be sufficiently durable to not spring a leak, support the proposed pods, etc.

Of course R&D in materials is always underway, maybe some day the necessary materials will be invented.
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  #58  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:39 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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They are slowly whittling their way down to a smaller, less capable and more expensive Maglev. I'm just waiting for the first guy who claims they've invented a Hyperloop that doesn't require a tube.....
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  #59  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 3:58 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Musk's big pledge for 2020 is that they'll unveil a test track with a curve in it. Start saving up for that ticket....

A fool and his money.....

They just keep adding 3 years to the timeline every year and getting new suckers to fund their fun lab time.

I get why governments get involved. It's an easy deflection. Don't have to plan to build high speed rail when you can simply say something better is right around the corner. What I am stunned about are how many rich fools are out there willing to throw money at this.

Meanwhile serious governments are just doing good, honest work and building what works. It's really telling that Hyperloop is only being pitched and is popular in places without high speed rail.
I think we can tie the poor investments into the other discussions we have had about the economy. Rich people throwing millions at something that is obviously a scam would be totally expected in an economy where wealth inequality is growing and those with large fortunes are unable to find productive investments. Or that many with large fortunes did not earn them due to their talent, but due to inheritance or rent seeking, and thus have little ability to tell good investment from bad.
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  #60  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 4:45 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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This is what I detest most about Hyperloop. It gave governments everywhere an excuse to cut back on investments in high speed rail. "Why invest $10 billion on HSR when Hyperloop is just around the corner with a tenth the price and double the speed?" And so many gullible folks bought it, just because Elon Musk's name was attached to it. Step up from fanboys who advocate for scrapping all intercity rail investment because self-driving cars are just around the corner....
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