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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 2, 2011, 4:53 PM
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I know this house, my brother-in-law lived here for a couple of years just after finishing law school. He was heavily burdened with student loans at the time and junior lawyers aren't paid particularly well. They had the top floor apartment where the balconies are.

He lives in the west end now........
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2011, 12:40 AM
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Based on what? Even Mr. Mason notes that half of his respondents consider my view to be correct. The others likely did not grow up in the area and do not know of what they speak.

Ignorance of something does not make that view correct.
Well, we can agree that the sky is blue, can we not?

Anyway, this is what they said:

If you lived say up by Lady Hammond, you said "the North End starts at North Street." Some in the far north, up around Leeds Street, would even say "the North End starts at Almon Street."

But most people who live between Cogswell and North say "this is the North End" though, to be fair, I'd say about 20% of the folks I talked to when I was involved with the North End Community Fair and the Gottingen Street Merchants Association said "this is the north part of Central Halifax".

The big bottom line is - it is all the North End to somebody...

We need to have a debate about neighbourhoods and have official names like other cities.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2011, 1:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Waye Mason View Post
Well, we can agree that the sky is blue, can we not?

Anyway, this is what they said:

If you lived say up by Lady Hammond, you said "the North End starts at North Street." Some in the far north, up around Leeds Street, would even say "the North End starts at Almon Street."

But most people who live between Cogswell and North say "this is the North End" though, to be fair, I'd say about 20% of the folks I talked to when I was involved with the North End Community Fair and the Gottingen Street Merchants Association said "this is the north part of Central Halifax".

The big bottom line is - it is all the North End to somebody...

We need to have a debate about neighbourhoods and have official names like other cities.
We have South St....in the south and North St....in the north and then for some reason in between we have West St.??? Where is East St?
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2011, 3:28 AM
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We have South St....in the south and North St....in the north and then for some reason in between we have West St.??? Where is East St?
Somewhere in the harbour?

The area between Cornwallis and Cogswell is certainly being more integrated with the downtown, I bet it will be it will be considered downtown if Trinity, Drum site, and Citadel Hotel redevelopments happen.
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2011, 10:28 AM
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This is the North End to the vast majority of Haligonians.
Your technicality is too far.
There really isn't a "technical" answer to this.

What percentage is the "vast majority?" What percentage of Haligonians voted? Are these the same Haligonians that elected the mayor?
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 3, 2011, 10:29 AM
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Somewhere in the harbour?

The area between Cornwallis and Cogswell is certainly being more integrated with the downtown, I bet it will be it will be considered downtown if Trinity, Drum site, and Citadel Hotel redevelopments happen.
West Street wasn't in the West End. And the East End is Darmouth, I suppose... like how South Detroit is Windsor.

Before Cogswell and Scotia Square went in Gottingen was the main shopping street, and yes, I know some old folks used to call it "downtown."
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2012, 3:21 AM
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The North End starts at Cogswell according to my recollection, haing lived there from 1976 to 1991.
If I had grown up in the area north of North St., I likely would have the same bee in my bonnet as Mr. Keith. Who wants to be associated with THOSE people around Gottigen St!
But it`s still the north end. Central Halifax as I recall was somewhere from Robie and Windsor as far west as Connaught...the tree streets and so on.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2012, 1:11 PM
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The North End starts at Cogswell according to my recollection, haing lived there from 1976 to 1991.
If I had grown up in the area north of North St., I likely would have the same bee in my bonnet as Mr. Keith. Who wants to be associated with THOSE people around Gottigen St!
But it`s still the north end. Central Halifax as I recall was somewhere from Robie and Windsor as far west as Connaught...the tree streets and so on.
I'm sort of thinking that maybe the bee's not in your bonnet
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2012, 11:04 PM
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Growing up in the real North end, I used to take the trolley "downtown" to shop with my mom. We used to go to Gottingen St, which, at that time, was a thriving retail area, not the scary slum it is today. But the point is, when we were on that part of Gottingen, we were not in the North end, but in what was considered downtown.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2019, 9:17 PM
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Nice pics. I wouldn't say many of the pics looked that gritty though. The North end was much more gritty and run down in the 80s and early 90s. Still very nice pics.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 6:53 AM
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I remember going on a bus to the "north end" with a friend in the late 80s, and being a bit stunned that when he said "the north end", he meant Fort Needham, not Gottingen Street.

Then I went back to school at Leeds in 2013 and discovered there was an entire neighbourhood(s) I had never seen before. (And I finally knew what was over that hill I saw every time dad and I drove down "the Robie Street Extension".)

EDIT: I wouldn't really call Gottingen a "scary slum".

Last edited by pblaauw; Jan 15, 2019 at 6:55 AM. Reason: DEFENDING THE NORTH! *insert rally cry here*
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 9:54 PM
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Originally Posted by pblaauw View Post
I remember going on a bus to the "north end" with a friend in the late 80s, and being a bit stunned that when he said "the north end", he meant Fort Needham, not Gottingen Street.

Then I went back to school at Leeds in 2013 and discovered there was an entire neighbourhood(s) I had never seen before. (And I finally knew what was over that hill I saw every time dad and I drove down "the Robie Street Extension".)

EDIT: I wouldn't really call Gottingen a "scary slum".
Yeah definitely not a scary slum. I wouldn't call anywhere in the North end "a scary slum". LOL

Those back streets in and around Gottingen were pretty run down though. Not so bad these days but back in the 80s and 90s it definitely did look gritty and run down. Lots of drugs in the early 90s. Creighton and Gerrish was a notorious crack spot.

The area around Leeds? Is that where st stephens used to be? I went to Highland on Robie in the 80s. Mulgrave Park Housing complex had a bit of a bad rep back then. No idea what it's like now.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2019, 10:03 PM
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This is a bit of a tangent but I've always found it weird how poorly and inconsistently defined Halifax's urban neighbourhoods are. I haven't seen a lot of examples in other cities of the North End phenomenon, where a major district of a city has unclear boundaries that many people disagree on.

The South End is pretty vague too. Is Quinpool Road in the South End? Spring Garden Road? And how far does the West End go?

Peninsular Halifax needs a few extra neighbourhood definitions beyond what it has to describe the parts that are qualitatively different. Hollis and Morris for example is completely different from the deep South End on the other side of the railway tracks.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 1:32 AM
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This is a bit of a tangent but I've always found it weird how poorly and inconsistently defined Halifax's urban neighbourhoods are. I haven't seen a lot of examples in other cities of the North End phenomenon, where a major district of a city has unclear boundaries that many people disagree on.

The South End is pretty vague too. Is Quinpool Road in the South End? Spring Garden Road? And how far does the West End go?

Peninsular Halifax needs a few extra neighbourhood definitions beyond what it has to describe the parts that are qualitatively different. Hollis and Morris for example is completely different from the deep South End on the other side of the railway tracks.

I always considered everything south of Quinpool the South End. North End everything north of the Commons and the citadel between Barrington and Windsor. West End is what ever is left over down towards the West End Mall.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter. The South and North End are the only cool parts of Halifax. LOL (JK)
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 2:21 AM
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^ That's basically how I've always seen it and how most in my peer group would define the "Ends" (ie born in the 80s or later). It is clear that the boundaries have changed over the years but in the present-day these are logical ways to define things (the area between Quinpool and Jubilee for example seems to "fit" much better with the South end in terms of overall look/feel, even though this was historically considered part of the West End).

I've never heard anyone refer to a specific neighbourhood called "Central Halifax" in the contemporary age except on this thread. I'm not sure when this would have fallen out of common use.

I would also not think of Gottingen as slum-like at all (in 2019... even in 2000 it was quite different). It is definitely still the non-conformist, countercultural hotspot though and is the main part of town that might be a bit unsettling to the very straight-laced. There are certainly neighbourhoods in HRM that feel poorer/bleaker than this one and neighbourhoods that are in overall worse repair as far as the physical environment goes. But there is still a certain in-your-face grittiness that is hard to express in photos of buildings - it's expressed more in the attitude and style of the people you'd meet there, or the nature and aesthetic of the businesses, etc. I would say it's neither slummy nor really gritty in a conventional sense - it's more "seedy" than anything at this point IMO.

I guess it depends on how you'd define these things - there are still things like a large homeless shelter and a needle exchange in this area; I don't think an area is automatically a "slum" or "gritty" just because they have these things though, and the users of these services tend to keep to themselves and make up maybe 5% of the people you'd encounter in the area.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 2:56 AM
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^ That's basically how I've always seen it and how most in my peer group would define the "Ends" (ie born in the 80s or later). It is clear that the boundaries have changed over the years but in the present-day these are logical ways to define things (the area between Quinpool and Jubilee for example seems to "fit" much better with the South end in terms of overall look/feel, even though this was historically considered part of the West End).
I think these are really districts, not neighbourhoods. Quinpool and the South End are a good illustration of this. The two sides of Quinpool are clearly not separate neighbourhoods that serve different residents. In most cities, Quinpool Road would be considered a neighbourhood and there might be some name for the area that encompasses Quinpool Road plus the residential areas served by its locally-oriented shops.

I think it actually makes more sense to define a West End that is anchored by Quinpool.

If a visitor were to come to Halifax and ask where to go to visit the main part of the "South End" there would be no real answer. Some people say that Spring Garden Road is the main street of the South End but that view is about 50 years out of date. Spring Garden is part of downtown now.

There's nothing wrong with these larger districts but I think it's bad that the neighbourhood identities are so weak. The best example of a clearly-defined neighbourhood is probably the Hydrostone. Halifax has some apparently completely nameless neighbourhoods, like the Inglis/Barrington/Victoria/Queen/Fenwick area. People have no way to talk about it other than by talking about streets.

If Toronto were like Halifax, Parkdale would be called "that area down around the west end of Queen Street past the railway tracks" and everything west of Yonge would be called the "West End".
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 3:45 AM
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The best example of a clearly-defined neighbourhood is probably the Hydrostone.
Even the Hydrostone I'm not so sure about. Many people consider the Hydrostone to be just those ~12 blocks with the distinctive rowhouses and boulevards. Personally I'd consider it to be the area bounded by Young, Novalea, Duffus and Robie. I have friends who have lived "in the Hydrostone" east of Novalea. I'm not sure why there is so much difficulty here in delineating neighbourhoods that everyone can agree on but I'm also not sure it's really possible to do at this point without the city unilaterally imposing whatever they decide on (ie they could do some sort of public consultation but I think there would be enough stubborn disagreement that nothing could really come of it)

I've thought for a while that it would make sense to view things in terms of "villages" - "Quinpool Village" and "Inglis Village" (or "Barrington South Village", or whatever) would be logical and fairly intuitive ways of grouping the areas you mentioned and wouldn't infringe on any "established" names. Maybe this sounds too Toronto though?

I agree that it fundamentally isn't very useful to divide the Peninsula into the Leeds Street + Gottingen/Cunard section, the Inglis/Barrington + Belmont-on-the-Arm section, and the Quinpool + Bayers Road Shopping Centre section. Each "End" very much has an old and a new, an inner and an outer, an urban and a suburban.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 12:32 PM
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I would also not think of Gottingen as slum-like at all (in 2019... even in 2000 it was quite different). It is definitely still the non-conformist, countercultural hotspot though and is the main part of town that might be a bit unsettling to the very straight-laced.
I guess I am very straight-laced then. The stretch of Gottingen from Charles St to Cornwallis is quite awful, one or two new builds notwithstanding.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
Even the Hydrostone I'm not so sure about. Many people consider the Hydrostone to be just those ~12 blocks with the distinctive rowhouses and boulevards. Personally I'd consider it to be the area bounded by Young, Novalea, Duffus and Robie. I have friends who have lived "in the Hydrostone" east of Novalea. I'm not sure why there is so much difficulty here in delineating neighbourhoods that everyone can agree on but I'm also not sure it's really possible to do at this point without the city unilaterally imposing whatever they decide on (ie they could do some sort of public consultation but I think there would be enough stubborn disagreement that nothing could really come of it)
I can see using Hydrostone to refer to streets to the west, toward Robie,but east of Isleville you have the natural break of Fort Needham, which severs things geographically. East of Novalea feels a like a whole different area.

As for the eternal North End debate, I think it’s in the realm of pedantry. The North End starts north of Cogswell now. Pre-interchange, when the area was more connected to downtown (or WAS part of downtown) it would have been different, but every single person I know refers to this area as the North End. It feels completely different from the area to the south, has different demographics, and a very different physical character. It may not be historically accurate, but the boundaries have shifted in people’s minds, especially younger people.

Last edited by Drybrain; Jan 17, 2019 at 4:29 AM.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2019, 1:42 PM
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As a resident in the "north end" for two decades now, I have always been confused by the use of the term for everything north of citadel hill. It would be nice if we started to refer to the neighbourhoods in the deep north end by their old names. Like Richmond which was pretty much destroyed by the Halifax explosion.

The whole area is actually quite diverse with local bars, stores and public spaces that are used by their immediate neighbourhoods. The south end by comparison appears to be more monolithic.

Waye Mason had complied a map of all of the various neighbourhoods in the city by their historic names before he was elected to council. But I can't seem to find the website anymore.
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