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  #1081  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 4:44 PM
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Just for the record, Kellogg's (Canada) was based in London (Ontario), and their sole factory was in the said city. It shuttered about 8 years ago, and has moved production to Thailand.
https://london.ctvnews.ca/timeline-k...ndon-1.1583591

People that complain about bilingual packaging are idiots. People that complain about people that complain about bilingual packaging are wasting their time on losers who represent a comparatively small and shrinking component of the population (likewise for those that complain about having to speak French in a French-speaking province..no duh!). People have largely moved on. The fat English sales lady at Eaton's died many years ago.

Unfortunately, one cannot say the same about bigotry towards (other) ethnic minorities, which, after apparently declining for decades, has been rising substantially. But somehow this keeps getting dismissed as trivial. By the very same people that complain about people that complain about bilingual packaging.
Huh? Is anybody here complaining about bilingual packaging?

Arghh...
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  #1082  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 4:45 PM
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Isn't there a lot of freedom for people in Quebec to do what they want? I'm open to the idea of Quebec being an independent country but the biggest reasons why this seems far-fetched right now are (1) there are few well-articulated, powerful examples of things that Quebec residents want that other Canadians are preventing them from implementing and (2) it's objectively not popular with the electorate as a concept right now.

.
This is perhaps evolving into one of those cases where I am more of a messenger than I am sharing my own views.

I'd agree that Quebec already has a lot of the leeway it needs to build the type of society that it wants. "Most" of the leeway? Maybe...

Anyway it has quite a bit of leeway but my observation is that a lot of its imperatives and prerogatives even if they exist do get challenged and pushed back on. Another thing is that the world isn't static and so the language and culture issues of yesterday aren't the same as today - there are all sorts of ramifications in a globalized technological world and this means discussing and negotiating things with the feds who may or may not be open to talk.

Also true IMO is that often Quebec governments don't always even use all the leeway that they already have because they fear a backlash from someone or somewhere - internal or external.

For example they'd have the right to extend Bill 101 rules on French schooling to CEGEPs if they wanted to, but while the currently proposed language bill (96) will tinker with that a bit, it doesn't go nearly as far as the government's authority would allow it to.
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  #1083  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 4:52 PM
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^^lol, yeah them mooslims should be grateful that Quebec isn't banning hijabs in public spaces

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This is perhaps evolving into one of those cases where I am more of a messenger than I am sharing my own views.
sureeeeee....

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^^What happened to "A Canadian is a Canadian is a Canadian" lol. Surely you are pro-merit and against artificial quotas for black architects or chinese basketball players, or legislated multiculturalism

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Look who's getting "woketarian" all of a sudden
I've been warning you that I would.
In keeping with the spirit of the times, though, I am only applying the principles to my own in-group!
Nothing edgy about being a hypocrite lol, it was clear you are simply against SJW stuff if it means your in-group loses some advantage, and pro-SJW logic if your in-group had been disadvantaged in some way.
Because it's 2021.
once more? just so we all know where you stand
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  #1084  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 4:56 PM
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That's certainly not the way things are seen in Quebec. Though I guess this fact probably explains a bit of the Canadian conundrum in a nutshell.

I think you tinkered with the variables a bit by adding that the Québécois person is bilingual.

If you made the anglo NS fisherman bilingual, doesn't that change things too?
Fair enough, the titular NS fisherman might be from Arichat or Cheticamp and therefore bilingual, but, if so, his patois would be somewhat displeasing to the ear, probably containing elements of franglais and he would not be as approved of in the halls of power as a certified member of the Laurentian elite from Gatineau or Montreal.
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  #1085  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 5:03 PM
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Such as?
Demographics and the implications of that.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the demographic changes of Canada (and the West) are coming to a head in multiple respects.

In terms of a generational/age one, the power/wealth is shifting away from the Baby Boomers. They've expectations of comfortable golden years (the youngest is 57, the oldest 75) with the same social support system as their parents. This is going to increasingly put strain on governments to provide that and by extension strain their children/younger generations. The warnings of demographers past become reality by the day.

In terms of a ethnic background one, Canada is changing from a European-descended country to an actual multicultural one, in more the sense of real diversity (and associated conflict) I mentioned earlier. It leads to more polarization between more diverse cities and less diverse rural areas. How political parties bridge the gap grows harder. Bill Davis' Ontario was very different from Doug Ford's Ontario and likely whoever is Premier in 2051 Ontario.

The total fertility rate has been too low for too long to change these courses - the die is cast.

Another element will likely be one of declining economic prospects in the future. In retrospect, making Canada grow at several percent a year in decades past actually looks fairly easy given the harvesting of both scientific yield and population growth of a huge, resource abundant country. The fact we were able to grow despite very high interest rates and government being relatively parsimonious speaks to that. Now we approach an age of near-zero interest rates and large amounts of government spending, yet growth is much more anemic. It'll be harder to resolve the expectations of 3% growth per year against the likelihood that it will probably be much lower than that.

Is Canada doomed? No. It's not Japan going off a demographic cliff. Nor is it Australia who is far more isolated and dependent on natural resources as the only game it can play. However, I suspect the confluence of internal pressures within Canadian societies are going to make the singular focus of the past on the one axis of conflict a much less important issue.
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  #1086  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 5:03 PM
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Fair enough, the titular NS fisherman might be from Arichat or Cheticamp and therefore bilingual, but, if so, his patois would be somewhat displeasing to the ear, probably containing elements of franglais and he would not be as approved of in the halls of power as a certified member of the Laurentian elite from Gatineau or Montreal.
I'd still recalibrate the whole comparison and affirm that, controlling for other factors, being a unilingual francophone in Canada is still a more disadvantageous position than being a unilingual anglophone. By some measure.
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  #1087  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 5:18 PM
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I'd still recalibrate the whole comparison and affirm that, controlling for other factors, being a unilingual francophone in Canada is still a more disadvantageous position than being a unilingual anglophone. By some measure.
I don't think anyone is really arguing otherwise.

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Is Canada doomed? No. It's not Japan going off a demographic cliff. Nor is it Australia who is far more isolated and dependent on natural resources as the only game it can play. However, I suspect the confluence of internal pressures within Canadian societies are going to make the singular focus of the past on the one axis of conflict a much less important issue.
It's very much going to become an issue of whether or not an area/region/province wants to progress further into the 21st century or if it wants to pretend it's still 1990. We're already seeing in NL what can happen if a province goes off a cliff demographically and economically - other provinces will be in line if they can't coordinate themselves for what the 2030s and 2040s will bring. There's no time to sit around and think about how great things were 50 years ago and cling to them because there's no value in it. Whether that's economic, cultural, or other.
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  #1088  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 5:44 PM
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In terms of a ethnic background one, Canada is changing from a European-descended country to an actual multicultural one, in more the sense of real diversity (and associated conflict) I mentioned earlier. It leads to more polarization between more diverse cities and less diverse rural areas. How political parties bridge the gap grows harder. Bill Davis' Ontario was very different from Doug Ford's Ontario and likely whoever is Premier in 2051 Ontario.
.
While I don't think that for example the Western GTA is going to become a South Asian micro-version of Quebec, I do think that inevitable increases in immigration and the tendency for people to live among their "own" (human nature or something Canada isn't doing quite right?) is going to lead to deeper diversity across Canada than people are currently accustomed to.

In terms of "cultural" differences that people will feel, it won't be that different from what people from white middle America or African-American dominated cities observe when they venture onto each other's "turf". Minus the acute socio-economic disparities that are often inherent to the US of course.
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  #1089  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 5:51 PM
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It's very much going to become an issue of whether or not an area/region/province wants to progress further into the 21st century or if it wants to pretend it's still 1990. We're already seeing in NL what can happen if a province goes off a cliff demographically and economically - other provinces will be in line if they can't coordinate themselves for what the 2030s and 2040s will bring. There's no time to sit around and think about how great things were 50 years ago and cling to them because there's no value in it. Whether that's economic, cultural, or other.
In fairness to NL, I don't think that where they are today and where they are heading is entirely their own fault. They're victims of geography and circumstance to some degree as well.

Also, the subtext of your post about provinces nostalgically living in the past and resisting cultural change (maybe you have Quebec in mind?) rightly or wrongly isn't something usually associated with NL.
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  #1090  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 5:54 PM
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While I don't think that for example the Western GTA is going to become a South Asian micro-version of Quebec, I do think that inevitable increases in immigration and the tendency for people to live among their "own" (human nature or something Canada isn't doing quite right?) is going to lead to deeper diversity across Canada than people are currently accustomed to.

In terms of "cultural" differences that people will feel, it won't be that different from what people from white middle America or African-American dominated cities observe when they venture onto each other's "turf". Minus the acute socio-economic disparities that are often inherent to the US of course.
Sure, but coordinating and balancing the interests of people at a society-wide level (i.e. running a provincial government) will become more difficult is the point.

It was easier when someone who lived in Brampton and worked in an auto plant circa 1973 was likely the descendent of someone who lived on a farm in Strathroy a few decades earlier, or at least could empathize with that lifestyle. The perspective of someone who immigrated to Canada and settled in Brampton in 2003 from Pakistan and a rural resident of Strathroy today is much farther apart. I foresee that gap widening in the near-to-mid future, which makes it much more likely to be an axis of conflict.
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  #1091  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 6:41 PM
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Sure, but coordinating and balancing the interests of people at a society-wide level (i.e. running a provincial government) will become more difficult is the point.

It was easier when someone who lived in Brampton and worked in an auto plant circa 1973 was likely the descendent of someone who lived on a farm in Strathroy a few decades earlier, or at least could empathize with that lifestyle. The perspective of someone who immigrated to Canada and settled in Brampton in 2003 from Pakistan and a rural resident of Strathroy today is much farther apart. I foresee that gap widening in the near-to-mid future, which makes it much more likely to be an axis of conflict.
This is very plausible but I wouldn't attach too much importance to family ties in the regions.

I am descended from two Maritimers, and also have aunts and uncles who are Maritimers who settled in Quebec and Ontario and raised their families there.

My parents lived in Ontario for over 40 years (quite a bit longer than either of them lived in the Maritimes in fact) and I can't say I ever heard them refer to themselves as Ontarians, Ontario people or even Franco-Ontariens. But I've also never heard them or any Maritime-descended Central Canadian talk about their federal votes being influenced by policies that were dear to the hearts of Atlantic Canadians.

Even when stuff like UIC-EI reform was a hot topic, I never heard them talk about that at all. Either during campaigns or in-between elections.

And my family follows politics quite closely and we discuss a range of issues all the time.

Let's also not forget the Newfoundlander crowd in Alberta that massively voted for the CPC when that party was widely despised in NL.
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  #1092  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 6:46 PM
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Let's also not forget the Newfoundlander crowd in Alberta that massively voted for the CPC when that party was widely despised in NL.
There's often heavy selection at play in groups that migrate long distances or immigrate between countries.

I think this is a source of some big errors in the analysis of populations and their political leanings or relative success. It also points to lots of variance within groups and maybe a strong role that culture plays that is often ignored.

I have often wondered how Atlantic Canadians would look as a group if you tracked them by place of birth and not place of residence. For a long time they were the most likely to relocate in search of economic opportunity. This was probably true even in the 1800's. It's usually spun in a negative way (there must be nothing for people in their home region) but it can also be a positive trait (increased adventurousness and cultural tolerance of migration). There was a time when the UK was probably the most economically vibrant place on earth and had a strong culture of sending people abroad for long periods or permanently, including the well off who would administer colonies.
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  #1093  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 6:59 PM
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This is very plausible but I wouldn't attach too much importance to family ties in the regions.

I am descended from two Maritimers, and also have aunts and uncles who are Maritimers who settled in Quebec and Ontario and raised their families there.

My parents lived in Ontario for over 40 years (quite a bit longer than either of them lived in the Maritimes in fact) and I can't say I ever heard them refer to themselves as Ontarians, Ontario people or even Franco-Ontariens. But I've also never heard them or any Maritime-descended Central Canadian talk about their federal votes being influenced by policies that were dear to the hearts of Atlantic Canadians.

Even when stuff like UIC-EI reform was a hot topic, I never heard them talk about that at all. Either during campaigns or in-between elections.

And my family follows politics quite closely and we discuss a range of issues all the time.

Let's also not forget the Newfoundlander crowd in Alberta that massively voted for the CPC when that party was widely despised in NL.
It's not so much the family ties as it is one of the rural/urban divide emphasized by other aspects of difference. While cities have always lured more immigrants, they also had a larger proportion of citizens drawn from the rural areas previously. There was more blending.

In a society that can self-segregate and where rural/urban divide is seemingly stronger how does one manage the conflict of interests? IMO it'll be a bigger problem to bridge that widening gap for provinces. In many electoral maps, the difference between rural and urban areas is quite stark.

Both the urban and rural residents' grumblings will be harder to placate.
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  #1094  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 7:01 PM
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It's not so much the family ties as it is one of the rural/urban divide emphasized by other aspects of difference. While cities have always lured more immigrants, they also had a larger proportion of citizens drawn from the rural areas previously. There was more blending.

In a society that can self-segregate and where rural/urban divide is seemingly stronger how does one manage the conflict of interests. IMO it'll be a bigger problem to bridge that widening gap for provinces. In many electoral maps, the difference between rural and urban areas is quite stark.

Both the urban and rural residents' grumblings will be harder to placate.
I am definitely on board with the idea that Canada is very likely to be more fractious going forward - for all sorts of reasons.

(Though I am not really happy about this of course.)
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  #1095  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 7:10 PM
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It's not so much the family ties as it is one of the rural/urban divide emphasized by other aspects of difference. While cities have always lured more immigrants, they also had a larger proportion of citizens drawn from the rural areas previously. There was more blending.

In a society that can self-segregate and where rural/urban divide is seemingly stronger how does one manage the conflict of interests. IMO it'll be a bigger problem to bridge that widening gap for provinces. In many electoral maps, the difference between rural and urban areas is quite stark.

Both the urban and rural residents' grumblings will be harder to placate.
But isn't there a growing rural/urban divide everywhere else in the Western world? There might be some funny exceptions, like Southern Germany, where you can find a high-tech manufacturing plant in the middle of nowhere and young people with Masters degrees like living in little villages and don't see the big draw of moving to a metropolis.

In Canada, increasingly, we are moving from a federation of nation-style provinces to a federation of metropolitan city states, where the largest metro has north of 50% of the province's population, and growing, calls all the shots in the provincial legislature, and the depopulating rural areas basically either cater to metropolitan tourism or service formerly-metropolitan retirees.

So we might have to update our analogy of Canada from "being like the EU" to "being like the UAE".
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  #1096  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 7:22 PM
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I am definitely on board with the idea that Canada is very likely to be more fractious going forward - for all sorts of reasons.

(Though I am not really happy about this of course.)
Which is my point.

All I'm saying: It won't be one historial point of contention sucking up all the oxygen in the country, but multiple groups on multiple topics. Which sort of fits with the whole diversity bit, I suppose.

I'm not sure if a bunch of smaller issues of acrimony is better than one larger one.

Hence my opinion on the internal conflicts absorbing more of our mindspace.
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  #1097  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 7:24 PM
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But isn't there a growing rural/urban divide everywhere else in the Western world? There might be some funny exceptions, like Southern Germany, where you can find a high-tech manufacturing plant in the middle of nowhere and young people with Masters degrees like living in little villages and don't see the big draw of moving to a metropolis.

In Canada, increasingly, we are moving from a federation of nation-style provinces to a federation of metropolitan city states, where the largest metro has north of 50% of the province's population, and growing, calls all the shots in the provincial legislature, and the depopulating rural areas basically either cater to metropolitan tourism or service formerly-metropolitan retirees.

So we might have to update our analogy of Canada from "being like the EU" to "being like the UAE".
I'm mostly speaking from a Canadian point-of-view, but many of the issues I've touched on are Western world issues at large. My main point was that these pan-Western problems are probably going to become more important than the more historical problems we've faced.
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  #1098  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 7:35 PM
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I'm mostly speaking from a Canadian point-of-view, but many of the issues I've touched on are Western world issues at large. My main point was that these pan-Western problems are probably going to become more important than the more historical problems we've faced.
Hey, I was just about to write that a lot of this is a "western world" phenomenon and not a specifically Canadian one.

People talk a lot about Japan's decline and uncertain future but I am not sure that they're in that bad a spot.

Actually, I don't think Canada is in that bad a spot either, relatively speaking. Though going forward we might not be geopolitically structured in a way that is very familiar to 2021 Canadians.

But regardless this landmass will still probably remain a pretty good place to hang your shingle. All things considered.
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  #1099  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 7:51 PM
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Hey, I was just about to write that a lot of this is a "western world" phenomenon and not a specifically Canadian one.

People talk a lot about Japan's decline and uncertain future but I am not sure that they're in that bad a spot.

Actually, I don't think Canada is in that bad a spot either, relatively speaking. Though going forward we might not be geopolitically structured in a way that is very familiar to 2021 Canadians.

But regardless this landmass will still probably remain a pretty good place to hang your shingle. All things considered.
This is kind of the great question of the next 20-60 years for the West.

Depending on how the cards fall, Japan might be fine. It has a lot of advantages: highly cohesive society, extremely well-developed technology sector, can survive traumatic events and proven ability to re-imagine itself in a changing world.

The old idea of population growth is required for growth in general may not prove to such an advantage in the future where there's already 8 billion of us. Hugely growing countries may find a large population a liability, not a benefit. Egypt is caught in a demographic trap currently.

Canada has benefits too. Our population growth can be catered to our economic needs, as it increasingly depends in immigration. I think our natural change is set to go negative in the next couple of years. Our society is more cohesive than one would expect given our diverse makeup (see: high COVID vaccine take rate, relative calm in face of COVID restrictions). We've abundant resources and can actually accomplish great things when we act against the grain; this country has produced smartphones, jet aircraft, massive hydro stations and nuclear power plants.
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Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 8:00 PM
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It's often said that Canada is a lagging indicator when it comes to global trends, and that by the time they hit us they're largely spent and we get off fairly lightly.

I don't see any indication that this will change, though I do think the scale of the shakeup in the western world could be rougher going than anything we've seen in a long time. Perhaps in my lifetime - and I am in my early 50s.

If that's true that even being at the tail end of it might still mean we get hit fairly hard. By our standards anyway.
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