Higher speed limits on Hwy 417

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If it costs millions to change a few speed signs and amend some legislation than we have much bigger problems in Ontario than just this policy.

As for fuel consumption and the environment, it's all based on the assertion that people are simply going to drive faster. I have my doubts about that. Especially given that 110 kph is the norm in the rest of Canada. There's no huge epidemic of everyone driving 140 kph in Alberta or Nova Scotia. In reality, the real effect of the policy is that when you get pulled over for speeding at 130 kph, you'll get ticketed for being 20 kph over as opposed to 10 kph over.



As for time savings. Theoretically, it would save you 17 mins on your trip to Toronto. But I actually don't think it will save anybody much at all, because I don't believe driving behaviour will change all that much. It'll just bring the average driver closer to compliance with the law.

I drove out east last summer and really noticed the difference as follows. In 100 zones. A small minority drive 100 or 105. Another chunk drive 110 or so and the vast majority drive 120-125 or so. As you cross into a 110 zone the majority is still at 120-125 but now the others are clustered around 110-115 instead. It makes traffic flow better.

That said it's a small but insufficient step as our highways are built for 140 and in most of Europe this is the speed of traffic with 130 or 140 limits. I drove across Poland and Germany and especially Poland is a good model with some older slower cars and less experienced drivers which are always the Ontario excuses why we can't have high speed limits. German autobahns are actually so congested it's hard to do much above 140 most of the time except maybe very early in the morning or if you are fine driving that fast at night. Oh and a ton of slow cars in the left lane even in Germany (even as slow as 100 sometimes).

[Dengler Avenue]

Slow vehicles should just use the EDR, period. That’s what the old Highway 17 along Ottawa River is for.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

That said it's a small but insufficient step as our highways are built for 140 and in most of Europe this is the speed of traffic with 130 or 140 limits. I drove across Poland and Germany and especially Poland is a good model with some older slower cars and less experienced drivers which are always the Ontario excuses why we can't have high speed limits. German autobahns are actually so congested it's hard to do much above 140 most of the time except maybe very early in the morning or if you are fine driving that fast at night. Oh and a ton of slow cars in the left lane even in Germany (even as slow as 100 sometimes).

What I really appreciate about a lot of European expressways are electronic speed signs that change the speed limits based on local conditions:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ge...-12111731.html

I think part of the reason we are always so damn worried about increasing the speed limit, is because people imagine the worst case scenario: somebody doing 20-30 kph over the limit in the middle of a winter blizzard. It's a rather unfounded concern. But at least electronic signs might help assuage those concerns. Impose speed limits in real-time.

The other part of the problem is the insistence on a single common speed limit for all 400- series highways in Ontario. This is something Europeans don't do. They have 100 kph in cities and 130 kph in rural areas in most of the EU. This is in fact pretty close to the reality in Ontario. But for some reason, we're really afraid to have speed limits reflect this.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

...There's no huge epidemic of everyone driving 140 kph in Alberta or Nova Scotia. ...

Alberta has photo radar. You get tickets for going the speeds that everyone drives on the 401 and 417.

If the discussion was about raising limits AND rolling out photo radar enforcement, I think those arguing that safety is a concern would be more comfortable with the change.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

Alberta has photo radar. You get tickets for going the speeds that everyone drives on the 401 and 417.

If the discussion was about raising limits AND rolling out photo radar enforcement, I think those arguing that safety is a concern would be more comfortable with the change.

Like I said, this is an enforcement issue. Not a regulatory one. In fact, arguably unrealistic speed limits make things worse because it normalizes deviance and non-compliance.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Like I said, this is an enforcement issue. Not a regulatory one. In fact, arguably unrealistic speed limits make things worse because it normalizes deviance and non-compliance.

The use of photo radar is a regulatory issue. Currently it is only permitted in 'Community Safety Zones'.

If you want to get higher compliance to (raised) speed limits, changing the regulations to allow more efficient enforcement would be a good step.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

The use of photo radar is a regulatory issue. Currently it is only permitted in 'Community Safety Zones'.

If you want to get higher compliance to (raised) speed limits, changing the regulations to allow more efficient enforcement would be a good step.

Agree. Maybe after this, we can start having a discussion with them on raising it to 120 kph in rural areas with photo radar deployed province wide.

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Agree. Maybe after this, we can start having a discussion with them on raising it to 120 kph in rural areas with photo radar deployed province wide.

As long as by 'rural areas' you are referring to 400 series, limited access only. 120 on anything except divided highway with interchanges is not going to happen.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

As long as by 'rural areas' you are referring to 400 series, limited access only. 120 on anything except divided highway with interchanges is not going to happen.

Should be obvious what I was referring too. I don't think anybody has ever suggested speed limits of 120 down some rural "highway". I would go so far as to say 120 kph reserved exclusively for 400 series highways.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by dougvdh

As long as by 'rural areas' you are referring to 400 series, limited access only. 120 on anything except divided highway with interchanges is not going to happen.

Yes of course. In fact I think 90 is too fast on many of those roads. It is crazy that in Ontario a windy road with thick forest almost right to the edge of the road with driveways peeking out might have a limit of 90 and a 4 lane straight highway with no exits for 10 km is 100.

The proposed test sections are some of the safest routes we have along with in our region most of the 416 where 140 or at least 130 would be appropriate. With a raised limit personally I would be fine with cameras and even average speed cameras. The latter work by taking a picture than 5-10 km later another picture and if you travelled the distance over the average speed you get a ticket. People would be rightly up in arms if you did this with a 110 limit as that is far too slow for these stretches.

[qprcanada]

In the UK to combat speeding they use multiple speed cameras over a set distance (ie 5km) to measure average speed.

The speed cameras photograph your license plate entering and existing the zone and if your travel time through the zone is quicker than if you drove the speed limit you will get a speeding fine mailed to the owner of the vehicle.

The zones are well marked with signage to warn drivers.

[rocketphish]

Highway 417 speed limit now 110 km/h east of Anderson Road
1 of 3 strips of highway with higher limit for pilot project

CBC News
Posted: Sep 26, 2019 6:36 AM ET | Last Updated: an hour ago

Drivers looking to drive with a little more lead in their foot are now able to legally rev their engines harder between the Quebec border and east Ottawa.

The provincial government's pilot project to allow drivers to go 110 km/h on three Ontario highways, including a section of Highway 417, begins today.

The section of Highway 417 starts just east of Anderson Road in Ottawa and runs to one kilometre west of the Ontario/Quebec border for a total of 102 kilometers.

The province didn't say when the pilot project could end.



Casselman Mayor Daniel Lafleur said he is already confident the higher limit will make the road less safe.

He said people already speed and with the higher limit they will only speed more.

"If we say 100 km/h, people are going 120 on the 417, so people will [now] be going 130," Lafleur said.

"We are going to have more deaths on our roads and I have a hard time with that."

Mayors of The Nation, Champlain, and Russell said they were not concerned about the increase.

The other areas where speed limits are being increased are a section between St. Catharines and Hamilton and a section between Sarnia and London.

The government is promising more signs and other safety measures to ensure drivers are aware of the speed change. The rules around stunt driving will still apply at 150 km/h.

The government is also accepting feedback on the pilot projects online for the next two months.

Six other Canadian provinces allow for speed limits over 100 km/h.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ilot-1.5297740

[rocketphish]

Survey: raising the speed limit on Ontario highways

https://www.ontario.ca/form/survey-r...tario-highways

[wave46]

I'm in favour of the 110 km/h limit on the 417 between Ottawa and Montreal.

It is a really easy and boring drive. The road is engineered for that speed and the traffic levels are quite moderate. The 180ish km from Ottawa to Montreal always felt longer than the distance indicated.

Remember to slow down at the Quebec border lest you get a prize from the Sûreté du Québec.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm in favour of the 110 km/h limit on the 417 between Ottawa and Montreal.

It is a really easy and boring drive. The road is engineered for that speed and the traffic levels are quite moderate. The 180ish km from Ottawa to Montreal always felt longer than the distance indicated.

Remember to slow down at the Quebec border lest you get a prize from the Sûreté du Québec.

Yea 120 km/h feels like 80 km/h even at night.

Lol, is SQ even that strict?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Yea 120 km/h feels like 80 km/h even at night.

Lol, is SQ even that strict?

Pretty similar to OPP in my experience.

What is unclear at this point is how fast OPP will generally tolerate on the 417 now that it is officially 110.

Previously (when it was 100), the general consensus was that 20 over was pretty much always tolerated in both provinces. If you set your cruise control at 118 you were fine and would never be bothered. 122 might be pushing it a bit but still fairly unlikely to get pulled over.

In New Brunswick where it is 110 on the TCH my sense is that the RCMP tolerates to around 125 pretty systematically.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty similar to OPP in my experience.

What is unclear at this point is how fast OPP will generally tolerate on the 417 now that it is officially 110.

Previously (when it was 100), the general consensus was that 20 over was pretty much always tolerated in both provinces. If you set your cruise control at 118 you were fine and would never be bothered. 122 might be pushing it a bit but still fairly unlikely to get pulled over.

In New Brunswick where it is 110 on the TCH my sense is that the RCMP tolerates to around 125 pretty systematically.

This is the frustration of the fake speed limit we have. I don't notice any drop in speed from Quebec to New Brunswick. Most drive 120-125 on both sides. The 110 does seem to help with the slowest drivers but otherwise I don't think it changes that much.

My experience is generally 125 is 99% safe. Most speed traps look for even faster probably 130 is the typical speed threshold they look at. The problem is sometimes you might get a ticket driving 122 or at least I know people who claim to have been given at ticket at such speed.
I don't think any tickets for actually driving at 118 would be given on 417 but there are people who think you can only go 10 over who clog up the road because of the unreasonably low speed limit.

Curious to see what this change brings to this very quiet and very safe stretch of highway.

[Dengler Avenue]

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...234064&page=24 #464

I made my predictions there. The 110 km/h speed limit will stay on 417.

Now, just hypothetical questions: When 417 gets extended to Renfrew, should the portion between Highway 7 and Arnprior be bumped up to 110 km/h as well?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is the frustration of the fake speed limit we have. I don't notice any drop in speed from Quebec to New Brunswick. Most drive 120-125 on both sides. The 110 does seem to help with the slowest drivers but otherwise I don't think it changes that much.

My experience is generally 125 is 99% safe. Most speed traps look for even faster probably 130 is the typical speed threshold they look at. The problem is sometimes you might get a ticket driving 122 or at least I know people who claim to have been given at ticket at such speed.
I don't think any tickets for actually driving at 118 would be given on 417 but there are people who think you can only go 10 over who clog up the road because of the unreasonably low speed limit.

Curious to see what this change brings to this very quiet and very safe stretch of highway.

My wife and I have both been ticketed by the SQ on the A-50 at 125. We still drive that speed on occasion though always within a pack of vehicles. Never alone out front.

I am comfortable with 118-120 and being the first vehicle alone out front.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My wife and I have both been ticketed by the SQ on the A-50 at 125. We still drive that speed on occasion though always within a pack of vehicles. Never alone out front.

I am comfortable with 118-120 and being the first vehicle alone out front.

Which part of A50? The part with 4 lanes or the part with only 2 lanes?