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  #2341  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 8:31 PM
thewave46 thewave46 is online now
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
True. But I think the beta testers were those driving Nissan Leafs and Tesla S 6 years ago when they were the only options.

That's true, but changing all the time. Is there specific in-service data you want to know? Nothing stops century-old manufacturers like Ford and GM from building lemons on a semi-regular basis either.

That's true, but mostly because the dealer network is broken. As for EVs themselves, they have far fewer moving parts, and don't undergo the massive temperature changes that combustion engines do, and all of the requisite wear and tear.

That's fine. I wouldn't invest ~$50k in a new ICE right now either, unless you're planning to drive it into the ground.
I generally keep my cars until they go off to the scrapyard. I don't spend anywhere near $50k on the purchase - that's way too spendy for my taste.

Mostly, I'm looking for a few things from a perspective of a late-adopter of technology. I'm not asking you to answer these questions, but there are the ones floating about in my mind:

1. How's the performance of the batteries over the lifespan of the vehicle? A battery that still is 80% good at 10 years is acceptable, but <50% is starting to crimp what I can do with it. Like I said, I drive cars until they're finished.

2. Do the existing manufacturers have the same QC programs that make a Toyota Corolla a reasonably safe bet over such a lifespan? Will the support be there in more rural regions for when something is an issue?

3. How does the battery perform in exceptionally cold conditions? Will it work nearly as well under -30C conditions (it can be cold where I live), or what penalty do I risk by using it in those conditions? If it's a manageable one, sure. If it makes my road trip a gamble, maybe not.

4. Is the roadside charging infrastructure in my region capable of giving me a quick boost to get to my destination? Or am I only at the mercy of the battery range? I do make occasional 500 km trips by road, so I feel a lot better about having charge points available at evenly spaced intervals.

Hence the hedge (plug-in hybrid) for my next car unless a lot of data comes out in support of these questions. Most of my mileage is ~20km city driving, but there are moments where I need to make a longer trip.
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  #2342  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 8:36 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
1. How's the performance of the batteries over the lifespan of the vehicle? A battery that still is 80% good at 10 years is acceptable, but <50% is starting to crimp what I can do with it. Like I said, I drive cars until they're finished.
Tesla 3 is warrantied for 8 years or 240K kms, for 70% battery retention. Personally I'd be disappointed if it was down near that level. I'm hoping for more like 85% by then.

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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
3. How does the battery perform in exceptionally cold conditions? Will it work nearly as well under -30C conditions (it can be cold where I live), or what penalty do I risk by using it in those conditions? If it's a manageable one, sure. If it makes my road trip a gamble, maybe not.
Range is significantly impacted at temps that low. 50% probably, including heating up the cabin. There are reports out there from people who live in those regions.

Being able to remain plugged in and stored in a garage will help a lot. Starting the trip with a warm cabin, and (full) warm battery will help significantly.

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Originally Posted by thewave46 View Post
4. Is the roadside charging infrastructure in my region capable of giving me a quick boost to get to my destination? Or am I only at the mercy of the battery range? I do make occasional 500 km trips by road, so I feel a lot better about having charge points available at evenly spaced intervals.

Hence the hedge (plug-in hybrid) for my next car unless a lot of data comes out in support of these questions. Most of my mileage is ~20km city driving, but there are moments where I need to make a longer trip.
There might be more charging than you're aware of. The stations aren't nearly as obvious as gas stations. Check plugshare.com.
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  #2343  
Old Posted Oct 25, 2021, 9:14 PM
Mister F Mister F is online now
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Originally Posted by urbandreamer View Post
Many renters won't be able to get EVs. My building management is always a decade behind the latest trends so I'm not expecting on site chargers until the mid 2030s.
The first generation of modern mass market, relatively affordable EVs like the iD.4 and EV6 are only just starting to get introduced, so it's easy for property management companies to ignore them. But they'll start to change their tune when we get into the steep part of the adoption curve. My bet is that we'll be hearing a lot more about this in the second half of the decade.

In the meantime it's perfectly possible to have an EV if you can't charge it at home. There are plenty of other places to charge that are almost as convenient, like workplaces, shopping centres, and municipal parking.

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See the Bill Gates interview I put up in the Economy thread. He makes the point that this transition will be unprecedented in human history (he was citing Vaclav Smil) and it has to be. Billions of lives depend on it. If the worst that comes of it is a few dollars a month more in property taxes for road maintenance, we will be stunningly lucky.
The concern about the weight of EVs is interesting because people who have that concern seem to be ignoring the extra road maintenance costs from climate change. Climate change is resulting in higher costs for stormwater infrastructure, roads, buildings, railways, mines, farms...the list goes on. With close to 1/3 of greenhouse gas emissions coming from light cars and trucks, electrifying them will play a major role in getting climate change under control. The extra costs from some extra weight in our cars is nothing compared to the extra costs of continuing to burn fossil fuels for personal transportation.

That being said, I completely agree with the approach of taxing personal vehicles by weight or size. The bloated vehicles that are so popular now have more than enough negative impacts to warrant incentives to downsize, regardless of the power source. But the car companies have most of their profits tied up in these vehicles and have spent the last 20 years convincing the public that they need them, so I'm not really optimistic.
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  #2344  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 1:18 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
The Ram TRX weighs 6400 lbs.

It seems like you're just surprised that cars in general weigh a lot. The Corolla today weighs about the same as a Camry from two decades ago. Cars are just heavier now. It's not EV specific.
No, I've been bothered for well over a decade about how heavy vehicles have become. A mid sized sedan now weighs the same or more than a luxo barge from the 1970s.

I don't have the motivation or time to do a detailed model-to-model comparison, including external dimensions and interior space, but my impression is that in general similar sized/marketed EVs are heavier than the equivalent IC vehicle. For example the RAM TRX you cited is 15.8 inches (40 cm) longer and 8.7 inches (22 cm) wider than a Rivian R1T, so it's not completely an apples to apples comparison.

Others in this thread seem to agree that EVs are heavier in general with estimates like a couple hundred pounds more or statements that the added weight will not damage the roads (indicating that they are heavier), which are fair comments but not really precise comparison data.

I have a problem with vehicles in general becoming large heavy pigs with all the advancements in technology being taken up hauling larger, heavier vehicles around. As others have mentioned, we're in a climate crisis - an emergency, which one would think should require drastic action. Well, maybe that drastic action should include mandating maximum length/width/height/mass requirements for all passenger vehicles. Why are we totally revamping the car as we know it, with government mandates to ensure that it happens, but we are totally OK with continuing on with pickup trucks, SUVs, and cars that are much larger and thus heavier than they need to be?

It can be reasoned that some of the weight increase over the years is due to more electronics being in current vehicles and weight added because of safety requirements (air bags, bodies designed to meet crash test requirements, etc.). However some of that weight increase was countered by using high strength steels and/or composite materials and metals which are lighter (i.e. higher strength to weight ratio) than steel. The fact remains that vehicle size is the main reason, and changing market segments whereby the vast majority of vehicles sold are large and heavy (example: many automakers have all but discontinued marketing small sedans, replacing them with larger/heavier car-like SUVs and 'crossovers' - not to mention that huge pickup trucks are now at or near the top of sales data for the US and Canada).

My comments/disappointments occur when I ask myself why we are apparently OK with settling for EVs to just be twice as efficient as ICs (or whatever the direct comparison numbers would be)... why shouldn't we be shooting for three times as energy efficient? Or 20 times? Get the size and weight down and really make a difference for climate change.

I already know the answers that will follow:
- The market demands large heavy vehicles and people won't be inclined to buy EVs if they aren't comparable to the large heavy pigs that IC vehicles have become.
- The government is already doing enough in mandating manufacturers to stop producing IC vehicles by 2040 - mandating size would make them unpopular and they would get voted out.
- EVs are already way more efficient than IC vehicles, so you're just trying to create an argument to make them look bad because you're a luddite or some sort of oil industry booster, etc.
- But... the batteries (hint: smaller lighter vehicles require less battery power to achieve an equivalent range).
- Etc.

So... what's the point of discussing it? If you bring up any point here that isn't gushing over EVs you get accused of being ignorant or stupid, or at the very least are treated like you don't know anything or have no experience - or more commonly that you have some kind of agenda to disprove the greatness of EVs.

I wouldn't even try to discuss other EV-related topics, such as the well-known issue of how difficult it is to extinguish EV fires, because it would only be answered with 'whattabout gasoline?'.

I do understand the enthusiasm - I too am enthusiastic - but any and every new technology comes with other effects that may or may not be positive. However, the discussion here is seems to be more echo-chamber-ish than anything else.

I already have seen numerous other debate points to any comments I have made, and frankly I don't want to spend the time or energy to read them or answer them. Probably will do the same to whatever debate points or character comments that this post draws. The pile-on has been enough to dampen my enthusiasm about this thread, which is no longer even about 'lamenting the decline of the car'... perhaps it should be renamed 'EV discussion' or whatever.

Anyhow, thanks for reading. I'm done for now.
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  #2345  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 1:50 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I worry far more about the size and volume of cars than their weight. Really, as a pedestrian, it's not going to make that much of a difference whether I get hit by a 4000 lb car or 4500 lb car. It does make a huge difference whether i get grill marks on my face from a lifted pickup truck or whether I roll across the hood. Weight is a poor proxy to use for these concerns. Also, volume matters. The more traffic, the more risk to pedestrians and cyclists.

Would be nice to have laws restrict vehicle size for non-commercial drivers. But I suspect, people would protest this, because "freedom".
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  #2346  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:10 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I worry far more about the size and volume of cars than their weight. Really, as a pedestrian, it's not going to make that much of a difference whether I get hit by a 4000 lb car or 4500 lb car. It does make a huge difference whether i get grill marks on my face from a lifted pickup truck or whether I roll across the hood. Weight is a poor proxy to use for these concerns. Also, volume matters. The more traffic, the more risk to pedestrians and cyclists.

Would be nice to have laws restrict vehicle size for non-commercial drivers. But I suspect, people would protest this, because "freedom".
Yes, that's a concern, but you can't discount vehicle mass as it also increases braking distance, which means the vehicle's speed will be greater when it hits you, or the driver or collision avoidance software would have had to react that much quicker to avoid hitting you in the first place.

Increased momentum from increased mass also inflicts larger forces on whatever it strikes. Sure, you're probably dead as a pedestrian whether the vehicle weighs 3000 lbs or 5000 lbs, but a threshold could likely be crossed if you are in a vehicle being hit.

There's also the concept of reduced maneuverability as weight climbs, i.e. in an avoidance maneuver the component of forces acting on the tires that's parallel to the pavement surface will be greater, therefore affecting the vehicle's ability to change direction at speed. In other words, the more momentum inflicting sideways forces on the vehicle, the greater the frictional forces between the tires and the pavement would have to be to keep it from slipping, and the coefficient of friction to transform from static to dynamic. It's one of the many reasons why they try to build race cars as light as they can.

There are lots of arguments against increased weight in vehicles, but there's no real point in discussing it. You're gonna believe what you're gonna believe and the last thing I want to do is get caught up in some pointless debate.
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  #2347  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 4:47 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Yes, that's a concern, but you can't discount vehicle mass as it also increases braking distance, which means the vehicle's speed will be greater when it hits you, or the driver or collision avoidance software would have had to react that much quicker to avoid hitting you in the first place.
Sure, these are concerns. But again, the impact from weight increase on conversion to BEVs is pretty marginal here. The broader trend to larger vehicles drives far more of an increase in vehicle weight, than conversion to EVs.

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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Increased momentum from increased mass also inflicts larger forces on whatever it strikes. Sure, you're probably dead as a pedestrian whether the vehicle weighs 3000 lbs or 5000 lbs, but a threshold could likely be crossed if you are in a vehicle being hit.

There's also the concept of reduced maneuverability as weight climbs, i.e. in an avoidance maneuver the component of forces acting on the tires that's parallel to the pavement surface will be greater, therefore affecting the vehicle's ability to change direction at speed. In other words, the more momentum inflicting sideways forces on the vehicle, the greater the frictional forces between the tires and the pavement would have to be to keep it from slipping, and the coefficient of friction to transform from static to dynamic. It's one of the many reasons why they try to build race cars as light as they can.
Momentum is mass x velocity. So there's two knobs to turn here.

If you're really concerned about collision risk, you should be far, far more concerned about urban driving speeds than 500 lbs more weight from batteries. Turning down urban speeds by 10-20 kph would do more than making vehicles lighter. And it would substantially improve survivability with pedestrians and cyclists too.

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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
There are lots of arguments against increased weight in vehicles, but there's no real point in discussing it. You're gonna believe what you're gonna believe and the last thing I want to do is get caught up in some pointless debate.
You seem to think the rest of us don't care about vehicle weight at all. That's a bit of a strawman. We just don't happen to think it's as big a concern as all the other issues we face. If the choice is 500 lbs more on each car or 20% more emissions as a country, I'll choose the 500 lbs every time. Sometimes I wonder if this is the difference in generational perspectives, with older folks not truly believing that climate change is a pressing problem.

Should be noted to that while I am pretty excited about EVs and what they'll do, I firmly believe the best car is no car (at least for daily tasks). Unfortunately in North America, we aren't at the point yet, where that is practical for most people.
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  #2348  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:05 PM
homebucket homebucket is online now
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
My comments/disappointments occur when I ask myself why we are apparently OK with settling for EVs to just be twice as efficient as ICs (or whatever the direct comparison numbers would be)... why shouldn't we be shooting for three times as energy efficient? Or 20 times? Get the size and weight down and really make a difference for climate change.
I don't think anyone has given any indication that they are settling for EVs in their current state? Most are in agreement that EVs are still in their infant stage (think brick cell phones). As the technology improves, weights should come down, batteries will become smaller and more efficient. We'll probably see this happen within the next 5-10 years.
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  #2349  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:12 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
I don't think anyone has given any indication that they are settling for EVs in their current state? Most are in agreement that EVs are still in their infant stage (think brick cell phones). As the technology improves, weights should come down, batteries will become smaller and more efficient. We'll probably see this happen within the next 5-10 years.
Once you've driven EV you'll never go back IMO. If you're into performance sport, manual transmission, sure you'll miss it. I'm talking for the other 95%.
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  #2350  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:12 PM
homebucket homebucket is online now
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I already have seen numerous other debate points to any comments I have made, and frankly I don't want to spend the time or energy to read them or answer them. Probably will do the same to whatever debate points or character comments that this post draws. The pile-on has been enough to dampen my enthusiasm about this thread, which is no longer even about 'lamenting the decline of the car'... perhaps it should be renamed 'EV discussion' or whatever.
One downside of EVs is that they won't have the same type of character that ICE cars have. As manufacturers move towards a more optimal and efficient skateboard design where the battery packs are in the floor of the car, with motors powering all four wheels, with the instant torque, low center of gravity, single speed transmission, electronic steering, all EV cars will essentially drive and feel the same on the road. Choosing one won't be a matter of picking a powertrain, but rather aesthetics. Whether you like the interior and exterior design and materials. Basically, an appliance. Functionally, they'll feel exactly the same to the average driver. The options will probably just be short, medium, or long range.

With ICE cars you have a variety of different engine sizes (displacement, cylinder), tuning (naturally aspirated vs turbo vs supercharged), engine layouts (front engine, mid engine, rear engine), drivetrains (FWD, RWD, AWD), and transmissions (manual, auto).
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  #2351  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
One downside of EVs is that they won't have the same type of character that ICE cars have. As manufacturers move towards a more optimal and efficient skateboard design where the battery packs are in the floor of the car, with motors powering all four wheels, with the instant torque, low center of gravity, single speed transmission, electronic steering, all EV cars will essentially drive and feel the same on the road. Choosing one won't be a matter of picking a powertrain, but rather aesthetics. Whether you like the interior and exterior design and materials. Basically, an appliance. Functionally, they'll feel exactly the same to the average driver. The options will probably just be short, medium, or long range.

With ICE cars you have a variety of different engine sizes (displacement, cylinder), tuning (naturally aspirated vs turbo vs supercharged), engine layouts (front engine, mid engine, rear engine), drivetrains (FWD, RWD, AWD), and transmissions (manual, auto).
It will all be simplified, this sounds awesome. A car is at its core an appliance, one that gets you from point A to point B. Everything else that people want to attach to it is simply a result of effective marketing.
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  #2352  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:38 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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One downside of EVs is that they won't have the same type of character that ICE cars have. As manufacturers move towards a more optimal and efficient skateboard design where the battery packs are in the floor of the car, with motors powering all four wheels, with the instant torque, low center of gravity, single speed transmission, electronic steering, all EV cars will essentially drive and feel the same on the road. Choosing one won't be a matter of picking a powertrain, but rather aesthetics. Whether you like the interior and exterior design and materials. Basically, an appliance. Functionally, they'll feel exactly the same to the average driver. The options will probably just be short, medium, or long range.

With ICE cars you have a variety of different engine sizes (displacement, cylinder), tuning (naturally aspirated vs turbo vs supercharged), engine layouts (front engine, mid engine, rear engine), drivetrains (FWD, RWD, AWD), and transmissions (manual, auto).
You're swooning over the romance of exotic cars, while in reality the majority of folks drive Rav4s and CRVs and really don't given much of a damn about the character of their car, any more than they would care about the character of their stove or fridge.

For those who do care, electrification will create a whole renaissance of exotic new cars. There's already some who are rear mounting batteries for specific performance gains.

I also love the democratization aspect of EVs on this front. Don't have buy $80 000 - 100 000 sports cars to get an exciting drive. Tesla pulls it off in a $50k family sedan. When I hear the character argument, I wonder, if this isn't a bit of elitism here. Dudes who spent a ton of money and time on their whips, absolutely hate the idea of accountant dads and soccer moms getting that same feeling in a stock car.
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  #2353  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:44 PM
homebucket homebucket is online now
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You're swooning over the romance of exotic cars, while in reality the majority of folks drive Rav4s and CRVs and really don't given much of a damn about the character of their car, any more than they would care about the character of their stove or fridge.
Yep, an appliance like I said.
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  #2354  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:45 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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But my F150's sweet unique character defines me as a person!

/s
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  #2355  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:45 PM
homebucket homebucket is online now
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I also love the democratization aspect of EVs on this front. Don't have buy $80 000 - 100 000 sports cars to get an exciting drive. Tesla pulls it off in a $50k family sedan. When I hear the character argument, I wonder, if this isn't a bit of elitism here. Dudes who spent a ton of money and time on their whips, absolutely hate the idea of accountant dads and soccer moms getting that same feeling in a stock car.
There's more to a car being fun to drive, than just speed.
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  #2356  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:52 PM
homebucket homebucket is online now
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But my F150's sweet unique character defines me as a person!

/s
Actually, pick up trucks are probably the one class of vehicle that would benefit most from transition to EV. They're not generally driven sportingly, most people use them as appliances, for a specific purpose and function. The EV drivetrain will offer plenty of power for towing and trailering. And the frunk will offer an additional secure storage space, something that pick up trucks natively lack without the addition of a bed cover or top.
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  #2357  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:54 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Actually, pick up trucks are probably the one class of vehicle that would benefit most from transition to EV. They're not generally driven sportingly, most people use them as appliances, for a specific purpose and function. The EV drivetrain will offer plenty of power for towing and trailering. And the frunk will offer an additional secure storage space, something that pick up trucks natively lack without the addition of a bed cover or top.
I disagree, I think people drive them because they think it makes them look cool and tough, compared to all of those losers driving a Prius.

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  #2358  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 6:57 PM
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That's fine. I wouldn't invest ~$50k in a new ICE right now either, unless you're planning to drive it into the ground.
I wonder how many people are thinking this way.

I bought an ICE vehicle this year hoping for it to be my last new daily use ICE vehicle. I can definitely see myself buying ICE sports cars for decades to come.

I'm also so curious to see what happens to market dynamics with resale values on ICE cars as some of these cut off dates approach closer.
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  #2359  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 7:02 PM
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I disagree, I think people drive them because they think it makes them look cool and tough, compared to all of those losers driving a Prius.

The Rivian R1T looks pretty cool and tough to me. It can accomplish everything an F-150 can and more. And since these aren't high performance sports cars you aren't losing anything by switching to EV. I don't think people buy F-150s for their exhaust notes or handling dynamics or setting lap times.
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  #2360  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2021, 7:06 PM
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The Rivian R1T looks pretty cool and tough to me. It can accomplish everything an F-150 can and more. And since these aren't high performance sports cars you aren't losing anything by switching to EV. I don't think people buy F-150s for their exhaust notes or handling dynamics or setting lap times.
The Rivian is fire.

If I was a little less disciplined with my finances I would order one, I really like it.
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