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  #221  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 9:45 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Je connais des Américains et des Britanniques qui parlent un excellent français (ou espagnol) mais c'est assez rare. Et pour la langue écrite c'est encore plus rare.

Notre ami muppet était sûrement premier de classe dans son cours de français.
Facile de trouver des Américains qui parlent bien français (si on considère ça du français... certains ne seront pas d'accord avec le qualificatif que j'ai utilisé, aucun doute), suffit de savoir où chercher.
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  #222  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 2:58 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Nah, they still look plenty stupid. They just don't understand the snide comments being made about them as they make their complex Starbucks orders loudly in English to bewildered baristas.
Well, that looks stupid because it is stupid. But it's still not the same. There is a classist component to being a native English speaker, or even one that speaks English fluently. People that migrate from non-English speaking countries to other countries without knowing the local language will get treated very much like Americans treat Latin Mexicans and central Americans.
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  #223  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 9:29 PM
IWant2BeInSTL IWant2BeInSTL is offline
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Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion View Post
St. Louis certainly has some neighborhoods with European-esque architecture, but they still come off looking Midwestern in the end whether it's the density or the wideness of the city streets. For the most European looking neighborhood I'll go ahead and put forward Lafayette Square:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6157...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6187...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6160...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6192...7i16384!8i8192

Soulard would be my second choice:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6042...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6074...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6069...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6082...7i16384!8i8192

Soulard is far bigger than Lafayette Square, so there's more of it. St. Louis is big on essentially micro-neighborhoods.



To me the West Loop looks like what downtown St. Louis will look like once it's fully revitalized. Lots of brick midrises here.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6322...7i16384!8i8192

For a real gut punch though, here's what downtown St. Louis used to look like back in the day:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6305...7i16384!8i8192

The area is called Laclede's Landing, and it's basically all that's left from the Arch grounds getting demolished, the highways going in, the streets getting widened across the city, etc.
appreciate the STL love, Emprise. personally, I don't think there is much in the Midwest that feels truly "European" either (aside from churches that were explicitly modeled after European analogs) though there are certainly parts that approach it. STL architecture was heavily influenced by its largely German heritage and abundance of red clay, but as you pointed out in mentioning Laclede's landing, much (half? most?) has been lost. (There's an entire thread devoted to the destruction of the STL riverfront, which was once the largest US cast-iron district outside of NYC: https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=162521.) presently, i would say that Soulard (and its formerly connected neighbor LaSalle Park) is the most European-feeling part of STL, or at least it has a sort-of swampy "old-world" feel to it, with streets about as narrow as you'll find in the Midwest. a number of the surrounding neighborhoods share architectural style and form with Soulard, but there's something about Soulard that is more authentic-feeling for some reason. i've seen historic aerials of STL, and some more recent, that give off an absolutely Dickensian vibe. from street level, though, it all feels solidly Midwestern—or maybe interior river city—to me.

Soulard:






Last edited by IWant2BeInSTL; Jul 20, 2020 at 10:49 PM.
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  #224  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2020, 11:36 PM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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In the second picture, downtown is behind us...?

Some of these buildings look like typical Federal style (early 1800s).
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  #225  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 1:10 AM
IWant2BeInSTL IWant2BeInSTL is offline
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^ yes, the 2nd and 3rd pics are taken roughly from the same location—the 2nd facing south and the 3rd facing north. the 1st pic is taken from a location just slightly east of the 3rd pic. the steeple on the far left in the 1st pic is on the far right in the 3rd pic.

STL has very little Federal Style left (never had a ton to begin with). Federals don't have mansard roofs. Most of the buildings pictured are Second Empire, i think.
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  #226  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 1:38 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Well, that looks stupid because it is stupid. But it's still not the same. There is a classist component to being a native English speaker, or even one that speaks English fluently. People that migrate from non-English speaking countries to other countries without knowing the local language will get treated very much like Americans treat Latin Mexicans and central Americans.
I’ve lived in Japan since 2002 and until COVID and the PRC’s new laws spent combined years conducting business throughout APAC. Native English speakers who cannot make the effort of learning basic, day to day local expressions get shit on even harder than those who aren’t native English speakers. Everyone resents the arrogance and presumptiveness of it all. At least the Russians and French in Tokyo who can’t speak Japanese don’t presume to yell coffee orders in Russian or French. It’s always the American who rapid-fires off some iced Ristretto, 10 shot, venti, with breve, 5 pump vanilla, 4 Splenda, and poured, not shaken-type order in English so loud all the heads turn.

Look, I don’t speak Bahasa or Korean, but I can order a coffee or a whiskey in each when I’m working from Jakarta or Seoul. And it took all of 2 minutes to nail that down with a Google Translate lookup at the airport.
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  #227  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 1:52 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL View Post
Most of the buildings pictured are Second Empire, i think.
Of course they are.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL View Post
STL has very little Federal Style left (never had a ton to begin with).
Actually, from a quick Street View exploration, it appears the neighborhoods that were the correct age for that style were too close to downtown to have survived:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6201...7i13312!8i6656

What's further away (Soulard, etc.) is a bit newer (mid/late 1800s).
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  #228  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 2:25 AM
IWant2BeInSTL IWant2BeInSTL is offline
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^ i think that's pretty accurate. the building in that street view is the Field House Museum: https://fieldhousemuseum.org/. it's the only remaining member of Walsh's row, which was razed in the early 1930s:


image source


image source

here's what the area around Walsh's row used to look like around 1875, from Compton & Dry's revolutionary Pictorial St. Louis (https://www.loc.gov/item/rc01001392/):


link to image

there's another old Federalist (Federalist-Italianate?) house turned museum downtown as well. The Campbell House Museum is the only extant member of one of St. Louis' first private streets, Lucas Place: http://www.campbellhousemuseum.org/


image soruce

Lucas Place from a colorized version of Compton & Dry:

image souce


http://www.campbellhousemuseum.org/2...is-gilded-age/


the amount of architecture that St. Louis has lost is mind-boggling.
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  #229  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 3:03 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
In the second picture, downtown is behind us...?

Some of these buildings look like typical Federal style (early 1800s).
The mansard roofs, though, are not Federal. They became most popular in the second half of the 19th century which is why you see them on so much Victorian architecture but also French Empire style etc.
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  #230  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 3:20 AM
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Would it be right to say that if St. Louis still retained a chunk of its building stock it would be comparable to New Orleans and Montreal in feel? I’m getting strong European vibes from these older pictures. Such a grand city that should rightfully be the Gateway to the West.
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  #231  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 2:46 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
I’ve lived in Japan since 2002 and until COVID and the PRC’s new laws spent combined years conducting business throughout APAC. Native English speakers who cannot make the effort of learning basic, day to day local expressions get shit on even harder than those who aren’t native English speakers. Everyone resents the arrogance and presumptiveness of it all. At least the Russians and French in Tokyo who can’t speak Japanese don’t presume to yell coffee orders in Russian or French. It’s always the American who rapid-fires off some iced Ristretto, 10 shot, venti, with breve, 5 pump vanilla, 4 Splenda, and poured, not shaken-type order in English so loud all the heads turn.

Look, I don’t speak Bahasa or Korean, but I can order a coffee or a whiskey in each when I’m working from Jakarta or Seoul. And it took all of 2 minutes to nail that down with a Google Translate lookup at the airport.
And they still treat those arrogant Americans better than they treat African immigrants in Tokyo.
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  #232  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 4:50 PM
IWant2BeInSTL IWant2BeInSTL is offline
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Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post
Would it be right to say that if St. Louis still retained a chunk of its building stock it would be comparable to New Orleans and Montreal in feel? I’m getting strong European vibes from these older pictures. Such a grand city that should rightfully be the Gateway to the West.
i mean, it has retained a "chunk" but that chunk mostly consists of the younger (mid 1800s–early 1900s) streetcar suburbs. the older stuff that ringed downtown is pretty much gone. even if that stuff were still around, i think it would feel more like Center City Philly than New Orleans or Montreal due to the architectural styles. (and now I'm realizing that what i said earlier about St. Louis never having much in the way of Federal style probably isn't true. most of what circled downtown was probably Federal—or at least not Second Empire.) if the riverfront had not been destroyed, i think it would feel like a much larger version of Savannah's riverfront:


image source

Last edited by IWant2BeInSTL; Jul 21, 2020 at 5:17 PM.
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  #233  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2020, 5:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
I’ve lived in Japan since 2002 and until COVID and the PRC’s new laws spent combined years conducting business throughout APAC. Native English speakers who cannot make the effort of learning basic, day to day local expressions get shit on even harder than those who aren’t native English speakers. Everyone resents the arrogance and presumptiveness of it all. At least the Russians and French in Tokyo who can’t speak Japanese don’t presume to yell coffee orders in Russian or French. It’s always the American who rapid-fires off some iced Ristretto, 10 shot, venti, with breve, 5 pump vanilla, 4 Splenda, and poured, not shaken-type order in English so loud all the heads turn.

Look, I don’t speak Bahasa or Korean, but I can order a coffee or a whiskey in each when I’m working from Jakarta or Seoul. And it took all of 2 minutes to nail that down with a Google Translate lookup at the airport.
Before I went to Japan for an academic conference years ago, I crash coursed on basic Japanese vocabulary/ phrases to the point that my colleagues would ask me how to say certain things when we were out and about.
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