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  #2121  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2019, 8:00 PM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
where and how would you do that? Sounds like a tall order and a tough job if you ask me.
Around Georgia. How? Around Pacific Blvd. How? Just asking. Thank you.
Couple lanes on the west of Quebec (divert traffic to Main), north of Pacific close Quebec entirely. City's making plans to make Water a pedestrian street, so adding tram tracks shouldn't be a problem... might still have to slow the trains down though.

Not even going to consider the Pacific branch or Stanley Park. Right now, without a ROW, it's a pipe dream within a pipe dream.
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  #2122  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 4:00 AM
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Good news and bad news:

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12-km-long streetcar network in downtown Vancouver and False Creek to cost $1 billion: city report

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The City of Vancouver recently completed an in-depth analysis that informs the steps needed to preserve the capability of building a 12-km-long streetcar network serving the Metro Core — the area encompassing the downtown Vancouver peninsula and Central Broadway Corridor.

...

Route One — spanning a length of 8.8 km — would run from SkyTrain’s future Arbutus Station to Chilco Street at the edge of Stanley Park, making a U-shaped journey along South False Creek before running through Chinatown, Gastown, and Coal Harbour. It would serve other key destinations such as Granville Island, SkyTrain Olympic Village Station, Science World, SkyTrain Main Street-Science World Station, and the Waterfront Station transit hub. It would also be in very close proximity to the new St. Paul’s Hospital campus in the False Creek Flats, and Canada Place and Vancouver Convention Centre.

Route Two, as conceptualized, is shorter and overlaps with Route One along Quebec Street between Prior Street and 1st Avenue. It would have a length of 3.6 km, running from SkyTrain’s future Great Northern Way-Emily Carr Station at Thornton Street to Drake Street east of Granville Street — serving North False Creek along Pacific Boulevard, with stops for BC Place Stadium and Rogers Arena, and SkyTrain Yaletown-Roundhouse Station.

The network would run at street level, sometimes sharing road space with vehicle traffic. In certain areas, the streetcar utilizes its own right-of-way, such as the short span of the Arbutus Greenway north of West Broadway, the existing South False Creek railway right-of-way between Granville Island and Olympic Village Station, and the 1st Avenue median between the Cambie Street Bridge and Quebec Street, which was retained for the potential future streetcar.

...

Given the scope of work, such a streetcar network would be constructed in phases.

The “minimal initial phase” is envisioned to revive the Olympic Line route — the temporary streetcar in place as a free shuttle between Granville Island and Olympic Village Station during the 2010 Winter Olympics. The free shuttle used two Bombardier streetcars from Brussels, but the consultants state at least three vehicles would be needed for regular operations.

...

However, the consultants deemed the more optimal initial phase to be from the Arbutus Greenway at Broadway to Science World, as it would be able to feed on the ridership of SkyTrain’s Arbutus Station, Olympic Village Station, and Main Street-Science World Station. The estimated cost for this full first phase, including eight vehicles, is about $500 million.

The end-to-end travel time for Route One’s entire 8.8-km length is 36 minutes with an average speed of 15 km/hr, while Route Two’s entire 3.6-km length is 15 minutes with an average speed of 14 km/hr.

These travel times are also based on a combined total of 26 stops, with each stop consisting of 35-metre-long platforms — slightly under the 40-metre length of most Canada Line platforms.

Both routes would operate with eight-minute frequencies during peak hours, and every 16 minutes during mid-day hours, with service hours lasting 19 to 20 hours each day. For the short shared overlapping span on Quebec Street, trains would run every four minutes.

At least 18 streetcar vehicles are necessary to reach these frequencies and meet the forecast passenger demand. An operations and maintenance facility for the network and its trains would likely require a large site in the False Creek Flats...

The 99 does 21.6 km/h, by the way, every 3-5 minutes. In traffic. If the segregated part really does cost just $500 million, I say we go from Arbutus to Science World and call the rest off until we have money for a tunnel.
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  #2123  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 4:24 AM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Good news and bad news:



The 99 does 21.6 km/h, by the way, every 3-5 minutes. In traffic. If the segregated part really does cost just $500 million, I say we go from Arbutus to Science World and call the rest off until we have money for a tunnel.
If it's gonna take up roadway, then just do a bus lane/segregated busway and buy more trolleybusses. Integrate it. Less variety of vehicles the better it is.
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  #2124  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 5:03 AM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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I understand the fantasy about having a streetcar network but I don't understand the logic of the route (a lot of those sections have lots of bus options)
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  #2125  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 5:26 AM
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Originally Posted by jollyburger View Post
I understand the fantasy about having a streetcar network but I don't understand the logic of the route (a lot of those sections have lots of bus options)
In theory, we're connecting all three SkyTrains at four points in what's basically a circle line, while relieving the feeder network with additional capacity and opening up a new transit corridor for development.

In practice, that now only applies to the Arbutus-Quebec segment; the rest is just splurging $600 million on an oversized trolley bus-slash-battering ram.

Last edited by Migrant_Coconut; Sep 17, 2021 at 5:56 AM.
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  #2126  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 5:36 AM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
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Originally Posted by jollyburger View Post
I understand the fantasy about having a streetcar network but I don't understand the logic of the route (a lot of those sections have lots of bus options)
If they wanna do some new tech, they could do a guided trolleybus with segregated roadway.
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  #2127  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 5:40 AM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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If they replaced all the CoV public housing on the south side of False Creek, densified it to 20-30 storey condos (market/affordable) then I would buy into a streetcar line.
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  #2128  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 5:50 AM
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Originally Posted by cganuelas1995 View Post
If they wanna do some new tech, they could do a guided trolleybus with segregated roadway.
Except the contract with CP specifies a train.
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  #2129  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 6:17 AM
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I have no problem whatsoever with protecting the right of way. But as a taxpayer I sure don't want to see money spent on this until there's a clear need for it. The routes in question can easily be served with buses for the next few decades at least. And by the time buses become inadequate I doubt an at-grade streetcar will enough of an upgrade to spend the money on compared to grade-separated rapid transit.
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  #2130  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 7:24 AM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Except the contract with CP specifies a train.
A specific type of train or can it be a rubber-tired train?
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  #2131  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 7:34 AM
ilikeredheads ilikeredheads is offline
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1 billion for a streetcar. Money well spent /s

That section along Georgia is gonna make commute to lions gate bridge even more fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cganuelas1995 View Post
A specific type of train or can it be a rubber-tired train?
a rubber tire train running at grade on street level? it's called a trolley bus. I think we have plenty of those...
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  #2132  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 7:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Good news and bad news:



The 99 does 21.6 km/h, by the way, every 3-5 minutes. In traffic. If the segregated part really does cost just $500 million, I say we go from Arbutus to Science World and call the rest off until we have money for a tunnel.
This routing kind of sucks?

To me it's much more obvious to have a streetcar loop from Waterfront Station down Pender to Georgia to Denman, then down Denman to Davie, then Davie to Burrard, then Burrard until Pender and back to Waterfront station. Then have a second line go down West 4th from Jericho Beach to Burrard, then Burrard to Waterfront Station. Potentially a 3rd line could go down Main St. Start at Oakridge and go down 41st to Main, then Main all the way down to Cordova, then Cordova through Gastown to Waterfront Station. Could also see a case for a streetcar down Commercial/Victoria and/or Nanaimo from the Kingsway to Hastings (ideally to meet up with a future Skytrain/LRT down Hastings).
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  #2133  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 1:43 PM
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This is a bad idea and is just doing a streetcar for the sake of doing a streetcar. We don't need another mode of transport, that just adds needless complexity and expense. This streetcar has essentially no benefit over a bus.
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  #2134  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 3:21 PM
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$1B in up front capital costs is a lot. I'm curious on the estimates for ongoing costs. If, like a busy Skytrain, fares more than cover the costs, it might be a reasonable expense. NEFC and other major developments could help cover some costs.

I do like the idea of connecting our star attraction (Stanley Park) to existing Skytrain lines.
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  #2135  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
$1B in up front capital costs is a lot. I'm curious on the estimates for ongoing costs. If, like a busy Skytrain, fares more than cover the costs, it might be a reasonable expense. NEFC and other major developments could help cover some costs.

I do like the idea of connecting our star attraction (Stanley Park) to existing Skytrain lines.
Does the city have data on traffic patterns to Stanley Park? I would assume more tourists spend their time on the False Creek side of downtown in Yaletown or at one of the two beaches, and go to Stanley Park from there.

I personally would like the route to go Arbutus > Granville > OV > Science World, and then follow Beach and Pacific to Stanley Park.

Again, this routing is based on what I would use, and it may not match demand.
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  #2136  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
Does the city have data on traffic patterns to Stanley Park? I would assume more tourists spend their time on the False Creek side of downtown in Yaletown or at one of the two beaches, and go to Stanley Park from there.

I personally would like the route to go Arbutus > Granville > OV > Science World, and then follow Beach and Pacific to Stanley Park.

Again, this routing is based on what I would use, and it may not match demand.
I'm not sure, I am thinking about cruise ship passengers hoping on to get to the park. There is an existing bus route of course.

Personally I would use it for Stanley Park and Granville Island (I live in Olympic Village) on rainy days or when I don't feel like biking. I'd also use it to get to the Canada Line at the poorly named OV station.

Does it have daily rush hour demand? Unclear. It certainly hits a remarkable amount of landmarks and other major transit stations in a small area.
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  #2137  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 4:26 PM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeredheads View Post
1 billion for a streetcar. Money well spent /s

That section along Georgia is gonna make commute to lions gate bridge even more fun!



a rubber tire train running at grade on street level? it's called a trolley bus. I think we have plenty of those...
I believe the Georgia section already has the right-of-way set aside. There's some oddly setback sidewalks after Cardero. The streetcar would likely just take up that setback.

You can also see the curve for the RoW at Georgia and Cardero.
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  #2138  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 4:47 PM
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They should abandon the terminology of "streetcar" and replace it with LRT or "urban LRT" like they did in Edmonton for their new line which averages twice the speed (35km/hr - ish?). Streetcar makes people think most of it isn't in its own ROW.

Edmonton's new 13km line has 11 stops cost $1.8 billion which includes maintenance yard, road and utility upgrades to build a ROW from scratch with elevated sections, a tunnel and bridge, and does end-to-end in 35-40 minutes.

About 18km is the current existing ROW from roughly Granville & 70th to Olympic Station. I always thought the full build-out was something like 25km?

City saying Arbutus to Science World in the existing ROW with 8 cars and maintenance yard is $500m. Think we can do 25km for $2b in 2025?

Last edited by GenWhy?; Sep 17, 2021 at 5:18 PM.
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  #2139  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 5:00 PM
madog222 madog222 is offline
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Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
They should abandon the terminology of "streetcar" and replace it with LRT or "urban LRT" like they did in Edmonton for their new line which averages twice the speed (35km/hr - ish?). Streetcar makes people think most of it isn't in its own ROW.

Edmonton's new 13km line has 11 stops cost $1.8 billion which includes road and utility upgrades to build a ROW from scratch with elevated sections, a tunnel and bridge, and does end-to-end in 35-40 minutes.

18km is the current existing ROW from roughly Granville & 70th to Olympic Station
Through the core this is definitely a streetcar.
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  #2140  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2021, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
They should abandon the terminology of "streetcar" and replace it with LRT...
Let us not forget that LRT stands for "Light Rapid Transit". There's nothing "rapid" about an at-grade streetcar that runs in mixed traffic. Even if it has a dedicated right of way and signal priority, it cannot travel quickly in a dense urban environment unless they're willing to fence it off and put in crossing gates, and that seems very, very unlikely.
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