Waterdown South to house 8,900 residents

[the dude]

Originally Posted by DC83

I forget who said it on here, but someone mentioned that the newer, younger generations are moving back to the city and forgetting suburban sprawl.
Myself, my brother, most of my friends who are moving out of their parents' homes are moving into the city (both Hamilton and Toronto, unfortunately).

i have to agree with flar. most of my friends moved from the burbs to the city and then back again after marriage. they rave about their time in the city but don't think it's an appropriate place for children. i'll never quite understand that logic but hey...

[the dude]

Originally Posted by DC83

Give the city 10-15 years. If we haven't already imploded, we'll have a fresh bach a PROGRESSIVE thinkers on council, on city staff, and all across the city in general.

concern about the environment, resource depletion, peak oil are not new ideas. thoreau, the group of seven, etc., were all hippies of a sort. the peace and 'faux' environmental movements of the 60s and 70s produced...yuppies. it's a tough fight and most don't have what it takes to make it into positions of power, or are corrupted along the way. i really do hope you're correct, though. it's our only hope.

personally, i think people will return to our cities kicking and screaming, only after it's already too late.

[raisethehammer]

I know our downtown half-block went from having 1 child 4 years ago to 11 now. the oldest kid is 10. All young families. Around the corner there are over a dozen young kids. Go to Victoria Park any reasonably nice day and there are swarms of kids playing and pregnant ladies everywhere. Lol.

[markbarbera]

This is best measured using what I call the Haloween test. The true feel for how many kids are in any particular neighbourhood is on the night of October 31. The past few years I have had at least five times more children at my door in the Wentworth/Stinson area than the places my family members have in the suburban parts of town.

As an aside, I had experienced an unusual moment a few months back that made me feel great about my neighbourhood, often the subject of scorn from those living up on the escarpment. I was walking home from the grocery store and, it being a lovely autumn day, a lot of people were out and about saying 'hello' as they passed each other on the street. I passed one place where my neighbours had friends that had stopped by for a visit. The kids were playing on their front yard while the adults were sitting and talking on the front porch. I waved 'hello' to them, as did a couple on the opposite side of the street heading in the opposite direction. As I passed by the kids, I overheard one say to the other "Wow, people sure are friendly down off the mountain". From the mouths of babes...

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

fastcars...i think you're missing my point. There is no elitism on the board as far as I can tell.
Would you consider me an elitist if I said "we need less smokers in our society polluting kids in their cars"?
No, it's a fact.
We need better planning and less car-dependant sprawl in our society. That's not elitism, it's a fact.
Check todays Star for a report linking air pollution to heart problems. Anyone on here who doesn't know already, air pollution leads to a whole host of problems.
Why should we ban smokers in restaurants, yet allow people to circle the restaurant with their engines idling?
A lot of this has to do with perspective...the media and society in general has convinced us that living in car dependant suburbs is good and smoking is bad.
The same people who 'choose' to live in these areas never shut-up about the price of gas (which is much lower than it should be in N.America) and yet will sit in a drive-thru to pay $5.00 for a bit of coffee and syrup.

We need to start calling things as they are, and not as the TV tells us they are.
Sprawl is bad in every way imaginable. That's not elitist, but I apologize if it comes across that way.
It's simply the truth.

People who choose to live in suburban locations do so for any number of reasons, and I cannot stand that you are so judgmental. It is not as if these are evil people.

Some things that people consider appealing about life in the suburbs compared to life in the city:
- home prices tend to be less expensive
- suburbs are quieter
- homes tend to have front yards and backyards and driveways
- homes tend to be new or newer than in the city
- suburbs tend to be closer to nature/ green space
- there are less bums in the suburbs

[HAMRetrofit]

Noobs list of the reasons people move to the suburbs:

- home prices tend to be less expensive
Often built with low quality SPF lumber, vinyl siding, and shitty windows. Houses are shoe horned into lots not large enough to support them. Generic designs with terrible floor plans are most common.

- suburbs are quieter
Constant lawn mowing in summer, leaf blowers in fall, and winter extreme isolation make this less than desirable. Thin walls between homes tend to transfer sound much more sound.

- homes tend to have front yards and backyards and driveways
Normally underutilized spaces with crumby gardens and cheep plywood decks. Driveways act as heat islands normally parked full of ugly unwashed vehicles. Mini vans and SUVs block views of the street and waste space.

- homes tend to be new or newer than in the city
Often built of lower quality material and require renovation prematurely. Usually not well assembled with flimsy floors, walls, and fixtures. Standard features purchased from Home Depot of lousy design standards.

- suburbs tend to be closer to nature/ green space
Genetically altered plant species, hyper-fertilized green lawns, parks that are not utilized and ugly, landscapes are generally poorly maintained.

- there are less bums in the suburbs
This is a positive for the city. The bums downtown tend to be far more attractive. Young attractive females in the city vs. soccer moms in the suburbs. I will take the more quantifiable city bums any day.

[markbarbera]

BCTed's list sounds like one written by someone who has lived an exclusively suburban life. Having lived in both environments, I'd have to say I prefer the urban life. Here is my list of reasons:

- property taxes tend to be less expensive
- neighbourhoods are friendlier
- homes tend to have a more unique architectural character
- homes tend to be built to a higher standard of construction
- neighbourhooods tend to be closer to amenities and cultural institutions
- there is less sense of community in the suburbs

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

Noobs list of the reasons people move to the suburbs:

- suburbs tend to be closer to nature/ green space
Genetically altered plant species, hyper-fertilized green lawns, parks that are not utilized and ugly, landscapes are generally poorly maintained.

I have to add to this one...

Proximity to nature is an illusion. Suburban developers know how to market this illusion well, but in a year or two, the nature you were so close to will be tilled and developed. If you live in a fast growing city, you'll be nowhere close to nature in about 5-10 years. And the appeal of "quietness" will quickly disappear as your street becomes a track for street racers. Eventually, your suburb will become obsolete in fulfilling those functions and wealthy families will head to the next ring of suburbs being built further out. Then your inner suburb will eventually deteriorate since it doesn't contain the redeeming qualities that the inner city has.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by BCTed

People who choose to live in suburban locations do so for any number of reasons, and I cannot stand that you are so judgmental. It is not as if these are evil people.

Some things that people consider appealing about life in the suburbs compared to life in the city:
- home prices tend to be less expensive
- suburbs are quieter
- homes tend to have front yards and backyards and driveways
- homes tend to be new or newer than in the city
- suburbs tend to be closer to nature/ green space
- there are less bums in the suburbs

Normally I wouldn't reply to something so hilarious, but I feel I must on this one.
I don't know how to insert comments like others, so I'll respond to each of your points in order below:

1. I would hope it's less expensive to live in a house built in a week of extra thick cardboard.
2. Really?? I know people in the Meadowlands, Upper James area. Non-stop traffic, honking, brake squealing and cars speeding. It's horrible.
3. Do you actually have evidence that people in these areas sit inside and look at their front yards and backyards?? Cause nobody is ever out using them.
4. And in 50 years once they've been torn (or blown) down and replaced again, they'll still be newer than the 150-200 year old homes in the city.
5. What suburb are you in?? I live downtown and am a 5 minute bike ride to the escarpment, Cootes Paradise, West Harbour and Dundas Valley entrance trails. Also, area parks - Victoria Park, Dundurn and HAAA are all nearby. Add Valley Inn Road trail and RBG to the list. I spent most of my childhood in the Upp. Wentworth/Rymal area. A big empty patch of grass they called a park was it. Nothing for miles.
6. Actually there are way more bums in suburbs. As one small example, yesterday I helped push 7 cars out of the streets while walking my neighbourhood in the storm. Others came out and helped, neighbours played. Our kids were outside ALL day playing in the snow with neighbourhood kids. A friend of mine near Upp Wellington spent an hour pushing his car home in the snow. He passed 9 men shoveling or snow blowing their driveways and not one offered help. A couple actually got mad when his car got stuck in front of their place. I've got story after story I could share. I too, have friends who grew up on the Mountain and after 2 months living in their new place downtown were shocked at how friendly people are. They would say to me "we're only ten minutes from where we lived our entire lives on the Mountain, yet it's like a different world".
Yep, there's more than enough bums in the burbs.

[raisethehammer]

Retrofit....one of the funniest lines I've ever read on this site:

- there are less bums in the suburbs
This is a positive for the city. The bums downtown tend to be far more attractive. Young attractive females in the city vs. soccer moms in the suburbs. I will take the more quantifiable city bums any day.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

Normally I wouldn't reply to something so hilarious, ...

And you claim to not put people down.

[hamiltonguy]

I'm sorry but that line about no bums in the burbs.

The bums in the burbs are just so big!(no exercise)

And the whole thing about closer to nature is BS. The only decent sized park on the mountain (ie. not a small patch of grass) is TB. McQueeston which pales in comparison to many parks below the mountain.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I had been sitting on my hands on this thread for the last couple of days so I wouldn't once again be branded a shit-disturber. So, today I see there has been quite a flurry of posting here...all of it absolutely unproductive.

I have lived in both the urban world and the suburban world (in fact, my formative years bordered on exurban). Regardless, I think it is obvious that some people prefer one over the other. There are justifiable reasons I've chosen to live in the suburbs, just like there are perfectly good reasons someone would choose to live in the city. It's called preference, and we're all a little different on that point...doesn't make any of us more or less a man than someone else. Last time I checked this was still a Forum, not a pissing contest.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I had been sitting on my hands on this thread for the last couple of days so I wouldn't once again be branded a shit-disturber. So, today I see there has been quite a flurry of posting here...all of it absolutely unproductive.

I have lived in both the urban world and the suburban world (in fact, my formative years bordered on exurban). Regardless, I think it is obvious that some people prefer one over the other. There are justifiable reasons I've chosen to live in the suburbs, just like there are perfectly good reasons someone would choose to live in the city. It's called preference, and we're all a little different on that point...doesn't make any of us more or less a man than someone else. Last time I checked this was still a Forum, not a pissing contest.

you are right fastcars.
But when someone posts some 'points' about suburban living that are false at best, others are forced to chime in.
I too have lived in both 'worlds'. I honestly can't find one point that I prefered during my years in the burbs.
Of course it doesn't make anyone less of a man. Nobody said that.
But don't expect us to sit back while someone BS's the board about nature in the burbs and the quiet, peaceful, country-like setting.
Despite what the builders con people with, 2,000 more townhomes on Rymal Rd is NOT country living in the city. I know people in the country and they'd prefer to live on the moon before taking up residence in the suburbs.
Of course, part of this might be due to the fact that suburbia is literally paving over their way of life so there's probably some justified angst towards the burbs.
Regardless, I respect your desire to live where you do.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

you are right fastcars.
But when someone posts some 'points' about suburban living that are false at best, others are forced to chime in.
I too have lived in both 'worlds'. I honestly can't find one point that I prefered during my years in the burbs.

You can't think of any positive aspects to suburban life. Fine. If everyone was of the same opinion as you, then there would be no such thing as a suburb. But there clearly are people who choose to live in suburbs, and I believe that the items I listed ("false" or not) are some of the reasons for that choice.

If my entire list is so invalid and laughable, then perhaps you can tell me what it is that compels people to purchase suburban homes.

[realcity]

Here's a book for you to all read. It's very objective and written by a Mac Prof. Richard Harris


http://books.google.ca/books?id=GPYf...with-thumbnail

Interview with Harris
http://www.raisethehammer.org/index.asp?id=169


I like his term "corporate suburb". In essence a buyer of a suburban house is buying a version of what a corporation thinks you want. A mini-Disney if you will. They are much less organic -- less variety, more homogenous because they are planned to suit the needs of a certain buyer. Thus they attract they same types of people/consumers.

[the dude]

^please make a note of some other titles in the book section, realcity. apparently nobody reads around here.

i had harris at mac. he's great. also teach with his wife...equally great.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by BCTed

You can't think of any positive aspects to suburban life. Fine. If everyone was of the same opinion as you, then there would be no such thing as a suburb. But there clearly are people who choose to live in suburbs, and I believe that the items I listed ("false" or not) are some of the reasons for that choice.

If my entire list is so invalid and laughable, then perhaps you can tell me what it is that compels people to purchase suburban homes.

I have no clue, but I'm assuming advertising.
We're all suckers for the cute Leave it to Beaver family photos with snazzy slogans like "leave the city behind on Beaver Creek" or "Eagles Nest awaits you with nature at every turn".
Of course, the usual development consists of identical townhomes built to fall apart in less than 50 years. And of course, there is no difference between developments and no nature to be found in either Beaver Creek or Eagles Nest.
I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that developers usually name their projects for whatever they've just paved over or killed - Meadowlands (long gone), Eagles Nest (only dead or displaced ones) etc.....

Someone just said it above - creeping conformity.
Our society spends way to much time watching TV and have allowed our minds to be shaped by the blather of the advertisers and corporations. They tell us what we like and we all walk to the store and buy it.

[HAMRetrofit]

I liken this thread to a discussion with a fat kid about the harmful effects of fast food on the body's cardiovascular and digestive systems. The fat kid just will not catch on so there is no point in wasting my time.

[markbarbera]

So, I guess if we extend the analogy, any doctor that tells the fat kid that obeisity is going to make him sick and possibly kill him would be labelled elitist by some of the people posting here, much like the greenhouse effect naysayers, or the flat earth society.