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  #41  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 5:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
I never thought I'd say this, but I'm kind of with the NCC on this one.

Firstly, I'll call them out by saying that the "impeded access" to the waterfront argument is nonsense.

However, the visual pollution argument is very valid. The parkway is the city's most scenic stretch and must be protected. Forgive my ignorance here, but I'm assuming the LRT will operate via permanent overhead wire fixtures. If so, then I wouldn't want this infrastructure to visually degrade what is an otherwise stunning stretch of the city. It is for this reason that I'm all for burying this stretch. I don't pretend to know the logistics of doing that, and I know that the costs will be much higher, but I think the end result will be better.
But whose view is being affected? The line is on the south side of the Parkway travel lanes, in the opposite direction of the water, so it can't really be anyone travelling on the Parkway. Similarly anyone on the river shore pathway will not be affected. And even if there was some case there, planting a few lines of trees between the parkway and the rail line where they don't already exist would largely get rid of that issue.

The one group that would be affected are those who own the townhouses along there. But then... why does the NCC care about that particular group of property owners and not, say, those along Richmond or Byron?

Truth be told, it's not all that "stunning" along this particular stretch anyway. The growth of shoreline trees has largely screened the vista in the summer months if you're travelling at 60+ km/h.

This just isn't a stunning view, even if it once was. It's basically just grass and trees now. It's a bit more "stunning" further east at Westboro Beach and also near Pinecrest Creek, but not here.
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  #42  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 6:09 PM
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I see the NCC's point on this one, too, but not for aesthetic or waterfront access reasons. I just think that transit belongs on Richmond. Heck if it weren't for Tunneys Pasture, a subway on the West Wellington-Richmond corridor would be far more desirable than the Scott Street trench. This is a chance to actually steer it back towards that axis, closer to a walkable main street.

Using Rochester Field and the Byron strip was part of the long range RMOC plan for the Transitway, they would not have sold the bits of railway ROW in the 1980s otherwise (or maybe they did it deliberately to eliminate other options). The amalgamated city of Ottawa just does not have enough long-term memory to remember this, and although extending the trench would never fly today, the NCC is just making the municipality stick to this corridor and modify it to be acceptable in the contemporary context by burying the line.

Dominion Station was an afterthought, it and an ill-fated New Orchard station were proposed in the 1990s to fill the long gap between Westboro and Lincoln Fields. Even in the city's latest presentations, they seem to side step and ignore its future. Curious how it's never part of the renders for the western extension. I really do hope it gets moved towards Richmond and Denbury, and that the linear park between it and Golden gets landscaped better to host events like the farmer's market and activities around the cenotaph. Great potential for a western anchor and focal point for Westboro Village here.

It's too bad the NCC botched up its PR once again, which is surprising as they are well aware of how sensitive this issue is. They should have come out with a more detailed rationale behind their decision. Maybe the City and the NCC should just hire a mutually agreed upon and impartial engineering consultant to lay out the issues and cost differences properly.
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  #43  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 6:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
But whose view is being affected?
It isn't about anyone's view or any single stretch per se. It's about opening the door to development, which would set a precedent. Today it's this stretch, tomorrow it's another (for whatever purpose). All of this needs to be very carefully considered.

I'm no fan of the NCC, but the parkway is one thing that they actually do well. Some may not think it's stunning, but I do. Besides, what are we arguing about? This isn't even the best route for the western extension. If it were, I'd be on board with the "build it" crowd.
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  #44  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 6:18 PM
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Western Corridor LRT EA - Bayview to Baseline

Creating a dedicated thread for the Western Extension and going to move posts here

Here is the City's website for background. The EA is actually from Bayview to Baseline because originally they were also looking at a Carling route through the O-Train corridor.

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public...tal-assessment

here is the link of the alternative corridor evaluation
http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public...tive-corridors

Last edited by waterloowarrior; Nov 22, 2014 at 6:39 PM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 6:30 PM
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I know Ken Gray is still pushing the Carling Avenue option, but that has so many serious flaws:

1) How to get it back to the main corridor? Would require a long bored tunnel somewhere between Holland and Churchill.

2) Much of the route along Carling would need to be elevated or underground, again increasing costs.

3) Some of the curves would be very sharp, and the geotechnical part at the north end of the line would be very disruptive.

I know he wants a route that runs the length of Carling or at least starts at the O-Train station, but using that corridor is not an option, due to two main failing factors: it skips Tunney's Pasture (a major ridership magnet) and its alignment going in and out of the O-Train trench would be very expensive and disruptive.
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  #46  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 7:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
I see the NCC's point on this one, too, but not for aesthetic or waterfront access reasons. I just think that transit belongs on Richmond. Heck if it weren't for Tunneys Pasture, a subway on the West Wellington-Richmond corridor would be far more desirable than the Scott Street trench. This is a chance to actually steer it back towards that axis, closer to a walkable main street.

Using Rochester Field and the Byron strip was part of the long range RMOC plan for the Transitway, they would not have sold the bits of railway ROW in the 1980s otherwise (or maybe they did it deliberately to eliminate other options). The amalgamated city of Ottawa just does not have enough long-term memory to remember this, and although extending the trench would never fly today, the NCC is just making the municipality stick to this corridor and modify it to be acceptable in the contemporary context by burying the line.
While I have heard that from numerous quarters, not least of which Alex Cullen, I can't actually find any documentation from the early RMOC Transitway planning and design era to back it up. I looked into this issue extensively many years ago and everything just seems to leave what to do about that stretch silent. It may well have been discussed behind the scenes, but if it made it into documentation I haven't been able to find it.

One problem with that routing is that to bring a trench across Rochester Field and under Richmond would almost certainly involve dipping into the water table. Rochester Field is at something of a low point between Westboro to the east and Cleary further west; I'm pretty sure there's a covered creek passing through it, part of which you can see in a "well" of sorts just west of Dominion Station. Roughly speaking Rochester Field is at about the same elevation as the bottom of the Transitway trench. All these discussions amount to tunnelling into a low point.

That's one of the reasons going via the old CPR corridor is so attractive: it comes out of the trench virtually level, goes along at grade past the Rochester Field "valley", then continues at grade along the base of the long hillside leading up to Dovercourt, reenters that hillside at Cleary and then emerges again near Lincoln Fields.

If we could get over our irrational hangups about grade crossings, going via Rochester Field would be a lot simpler and a lot less costly. Another option might be to extensively rework Richmond by raising it from Windermere to Broadview, but that might make for some awkwardness in dealing with Fraser, Mansfield and Westminster.

Quote:
Dominion Station was an afterthought, it and an ill-fated New Orchard station were proposed in the 1990s to fill the long gap between Westboro and Lincoln Fields. Even in the city's latest presentations, they seem to side step and ignore its future. Curious how it's never part of the renders for the western extension. I really do hope it gets moved towards Richmond and Denbury, and that the linear park between it and Golden gets landscaped better to host events like the farmer's market and activities around the cenotaph. Great potential for a western anchor and focal point for Westboro Village here.
I honestly don't think they've given much thought at all to the location of existing stations.

Quote:
It's too bad the NCC botched up its PR once again, which is surprising as they are well aware of how sensitive this issue is. They should have come out with a more detailed rationale behind their decision. Maybe the City and the NCC should just hire a mutually agreed upon and impartial engineering consultant to lay out the issues and cost differences properly.
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  #47  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
While I have heard that from numerous quarters, not least of which Alex Cullen, I can't actually find any documentation from the early RMOC Transitway planning and design era to back it up. I looked into this issue extensively many years ago and everything just seems to leave what to do about that stretch silent. It may well have been discussed behind the scenes, but if it made it into documentation I haven't been able to find it.
^ I found this article (scroll to top right of page) that gives that feeling... they only had a rough estimate of the cost based on other Transitway construction, assumed the NCC would continue to let them use the parkway for the first phase, and the connection sounded more like a conceptual link

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=4198%2C196476
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  #48  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 7:55 PM
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Best compromise would be a fill 1,200 km shallow tunnel. This would eliminate any sort of "visual obstructions" and include a few added access points between Westboro and the River.

The NCC's ridiculous demand of a deep tunnel under the ORP or Rochester Field (and deal with the Richmond issue yourselves cause' it ain't our problem) is nothing but a jackassery. I'm sure anyone with half a head can agree that even a full 1.2 km trench along the ORP (which is not what the City is suggesting) would be less of a visual or physical obstruction than a at grade train on Richmond. And we can't forget the whole point of the O-Train expansion; a full fledged, fully grade separated rapid transit system that stretches as far as financially possible. It's not fair to jeopardize the chances of other communities getting LRT.
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  #49  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2014, 11:27 PM
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First of all, there is absolutely no possibility of a surface rail line on the old Britannia tramway right of way. What we are proposing is not anything like the old Britannia streetcar. The trains will be bigger, much more frequent and running faster. The line has to be grade separated with no level crossings. We just have to look at the issue of the level crossing in Barrhaven and there is something like 7 trains a day in each direction. It is a safety issue but it is also traffic issue. Just go over to the Edmonton board and read about the traffic chaos being caused by ETS trains at level crossings. They created a bad design to save money and it is going to be very difficult to fix it.

So we might as well look at all options based on the assumption that grade separation is needed. Is that we have done when we studied the issue? It seems to me that we going to be tunneling the entire distance beyond the Transitway trench to almost Lincoln Fields. What is this going to do to the cost?

I have been a supporter of the Carling route in the past. I also predicted that the Tunney's Pasture terminus in Phase 1 was going to prejudice the routing for Phase 2. I was right. My preference for the Carling route was about being more central to the west end of the city. However, it is also now clear that a Carling route would also have to be 100% grade separated, whether buried or elevated. The costs are increasing no matter which route is chosen and one has to wonder how this will ever be funded within the desired time schedule.

It will be very unfortunate if the cost of this project puts it beyond the city's ability to pay or the other levels of government political will to support it.
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  #50  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2014, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
I see the NCC's point on this one, too, but not for aesthetic or waterfront access reasons. I just think that transit belongs on Richmond. Heck if it weren't for Tunneys Pasture, a subway on the West Wellington-Richmond corridor would be far more desirable than the Scott Street trench. This is a chance to actually steer it back towards that axis, closer to a walkable main street.

Using Rochester Field and the Byron strip was part of the long range RMOC plan for the Transitway, they would not have sold the bits of railway ROW in the 1980s otherwise (or maybe they did it deliberately to eliminate other options). The amalgamated city of Ottawa just does not have enough long-term memory to remember this, and although extending the trench would never fly today, the NCC is just making the municipality stick to this corridor and modify it to be acceptable in the contemporary context by burying the line.

Dominion Station was an afterthought, it and an ill-fated New Orchard station were proposed in the 1990s to fill the long gap between Westboro and Lincoln Fields. Even in the city's latest presentations, they seem to side step and ignore its future. Curious how it's never part of the renders for the western extension. I really do hope it gets moved towards Richmond and Denbury, and that the linear park between it and Golden gets landscaped better to host events like the farmer's market and activities around the cenotaph. Great potential for a western anchor and focal point for Westboro Village here.

It's too bad the NCC botched up its PR once again, which is surprising as they are well aware of how sensitive this issue is. They should have come out with a more detailed rationale behind their decision. Maybe the City and the NCC should just hire a mutually agreed upon and impartial engineering consultant to lay out the issues and cost differences properly.
How about keeping the Rochester Field & Byron alignment because it's closer to the action on Richmond, and there's no landowner (NCC) requirement for a complete burial. It can be at grade with frequent stops (like downtown), or trenched with a "walkable roof" (metal grates or even a green roof) for pedestrians.
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  #51  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2014, 3:43 PM
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Stop making sense.
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  #52  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2014, 3:48 PM
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The NCC's ridiculous demand of a deep tunnel under the ORP or Rochester Field (and deal with the Richmond issue yourselves cause' it ain't our problem) is nothing but a jackassery. I'm sure anyone with half a head can agree that even a full 1.2 km trench along the ORP (which is not what the City is suggesting) would be less of a visual or physical obstruction than a at grade train on Richmond. And we can't forget the whole point of the O-Train expansion; a full fledged, fully grade separated rapid transit system that stretches as far as financially possible. It's not fair to jeopardize the chances of other communities getting LRT.
Completely agree. This point was brought up by Hobbs in the media way back when, but clearly residents have spoken...in favour of their comfort over other neighbourhoods possibly losing their future transit.

Some of the homes near Dominion station (and throughout Westboro) go for nearly a million dollars and have three SUVs in the driveway. Those people clearly don't take transit, which is their right - to each their own. But many people do. This is turning into something of a class divide battle, which doesn't bode well for a city-building project meant to benefit people in all areas.

There's been plenty of talk in the past year from people near the line (going all the way to downtown) about how the LRT only benefits commuters from THE SUBURBS. I even read urban 'activist' Diane Holmes making this assertion. I guess the areas around Lincoln Fields, Baseline and Bayshore, which would benefit greatly, are now the hinterland?

Do we keep those lower-income (but heavy transit user) areas perpetually mired in the 1970s because some commuters from Barrhaven will be on the train? This attitude stinks.
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  #53  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2014, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
God damn it, it would be cheaper to fly every single west-of-Westboro NIMBY, every NCC board member and every councillor to Calgary and Edmonton and put them up for a week so they can see what LRT actually looks like than continue on with this nonsense.

Whether on the CPR corridor or on Richmond, everyone seems to have it in their heads that LRT is a "barrier" and needs to be a barrier.
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  #54  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2014, 7:31 PM
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There's been plenty of talk in the past year from people near the line (going all the way to downtown) about how the LRT only benefits commuters from THE SUBURBS. I even read urban 'activist' Diane Holmes making this assertion. I guess the areas around Lincoln Fields, Baseline and Bayshore, which would benefit greatly, are now the hinterland?

Actually, there are very few older urban residential areas that will be directly served by the currently-building project, and even fewer in the extensions that are one the table for any time this century.

The suburbs will get real mass transit before the vast majority of central neighbourhoods will. Central residents will have to make do with buses until well into the 2100s.
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  #55  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2014, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ac888yow View Post
It isn't about anyone's view or any single stretch per se. It's about opening the door to development, which would set a precedent. Today it's this stretch, tomorrow it's another (for whatever purpose). All of this needs to be very carefully considered.

I'm no fan of the NCC, but the parkway is one thing that they actually do well. Some may not think it's stunning, but I do. Besides, what are we arguing about? This isn't even the best route for the western extension. If it were, I'd be on board with the "build it" crowd.
What's so hot about the parkway?
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  #56  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2014, 11:46 PM
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Completely agree. This point was brought up by Hobbs in the media way back when, but clearly residents have spoken...in favour of their comfort over other neighbourhoods possibly losing their future transit.

Some of the homes near Dominion station (and throughout Westboro) go for nearly a million dollars and have three SUVs in the driveway. Those people clearly don't take transit, which is their right - to each their own. But many people do. This is turning into something of a class divide battle, which doesn't bode well for a city-building project meant to benefit people in all areas.

There's been plenty of talk in the past year from people near the line (going all the way to downtown) about how the LRT only benefits commuters from THE SUBURBS. I even read urban 'activist' Diane Holmes making this assertion. I guess the areas around Lincoln Fields, Baseline and Bayshore, which would benefit greatly, are now the hinterland?

Do we keep those lower-income (but heavy transit user) areas perpetually mired in the 1970s because some commuters from Barrhaven will be on the train? This attitude stinks.
The bolder statement I agree with: the people who oppose LRT near them in this area tend to not be the people who will actually be using it. They are the people who own cars and drive everywhere, getting adamant if we reduced driving or parking where they want to go. Their concern is only themselves, and not how other people would be negatively affected. That isn't to say I think the parkway is the best option: I'd rather see the LRT replace the #2 and go down that entire stretch, even if it means closing it to cars.

However, I am one of the people who thinks this LRT benefits the suburbs more than it benefits the urban core, as it's a much faster and more comfortable way of getting people from far-flung regions downtown faster, completely bypassing key commercial and residential districts. If LRT were built for the city, we would see Richmond-Wellington-Somerset, Bank, Rideau-Montreal at least with LRT to make it easier for people to get around. But we don't see this or any transit plans for the core (I think we've seen services diminished even). Other than going to Algonquin, I have no use of the transitway as it's out of my way and doesn't take me anywhere I want to go faster. The #2 and #14 take me downtown and to uOttawa/ Rideau faster than walking to Tunney's or Bayview and then catching the bus to go a few stops.

For example, in Hintonburg-Civic Hospital, I have no way of getting to the Glebe or OOS from where I live. We used to have the 85 go down Carling to Bronson, but it's been detoured as of a few years ago to travel down Preston. Unless I drive (or risk my life cycling) I'd either be walking 30 minutes or so, or going down to Bank in Centretown to transfer to a packed #7. So, I choose not to go there as it's not worth the extra effort.

With the current LRT at Bayview, it's a also a journey for me to get there (20-25 minutes walking with bad access), and if I weren't at Algonquin I wouldn't be taking that route.

But if we were building transit for the city, we'd see LRT going right through neighbourhoods and along their commercial streets, connecting those places to other urban neighbourhoods for the easy flow of people. This would benefit the city so much! But instead we're replacing the BRT that serves public servants coming from their homes in the suburbs downtown with a train to speed them up, with the line bypassing the important neighbourhoods where people live.

Sure, Baseline is important for LRT because of Algonquin College (and it would be a waste if LRT didn't go there, seeing as Baseline has already been prepared for it), but that's about all extending the line would be good for, unless we're including the fact that people in Nepean and Barrhaven use that station to get downtown. As well, Lincoln Fields/ Britannia is still a suburb, despite it having highrises and low-income people. It's just not the suburbs that were former municipalities.

In any case, it's all been said before about the NCC and these people opposing it. The linear park and Rochester Field should not be torn up to please a few unimportant people at the expense of the rest of the city.
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  #57  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2014, 1:31 AM
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The bolder statement I agree with: the people who oppose LRT near them in this area tend to not be the people who will actually be using it. They are the people who own cars and drive everywhere, getting adamant if we reduced driving or parking where they want to go. Their concern is only themselves, and not how other people would be negatively affected. That isn't to say I think the parkway is the best option: I'd rather see the LRT replace the #2 and go down that entire stretch, even if it means closing it to cars.

However, I am one of the people who thinks this LRT benefits the suburbs more than it benefits the urban core, as it's a much faster and more comfortable way of getting people from far-flung regions downtown faster, completely bypassing key commercial and residential districts. If LRT were built for the city, we would see Richmond-Wellington-Somerset, Bank, Rideau-Montreal at least with LRT to make it easier for people to get around. But we don't see this or any transit plans for the core (I think we've seen services diminished even). Other than going to Algonquin, I have no use of the transitway as it's out of my way and doesn't take me anywhere I want to go faster. The #2 and #14 take me downtown and to uOttawa/ Rideau faster than walking to Tunney's or Bayview and then catching the bus to go a few stops.

For example, in Hintonburg-Civic Hospital, I have no way of getting to the Glebe or OOS from where I live. We used to have the 85 go down Carling to Bronson, but it's been detoured as of a few years ago to travel down Preston. Unless I drive (or risk my life cycling) I'd either be walking 30 minutes or so, or going down to Bank in Centretown to transfer to a packed #7. So, I choose not to go there as it's not worth the extra effort.

With the current LRT at Bayview, it's a also a journey for me to get there (20-25 minutes walking with bad access), and if I weren't at Algonquin I wouldn't be taking that route.

But if we were building transit for the city, we'd see LRT going right through neighbourhoods and along their commercial streets, connecting those places to other urban neighbourhoods for the easy flow of people. This would benefit the city so much! But instead we're replacing the BRT that serves public servants coming from their homes in the suburbs downtown with a train to speed them up, with the line bypassing the important neighbourhoods where people live.

Sure, Baseline is important for LRT because of Algonquin College (and it would be a waste if LRT didn't go there, seeing as Baseline has already been prepared for it), but that's about all extending the line would be good for, unless we're including the fact that people in Nepean and Barrhaven use that station to get downtown. As well, Lincoln Fields/ Britannia is still a suburb, despite it having highrises and low-income people. It's just not the suburbs that were former municipalities.

In any case, it's all been said before about the NCC and these people opposing it. The linear park and Rochester Field should not be torn up to please a few unimportant people at the expense of the rest of the city.
We need a municipal government who's first order of business is teaching people to have some civic pride and care about each other, rather than making every single decision an individual thing. We need communities that work together, and we need people to understand the effects of their actions. If we could build a foundation like that, I think public infrastructure would take on a whole new life in Ottawa, and people might be willing to sacrifice something for it. Until the culture changes though, we're going to have problems like this.
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2014, 2:16 AM
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The linear park and Rochester Field should not be torn up to please a few unimportant people at the expense of the rest of the city.
The "linear park" was a transit right of way before it was a linear park. Some would even say that the streetcar tracks should not have been torn up for a linear park.
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2014, 2:34 AM
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However, I am one of the people who thinks this LRT benefits the suburbs more than it benefits the urban core, as it's a much faster and more comfortable way of getting people from far-flung regions downtown faster, completely bypassing key commercial and residential districts. If LRT were built for the city, we would see Richmond-Wellington-Somerset, Bank, Rideau-Montreal at least with LRT to make it easier for people to get around. But we don't see this or any transit plans for the core (I think we've seen services diminished even). Other than going to Algonquin, I have no use of the transitway as it's out of my way and doesn't take me anywhere I want to go faster. The #2 and #14 take me downtown and to uOttawa/ Rideau faster than walking to Tunney's or Bayview and then catching the bus to go a few stops.

For example, in Hintonburg-Civic Hospital, I have no way of getting to the Glebe or OOS from where I live. We used to have the 85 go down Carling to Bronson, but it's been detoured as of a few years ago to travel down Preston. Unless I drive (or risk my life cycling) I'd either be walking 30 minutes or so, or going down to Bank in Centretown to transfer to a packed #7. So, I choose not to go there as it's not worth the extra effort.
Living near downtown in various areas for years, I have bitched and moaned on this forum for some time about the lack of inner-city neighbourhood connectivity through transit. It totally sucks in Ottawa for that, but that is a problem that - while important - is separate from what we're discussing here.

You're making it sound as if Britannia (connected by streetcar to downtown 114 years ago) is somewhere near Kaladar, Ontario. It's inside the greenbelt. Subway lines in Toronto and Montreal go great distances, further than downtown to Lincoln Fields/Britannia, anyway.

People who live in the high-density developments in such areas still pay the same transit fare as those living in the wonderful areas that are biking distance to Parliament Hill/downtown. Their transit dollars currently help fund the Transitway, and would continue to fund the LRT.

Barrhaven people have buses on a Transitway first built in 2009(?), and will have buses for years or decades to come. The only issue out there is one dodgy railway crossing; for the most part, the Transitway through Barrhaven is grade-separated and fairly rapid. No one is crying out for trains out there. Let's not get into street-by-street geographical divides like we're 14th generation Londoners.
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2014, 2:39 AM
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We need a municipal government who's first order of business is teaching people to have some civic pride and care about each other, rather than making every single decision an individual thing. We need communities that work together, and we need people to understand the effects of their actions. If we could build a foundation like that, I think public infrastructure would take on a whole new life in Ottawa, and people might be willing to sacrifice something for it. Until the culture changes though, we're going to have problems like this.
I would love to see this, though I very much doubt how it could ever be, especially in Ottawa.

I was concerned after the election when the new Somerset councillor talked of making an 'urban bloc' (or something) of downtown councillors to advocate for their own interests. It struck me as the wrong thing to do and say, especially at this critical time in the city's history.

Once upon a time the Region decided the city's transit needs. Now it's councillors looking out for their futurevotes by placating squeaky wheels in their community and elevating those concerns over the needs of everyone else in the city.

I'd like to see what happens if/when this urban bloc (made up of Kitchissippi, Somerset, Capital and Rideau-Vanier, I assume) decides that LRT money would be better spent in the downtown, while those in Bay ward, Gloucester-Southgate and another in the east can beg for change.
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