Commuter Rail/Regional Rail in Canada

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, are you saying that a commuter rail system, using heavy rail cars, timed for the commuters is a bad idea?

In most cities in Canada, without huge investment and compared to other investments in transit that could be made, yes absolutely.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

Does Ottawa at least have decent transit access to Gatineau Park? That city is always a bit of a grey area for me.

You can take one city bus from downtown Ottawa to a few entrance points in the southernmost portion of Gatineau Park.

A decent-sized wedge of Gatineau Park cuts through the central-western part of the city (formerly western Hull) all the way to the Ottawa River (or almost - within a few hundred metres). And there are bus stops in a few locations on the edges.

But public transportation is virtually non-existent within the park itself, and also to the most popular access points which are a bit further north like Old Chelsea (where Meech Lake is, among other things) and also further north in Masham (La Pêche).

The one exception is shuttle buses they run during the peak autumn colours season, when they close the parkways to private vehicles for a few weeks. The traffic was just too insane.

But aside from that my guess is that virtually no one accesses Gatineau Park for recreational purposes on public transportation.

[Aylmer]

It's not uncommon to see people on the 30-series buses dressed for a hike and headed to the Cégep to start from there.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Do you know what existing ROW is really cheap to run transit vehicles on? Roads.

However, even if we limit the vehicles to trains, then many cities disagree. For example, Calgary has some rail ROWs, but instead they built new ones because they actually would provide good transit to places people want to go. The red line even runs beside a railway, but it was still a better option to build a separate system.

Operating expenses for vehicles are cheap on roads because roads are subsidized.

Railroads other than Via are generally unsubsidized.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Operating expenses for vehicles are cheap on roads because roads are subsidized.

Railroads other than Via are generally unsubsidized.

Irrelevant really. It doesn't change the fact the ROW to run buses is free for the operator, whereas a rail line would be very expensive.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

It's not uncommon to see people on the 30-series buses dressed for a hike and headed to the Cégep to start from there.

For hiking, I can see that. The Relais Plein Air du Parc de la Gatineau is accessible by bus I know.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Please define high quality. The way I see it, it is a substandard system due to the limitations on how many people it can move.

That criticism doesn't make sense to me. Every system in every city has limitations on how many people it can move. What matters is that a system has the capacity to move the number of people it's being asked to move. The fact that a city, which is small to medium size on a global scale, has lower capacity than you'll find in large cities is a feature rather than a bug because it allows smaller cities to afford a more extensive system that otherwise might be too costly. Yes it will eventually need to be expanded as the city grows but there's nothing wrong with that, unlike asking a 2.5 million city to afford the transit system fit for a 5 million city which is completely unreasonable. The Skytrain system already has a route length greater than the Toronto subway and Montreal metro and is still being expanded with planning for the Broadway and Langley extensions pushing forward.

I also don't think it would be terribly difficult to expand the downtown capacity. The Expo line could be extended east past Waterfront station either elevated along the rail corridor or underground below Cordova or Powell before dipping south to VCC-Clark. The Expo line could be made into a loop while the Millennium line would run through downtown with one terminus being in Surrey (or by that time Langley) and the other in Coquitlam. This would be similar to how the Yonge line runs through downtown connecting two separate arms to the north and northwest. It would only require about 4km of new tunnel, elevated guideway, or a combination of the two. The future Broadway line would connect to both at VCC-Clark. This would be pretty cheap compared to a project like the DRL/Ontario line.

They could also choose the more expensive option of running east under Hastings until the exhibition site before heading south along the highway or Boundary Rd to provide better Skytrain service to the eastern part of the city. The current Millenium line service would head north at Gilmour to follow the new corridor into downtown and the current alignment west of Gilmour would become part of the Broadway line. However, I'd probably just go with the former 4km option. Either way, it isn't like the system is somehow irreparably crippled by capacity constraints. Reasonable investment can easily expand the system just as it can with most other systems.

Something similar can also be done with the Canada line by twinning it with a mostly elevated service along the Arbutus corridor. The Canada line currently branches at the end serving both the airport and Richmond centre. This could be disentangled with the current Canada line serving the airport branch and the Arbutus line serving Richmond. There would be a transfer point at Bridgeport where riders could switch between routes. The Arbutus route could tunnel under False creek between the Burrard and Granville bridges providing a stop on Granville Island before following Burrard St with stops at Pacific, Nelson, Burrard, and Waterfront with the last two being interchange points. Regardless of the specifics, this would provide higher order transit to more of the city while offering additional redundancy and route options.

The takeaway being, the idea that a system that is providing excellent service to its community is somehow flawed because it will someday run out of capacity doesn't make sense.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

That criticism doesn't make sense to me. Every system in every city has limitations on how many people it can move. What matters is that a system has the capacity to move the number of people it's being asked to move. The fact that a city, which is small to medium size on a global scale, has lower capacity than you'll find in large cities is a feature rather than a bug because it allows smaller cities to afford a more extensive system that otherwise might be too costly. Yes it will eventually need to be expanded as the city grows but there's nothing wrong with that, unlike asking a 2.5 million city to afford the transit system fit for a 5 million city which is completely unreasonable. The Skytrain system already has a route length greater than the Toronto subway and Montreal metro and is still being expanded with planning for the Broadway and Langley extensions pushing forward.

I also don't think it would be terribly difficult to expand the downtown capacity. The Expo line could be extended east past Waterfront station either elevated along the rail corridor or underground below Cordova or Powell before dipping south to VCC-Clark. The Expo line could be made into a loop while the Millennium line would run through downtown with one terminus being in Surrey (or by that time Langley) and the other in Coquitlam. This would be similar to how the Yonge line runs through downtown connecting two separate arms to the north and northwest. It would only require about 4km of new tunnel, elevated guideway, or a combination of the two. The future Broadway line would connect to both at VCC-Clark. This would be pretty cheap compared to a project like the DRL/Ontario line.

They could also choose the more expensive option of running east under Hastings until the exhibition site before heading south along the highway or Boundary Rd to provide better Skytrain service to the eastern part of the city. The current Millenium line service would head north at Gilmour to follow the new corridor into downtown and the current alignment west of Gilmour would become part of the Broadway line. However, I'd probably just go with the former 4km option. Either way, it isn't like the system is somehow irreparably crippled by capacity constraints. Reasonable investment can easily expand the system just as it can with most other systems.

Something similar can also be done with the Canada line by twinning it with a mostly elevated service along the Arbutus corridor. The Canada line currently branches at the end serving both the airport and Richmond centre. This could be disentangled with the current Canada line serving the airport branch and the Arbutus line serving Richmond. There would be a transfer point at Bridgeport where riders could switch between routes. The Arbutus route could tunnel under False creek between the Burrard and Granville bridges providing a stop on Granville Island before following Burrard St with stops at Pacific, Nelson, Burrard, and Waterfront with the last two being interchange points. Regardless of the specifics, this would provide higher order transit to more of the city while offering additional redundancy and route options.

The takeaway being, the idea that a system that is providing excellent service to its community is somehow flawed because it will someday run out of capacity doesn't make sense.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Coqui...1631512800!3e3

WCE is 30 minutes. The Skytrain is 47 minutes. 17 minutes longer is not excellent service, it is horrible service. This is the problem, it seems better as it goes more places, but when it is a longer trip, it would be faster if there was an express service. I wonder what the E stands for in WCE....

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/Coqui...1631512800!3e3

WCE is 30 minutes. The Skytrain is 47 minutes. 17 minutes longer is not excellent service, it is horrible service. This is the problem, it seems better as it goes more places, but when it is a longer trip, it would be faster if there was an express service. I wonder what the E stands for in WCE....

You're just looking at the travel time between those two stations. But for someone coming from Coquitlam, the Evergreen line reaches further into the community meaning many people would have to travel further to reach that WCE stop, while the WCE only stops at Waterfront once it gets downtown meaning that many people will still need to transfer to get to their final destination while the skytrain has multiple downtowns stops getting many people closer without an additional transfer. Besides, trip time is not the only thing that defines service quality. Skytrain is many times more frequent, and gives access to significantly more stops and therefore more potential destinations and transfer opportunities (no, not everyone is going to the central business district). Even most frequent, all day commuter rail services only run every 15-20 which is a fraction of the frequency of Skytrain.

Sure, an expanded WCE would be better for some people just as some people already use it already. But Skytrain is better for many more people so calling it "horrible service" based on one carefully chosen metric while ignoring everything else is ridiculous.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

You're just looking at the travel time between those two stations. But for someone coming from Coquitlam, the Evergreen line reaches further into the community meaning many people would have to travel further to reach that WCE stop, while the WCE only stops at Waterfront once it gets downtown meaning that many people will still need to transfer to get to their final destination while the skytrain has multiple downtowns stops getting many people closer without an additional transfer. Besides, trip time is not the only thing that defines service quality. Skytrain is many times more frequent, and gives access to significantly more stops and therefore more potential destinations and transfer opportunities (no, not everyone is going to the central business district). Even most frequent, all day commuter rail services only run every 15-20 which is a fraction of the frequency of Skytrain.

Sure, an expanded WCE would be better for some people just as some people already use it already. But Skytrain is better for many more people so calling it "horrible service" based on one carefully chosen metric while ignoring everything else is ridiculous.

The problem with unadulterated expansion of the Skytrain is that they will soon be in the situation Line 1 in Toronto has been in for over a decade. That is why expansion of the WCE is important. It will reduce the chance of crush load being the normal for the line. They are not preparing for the future. They are building for the present, and for the past.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The problem with unadulterated expansion of the Skytrain is that they will soon be in the situation Line 1 in Toronto has been in for over a decade. That is why expansion of the WCE is important. It will reduce the chance of crush load being the normal for the line. They are not preparing for the future. They are building for the present, and for the past.

The Canada Line was the largest recent expansion of the Skytrain system and it didn't place greater stress on the Expo line did it? The only way that an "unadulterated expansion of the Skytrain" would result in what you're describing is if the system was only expanded by extending existing lines or building lines that feed into existing lines without building any new core routes. The type of scenario you're describing with Line 1 in Toronto isn't an issue with commuter rail and is actually an issue with a lack of expansion of the metro system. The city went through decades of growth without any system expansion near the centre of the city.

Although the potential solution to Expo line capacity that I mentioned in my first reply would basically double the number of people who could take that line into the city centre without building any new lines.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The Canada Line was the largest recent expansion of the Skytrain system and it didn't place greater stress on the Expo line did it? The only way that an "unadulterated expansion of the Skytrain" would result in what you're describing is if the system was only expanded by extending existing lines or building lines that feed into existing lines without building any new core routes. The type of scenario you're describing with Line 1 in Toronto isn't an issue with commuter rail and is actually an issue with a lack of expansion of the metro system. The city went through decades of growth without any system expansion near the centre of the city.

Although the potential solution to Expo line capacity that I mentioned in my first reply would basically double the number of people who could take that line into the city centre without building any new lines.

The Evergreen extension was the lat extension. Currently, they are building the expansion to UBC, stopping at Arbutus. These will only add to the burden of the lines, not relieve it. The further push will only add to it. The extension to Langley will also only add to it as well. All of this and Vancouver is only getting denser. A WCE to Langley, stopping at Skytrain stations would help with reducing the risk of getting to and staying at crush load.

Crush load is not a sign of success. It is a sign of failure. Failure to plan. Failure to built. Failure to care about the passengers.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Crush load is not a sign of success. It is a sign of failure. Failure to plan. Failure to built. Failure to care about the passengers.

Is WCE crush loaded? If it is, they should increase the price of the fares to the point where supply matches demand, and use the additional money to invest in capacity. Or borrow money to make the investment that will reap future returns.

And if it's not crush loaded, well...

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The Evergreen extension was the lat extension. Currently, they are building the expansion to UBC, stopping at Arbutus. These will only add to the burden of the lines, not relieve it. The further push will only add to it. The extension to Langley will also only add to it as well. All of this and Vancouver is only getting denser. A WCE to Langley, stopping at Skytrain stations would help with reducing the risk of getting to and staying at crush load.

Crush load is not a sign of success. It is a sign of failure. Failure to plan. Failure to built. Failure to care about the passengers.

I don't agree that a busy system is a sign of failure. It just means that the system needs to expand and improve as a city grows just like other aspects of a city's infrastructure. It needs new core routes similar to the Canada line or the 4km expansion that I proposed to add capacity.

In terms of WCE, I'm not sure I get what you're proposing. Langley isn't on the current route so are there actually any suitable tracks available to connect it to downtown? Based on what I'm seeing on the rail atlas it doesn't seem like it since there's only one route which is largely single track and which passes over the New Westminster Bridge, a single track swing bridge that's already constrained by rail congestion.

The thing with commuter rail is that it tends to be worth it when suitable tracks already exist and all you need is the trains and some simple stations. It's so cheap that it's worth it even if there's just peak period service. But if you need to greatly enhance corridor or build a new one to provide service where no suitable tracks exist, it's hard to justify the cost to operate for a couple hours of daily service. That's basically the case with WCE where there is peak period / direction service using existing CP tracks but none off peak.

So if the goal is just for WCE to take peak period strain off of the Skytrain system, I'm not sure how that's supposed to work since the WCE system is already doing that and peak-only service isn't enough to justify the huge cost to build a new corridor to Langley. Usually when there are major investments in commuter rail it's to expand it to offer service outside of peak but obviously that isn't going to do much for peak crush loads. If you were proposing frequent all day service to Langley then it might be worth investing in a new corridor but that's what's already happening with the Skytrain extension.

[manny_santos]

It's happening:

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...-go-for-london

There will be stops in St. Marys and Stratford at the existing VIA stations, so this will be very handy for people in both London and K-W going to Stratford, or for going between London and K-W or Guelph.

I doubt there will be high demand for the full London-Toronto run, but I'm guessing that's not their primary target.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

It's happening:

https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/...-go-for-london

There will be stops in St. Marys and Stratford at the existing VIA stations, so this will be very handy for people in both London and K-W going to Stratford, or for going between London and K-W or Guelph.

I doubt there will be high demand for the full London-Toronto run, but I'm guessing that's not their primary target.

It says at the bottom that Metrolinx is estimating 25,000 passengers a year from the three stations (Stratford, St. Mary's, and London). That's only about 500/week, so they clearly don't have high expectations for ridership.

At this point, I don't think this can be called a commuter route anymore, so this is quite unprecedented for Metrolinx. Will they rename the line the London line?

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The Evergreen extension was the lat extension. Currently, they are building the expansion to UBC, stopping at Arbutus. These will only add to the burden of the lines, not relieve it. The further push will only add to it. The extension to Langley will also only add to it as well. All of this and Vancouver is only getting denser. A WCE to Langley, stopping at Skytrain stations would help with reducing the risk of getting to and staying at crush load.

The Broadway extension will relieve the burden on the 99 B Line. Most of the current ridership gets off before Arbutus anyways, so Skytrain should have no issues carrying the load to campus.

The extension to Langley could be nicely complimented by a 2nd WCE line, but the Skytrain extension is still useful. There are many destinations between Langley and downtown Vancouver that will be easier to access via public transit because of the Skytrain extension including Metrotown, Brentwood, SFU, BCIT, UBC, DT New West, Broadway and Main, etc. Skytrain for the intermediate stops + WCE for the long-haul commute would make great partners. But if you can only afford one, choose the one with the highest utility.

[ssiguy]

Well it's about time for GO to London.

Needless to say 4 hours to Toronto is truly ridiculous but few will take it to Toronto Union as most will still go by VIA. It will however be very useful for KW to London as there is a lot of traffic between the 2 and needless to say these speeds and frequency will increase greatly over the coming years. Also it will be beneficial for Londoners going to Pearson.

One of the best things about it is that as the speed and frequency increases and hence ridership, they may begin more express service to Union ie London/KW/Pearson/Union and this would really make a dent in VIA's ridership. London is the 4th busiest station in the VIA system and VIA can't afford to lose that lucrative market forcing them to FINALLY put some real money into the London/Aldershot/Union route.

It may not be much but may turn out to be the kick in the ass VIA needs to improve it's SWO service lest they lose market share on the segment of VIA that requires the least amount of public subsidy in terms of passengers carried per km travelled in the entire system.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

The Broadway extension will relieve the burden on the 99 B Line. Most of the current ridership gets off before Arbutus anyways, so Skytrain should have no issues carrying the load to campus.

If I'm not mistaken they plan to double the length of the Millennium Line trains as well. Currently those miniature trains are mostly adequate for the existing line, but once it gets extended it'll need to be a full length train like on the Expo line. Fortunately the platforms on the existing line are large enough to accommodate Expo-length trains, unlike the Canada Line.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Well it's about time for GO to London.

Needless to say 4 hours to Toronto is truly ridiculous but few will take it to Toronto Union as most will still go by VIA. It will however be very useful for KW to London as there is a lot of traffic between the 2 and needless to say these speeds and frequency will increase greatly over the coming years. Also it will be beneficial for Londoners going to Pearson.

One of the best things about it is that as the speed and frequency increases and hence ridership, they may begin more express service to Union ie London/KW/Pearson/Union and this would really make a dent in VIA's ridership. London is the 4th busiest station in the VIA system and VIA can't afford to lose that lucrative market forcing them to FINALLY put some real money into the London/Aldershot/Union route.

It may not be much but may turn out to be the kick in the ass VIA needs to improve it's SWO service lest they lose market share on the segment of VIA that requires the least amount of public subsidy in terms of passengers carried per km travelled in the entire system.

As far as I know, there are multiple companies that own the track this will run on, at least from London to Kitchener, and the track doesn't support a very high speed. Even the VIA train on this route takes 3.5 hours to Toronto. I don't know what kind of demand the route needs to show to justify spending the money the upgrade the track, but I don't think one train a day each way is going to show the potential this route potentially has to justify the investment. Plus, what are the seats like on GO now? Been a while, but I remember it basically like being on a city bus. Can't imagine spending hours sitting on them.