Phoenix Area Low- and Mid-Rise Development Thread

[phoenixwillrise]

[QUOTE=Jjs5056;7256947]Is that sarcasm? This project is garbage, and yes, that photo of what looks to be the corner of a Target is what will front McDowell/Central. Mid-way along Central is a super-urban parking lot. The minimal retail spaces will be a much-needed (not) coffee house and a salon relocating from another part of downtown. And, of course, these won't be affordable to the artists, dancers, and actors surrounding the property.

I loved HX or Hoover's idea back in the day for attracting a Musical Instrument Museum into a mixed-use project on that site. You'd think they would at least try to work with their location as the connection between downtown and midtown's arts district, but... nah.[/QUOT

Without a doubt the City of Phoenix should have purchased that lot where Muse is going and rented it to the MIM Museum for a dollar a year or something. Great museum synergy could have been had by putting MIM there by the PHX Art Museum and the Heard. Total lack of foresight and not connecting the dots on that. And we wonder why we have urban sprawl?

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Is that sarcasm? This project is garbage, and yes, that photo of what looks to be the corner of a Target is what will front McDowell/Central. Mid-way along Central is a super-urban parking lot. The minimal retail spaces will be a much-needed (not) coffee house and a salon relocating from another part of downtown. And, of course, these won't be affordable to the artists, dancers, and actors surrounding the property.

I loved HX or Hoover's idea back in the day for attracting a Musical Instrument Museum into a mixed-use project on that site. You'd think they would at least try to work with their location as the connection between downtown and midtown's arts district, but... nah.

I am so sick of hearing you guys whine about coffee shops. I just got back from Chicago, half the retails is coffee shops. Relax. If the market supports it they will survive, if not, they will go out of business and something else will move in. Too many people here trying to dictate what only markets can.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

Without a doubt the City of Phoenix should have purchased that lot where Muse is going and rented it to the MIM Museum for a dollar a year or something. Great museum synergy could have been had by putting MIM there by the PHX Art Museum and the Heard. Total lack of foresight and not connecting the dots on that. And we wonder why we have urban sprawl?

Synergy? In Phoenix? Ha. I've given up on even the simplest ways of accomplishing that. Building a retail plaza across from the historic Luhrs' retail arcade, you say? Well, we'll just put our back-of-house and garage ramps on that side. Can't have a 2-sided retail boulevard!

The City could have at least extended Almeria through the plot, and RFP'd the new parcels to avoid what is basically a suburban superblock. And, a parking lot adjacent to the LRT station? Come on. Not that anyone from the single-use Edison will ever be walking to McDowell to grab a cup of coffee anyway. Midtown is really just a Biltmore connected via light rail, and despite their words to the contrary, the city is doing nothing to try and change that.

PHXFlyer- Lighten up. Every block in NYC has at least 3 coffee/deli options. It's just disappointing when a limited amount of retail is available and it is filled with something that is already offered in many other places. And, it just adds to the laziness of the project when it could have had arts-related uses and the like. I do know I can't control the market, but I can be disappointed in lack of imagination.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

I don't recall seeing the rendering posted anywhere. So, here's McKinley Row, the project that's getting built on top of the huge dirt pile at the NWC of McKinley and 4th Ave.

Hmm, so it really is just an extension of the 3rd ave townhomes. That was a nice infill project, but I would've liked something a little more creative here. Live/work or even office space (lawyers, dentists, etc.) along McKinley would have been nice, but it beats a dirt lot and is visually a good fit for the area. Hopefully, the property they won in the RFP will be a little more creative?

[combusean]

I've felt that there was an abundance of small office/professional space in that area of 4th and McKinley that wasn't getting leased, but I could be wrong.

Providing parking for something like that changes the whole picture dramatically. Townhomes are easy to build and park--something with more uses would have necessitated more icky surface parking or below grade parking, in the latter case it wouldn't have really been a townhouse project anymore and be much more expensive to build. 3rd Avenue Lofts have all sold out, so the question of demand in that area for a product where there's not a lot of units is easily answered.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

I am so sick of hearing you guys whine about coffee shops. I just got back from Chicago, half the retails is coffee shops. Relax. If the market supports it they will survive, if not, they will go out of business and something else will move in. Too many people here trying to dictate what only markets can.

Thank you.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by combusean

I've felt that there was an abundance of small office/professional space in that area of 4th and McKinley that wasn't getting leased, but I could be wrong.

There are quite a few small office buildings and small apartment complexes that are short on parking. I have 1300ft and the two buildings next to me owned by the same guy are probably each double that size, so let's say he has about 7,000sq feet. We have 16 parking spaces, that shouldn't be enough but somehow it is. Under-leased.

Meanwhile Reister has next to no parking at his building and 90% of the cars parked up and down McKinley are his employees, but his office is moving very soon. He already sold his building on the SWC of 3rd and McKinley and when he sells the other the whole area will be a lot quieter. The lot on the SWC of 4th and McKinley is overflow parking for Embassy that I've heard has been on and off the market.

I'm rambling because I'm sleepy but what I'm trying to say is if everything in the neighborhood were leased (office and apartments) then the parking situation there would be dire because private lots are all too small. The good thing though is no one has a fully leased building.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

There are quite a few small office buildings and small apartment complexes that are short on parking. I have 1300ft and the two buildings next to me owned by the same guy are probably each double that size, so let's say he has about 7,000sq feet. We have 16 parking spaces, that shouldn't be enough but somehow it is. Under-leased.

Meanwhile Reister has next to no parking at his building and 90% of the cars parked up and down McKinley are his employees, but his office is moving very soon. He already sold his building on the SWC of 3rd and McKinley and when he sells the other the whole area will be a lot quieter. The lot on the SWC of 4th and McKinley is overflow parking for Embassy that I've heard has been on and off the market.

I'm rambling because I'm sleepy but what I'm trying to say is if everything in the neighborhood were leased (office and apartments) then the parking situation there would be dire because private lots are all too small. The good thing though is no one has a fully leased building.

I don't see that as a major obstacle. As Phoenix continues to grow its population downtown, these businesses will either be forced to see their properties due to lack of demand due to lack or parking and relocate to office towers with parking, or will attract more employees and customers that live in the area and walk or take transit. I know it's a hard concept to grasp for many, but let's face it, that's what drives more demand for housing downtown. It is a reality in San Francisco, New York, Seattle, Chicago and other major cities around the world. We need to move in that direction, not construct more parking garages.

[combusean]

FWIW, I looked up some of the specs on the 3rd Ave Townhomes and the patio facing units were "offices" or "bonus rooms" or "studios." I remember at least one of the townhomes in Roosevelt Square was the office for some professional studio or another and it obviously didn't look like it was built for that, and my old condo allowed small signage on exterior walls.

I have a feeling this is the sort of thing that solves itself over time. Ground floor space will in theory become increasingly more valuable over time so enough commercial landlords buy a unit, change the interiors easily enough so you rent out the retail and rent out the top floors separately with 1 parking space for 2 bedrooms just like in built out cities.

[Jjs5056]

I actually do remember hearing live/work being referenced for the 3rd Ave project in an article once.

I hadn't considered parking, but from what I thought, the market looked pretty decent for offices? I just feel like the west part of downtown is developing strangely and would have liked to see McKinley be sort of a small main street because right now, there isn't any concentrated area of commercial- Roosevelt turns into a (very nice looking) boring residential block, and Fillmore is still so isolated for anything to evolve there yet. Anyway, maybe that's fine... I obviously have an obsession with retail blocks and I really like the idea of a neighborhood main street running between the 7's with live/work and condos like the one Moira is in. But, these are attractive, well-designed, face both streets which is nice, and have the potential for live/work at some point as you say.

I wish PHX didn't suck at providing site plans. I really want to know what their 2nd-3rd Ave RFP project looks like. I read somewhere that they own the apartments adjacent, so they'd have a pretty sizeable assemblage.

In re: parking, who owns that heinous brown monster on 2nd Ave/VB? No way is that filled to capacity? I'd rather it be knocked down than used as district parking, but... otherwise, please no more garages. Even the mixed use ones range from eyesores (VB/1st Ave) to disastrous (Monroe-Adams/3rd-4th Ave which swallows the Masonic Temple). With all of that vacant land, I hope the majority is underground.

[combusean]

I think that with whatever happens with the Pappas lot next to Alta Fillmore is going to pretty much solidify that as the western core, and there's better development opportunities there like the NAC owned recovery building on 2nd Avenue on the other side of Circle K, O'Neill Printing, the one Phoenix College building with its acres of parking, that big parking lot on 3rd Ave, and maybe that huge Circle K will sell out with a ground floor lease in something like the Londen Center. So I think McKinley is fine being low-key.

Wells Fargo owns the gargage on 2nd Avenue. That garage wouldn't annoy me so much as the fact that it's totally private to WF employees. I wish CoP would buy it so things on that side of town can better develop.

The only city-owned land around 2nd and 3rd Avenue and McKinley is literally what's vacant, the dirt to the south of the apartment complex and the church-owned building, then the city owns the vacant lot directly north of the church building. I have no idea how they could remotely cram 100 units there.

The reason there's no site plan for it is because it's probably not public yet, altho you could just as easily call and ask.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by combusean

I think that with whatever happens with the Pappas lot next to Alta Fillmore is going to pretty much solidify that as the western core, and there's better development opportunities there like the NAC owned recovery building on 2nd Avenue on the other side of Circle K, O'Neill Printing, the one Phoenix College building with its acres of parking, that big parking lot on 3rd Ave, and maybe that huge Circle K will sell out with a ground floor lease in something like the Londen Center. So I think McKinley is fine being low-key.

Wells Fargo owns the gargage on 2nd Avenue. That garage wouldn't annoy me so much as the fact that it's totally private to WF employees. I wish CoP would buy it so things on that side of town can better develop.

The only city-owned land around 2nd and 3rd Avenue and McKinley is literally what's vacant, the dirt to the south of the apartment complex and the church-owned building, then the city owns the vacant lot directly north of the church building. I have no idea how they could remotely cram 100 units there.

The reason there's no site plan for it is because it's probably not public yet, altho you could just as easily call and ask.

I guess that was kind of my point - south of Fillmore is essentially a blank slate compared to the fairly dense part of Roosevelt to the north. It'll be a while until that stretch of Fillmore gets built out. Also, all development in the area will have to be multifamily and hopefully, pretty dense and tall multifamily closer to VB; to the north, single-family homes dominate. Obviously, people will make do - I just thought it would be nice for McKinley to have had a selection of services for that corner of downtown.

Speaking of Fillmore, do you happen to know when and how Rio Salado CC built its branch on Fillmore/7th Ave? I never noticed it until this summer and I couldn't believe something so completely anti-urban was built fairly recently. MCCCD's presence downtown really pisses me off; these limited satellite branches are better than nothing I suppose, but a full downtown campus would be such a better anchor for revitalizing WVB. Instead of a suburban Rio CC, and taking up space in warehouses that could have been used by local businesses for GCC, they could have built out the land they owned that's now part of the Fillmore RFP, or purchased VB frontage, and helped connect Grand Ave to downtown, provide job services for residents, affordable housing/dorms, a library, etc. 3-4 mixed use buildings could have attracted retail and maybe improvements to make that stretch of VB walkable?

Yes, I know the land that was RFP'd that MetroWest won on McKinley, but I had heard that their proposal included 1) purchase and/or ownership of the existing apartments, and 2) a community garden in Roosevelt Park. That led me to believe a plan did exist, and that the project will extend north on the west side.

Random questions regarding parking structures:
1a) Why does WF own that parking garage on 2nd Ave? Overflow from their tower? If so, that's annoying as that tower site is one of the worst parts of downtown- they couldn't have built a large enough garage on what was essentially a full city block? Could they move all parking to the 2nd Ave garage, demo the one on Adams and build something acceptable for 2015? At the very least, there should be a nice, classy restaurant with a patio opening to the Orpheum.
1b) If not for the tower, why do they own it and is there any chance you see of them potentially selling it? The thing is mammoth, and if sold to the City, maybe we could stop hearing the "no parking" BS. Aside from the sheer size, my issue with it is how it adds to a huge dead zone that divides E and W VB. If affordable or market rate units were added to the garage, maybe the Firestone Building could be adapted into a restaurant/retail site, and industrial type lofts built on the way to the stuff happening on 4th Ave?
2) The City owns that stupid blue-ish building on 1st Ave/VB, right? Once Valley Metro moves to Central Station, will it be pretty much empty? I wish the RFP were issued to include that site; I'd much rather a 32-story mixed use tower there not blocking views, etc.
3) US Bank Tower owners also own the garage on VB/1st Ave; another wtf? That tower takes up the entire length of 1st Ave and doesn't have adequate parking? I don't get it. Do you know how much it is utilized and whether they lease space out? It's insane that there are so many private structures with such vacancies. Would it ever be in their interest to redevelop that corner? Obviously, it would have to max out at about 5 stories because of 44M, but it could have a tall, slender tower on its north side... with the County refusing to lease the Security Building and the empty space in this garage, this stretch really sucks.
4) Did the Chase garage open long with the tower or was it added later? As if the tower didn't waste enough space, ugh. Again, idk if you even have a clue, but do property owners ever sell/lease-back/renovate garages? That is such a poorly used lot; I wish the City, if possible, would spend time on figuring out how to mitigate urban killers like these garages instead of selling off every inch of property they can.

I'd love to see a new, iconic Symphony Hall here with maybe an art museum (MIM branch? ha), retail, and offices. Its current building is hideous and swallowed up by the CC. Extend the CC where the Hall stands now with a "pin"-like observation tower at the terminus of Adams, and go to town with the south CC site.

[Jjs5056]

re: the Renaissance, the plan is for all sides to get facade enhancements, but only Adams will get ROW improvements. The arches will be replaced with fin-like shade structures to mimic the hotel facade, and there will be space for 4 tenants along Adams, one of which will remain the Icon Lounge- which I'm cool with; I actually read good reviews and it would be nice for it to become a nightlife spot instead of a lobby bar. Not enough room for a brewery or dance bar/club, but ideas that have been tossed around are an LGO concept, 24-hour eatery, local boutiques/salons (dryBar, etc.), and - I think I mentioned this earlier? - a sampling of top Phx restaurants like the new Sky Harbor Terminal: Matt's, Lolo's, a Sam Fox restaurant, etc.

The winner of the Marriott contest is no longer opening downtown; they found a location in Arcadia that was a better or some other PR reason. Unfortunately, 1st Street will just get an entrance makeover with the new drop-off. I was hoping that the corner of Monroe would be renovated to connect to the Hilton, etc., but that isn't happening. At least the tenant on the corner of Adams/Central will have greater visibility without the arches, and hopefully will connect well with the tenants at the Hilton next door.

The City needs to RFP the corner lot ASAP; Starwood - especially Aloft - is expanding rapidly. Can we please resurrect this? whitneybellperry.com/multi-family/aloft-hotel/ And, obviously there were no bites on the 1st RFP for the garage retail, but they need to market it more aggressively. Restaurants are opening all over town; steps from the CC shouldn't be this difficult. Not gonna happen, but maybe RFP the entire property? Even if an Aloft were to be built, there are very few lifestyle hotels downtown - an Element or Marriott AC would be better than that brown blob.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

2) The City owns that stupid blue-ish building on 1st Ave/VB, right? Once Valley Metro moves to Central Station, will it be pretty much empty? I wish the RFP were issued to include that site; I'd much rather a 32-story mixed use tower there not blocking views, etc.

MAG is headquartered in that blue-ish building... at one point about 6 years ago they were thinking about building their own building somewhere downtown (I feel like just a bit north of where they are now), but that never went anywhere.

[azsunsurfer]

How did I miss this beautiful project??

http://roselawgroupreporter.com/2015.../#!prettyPhoto

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

re: the Renaissance, the plan is for all sides to get facade enhancements, but only Adams will get ROW improvements. The arches will be replaced with fin-like shade structures to mimic the hotel facade, and there will be space for 4 tenants along Adams, one of which will remain the Icon Lounge- which I'm cool with; I actually read good reviews and it would be nice for it to become a nightlife spot instead of a lobby bar. Not enough room for a brewery or dance bar/club, but ideas that have been tossed around are an LGO concept, 24-hour eatery, local boutiques/salons (dryBar, etc.), and - I think I mentioned this earlier? - a sampling of top Phx restaurants like the new Sky Harbor Terminal: Matt's, Lolo's, a Sam Fox restaurant, etc.

A hair salon -- Youngbloods -- has been in the space on the corner of Adams and 1st Ave for years. So far the owner has been able to hold onto the space.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Random questions regarding parking structures:
1a) Why does WF own that parking garage on 2nd Ave? Overflow from their tower? If so, that's annoying as that tower site is one of the worst parts of downtown- they couldn't have built a large enough garage on what was essentially a full city block? Could they move all parking to the 2nd Ave garage, demo the one on Adams and build something acceptable for 2015? At the very least, there should be a nice, classy restaurant with a patio opening to the Orpheum.
1b) If not for the tower, why do they own it and is there any chance you see of them potentially selling it? The thing is mammoth, and if sold to the City, maybe we could stop hearing the "no parking" BS. Aside from the sheer size, my issue with it is how it adds to a huge dead zone that divides E and W VB. If affordable or market rate units were added to the garage, maybe the Firestone Building could be adapted into a restaurant/retail site, and industrial type lofts built on the way to the stuff happening on 4th Ave?
2) The City owns that stupid blue-ish building on 1st Ave/VB, right? Once Valley Metro moves to Central Station, will it be pretty much empty? I wish the RFP were issued to include that site; I'd much rather a 32-story mixed use tower there not blocking views, etc.
3) US Bank Tower owners also own the garage on VB/1st Ave; another wtf? That tower takes up the entire length of 1st Ave and doesn't have adequate parking? I don't get it. Do you know how much it is utilized and whether they lease space out? It's insane that there are so many private structures with such vacancies. Would it ever be in their interest to redevelop that corner? Obviously, it would have to max out at about 5 stories because of 44M, but it could have a tall, slender tower on its north side... with the County refusing to lease the Security Building and the empty space in this garage, this stretch really sucks.
4) Did the Chase garage open long with the tower or was it added later? As if the tower didn't waste enough space, ugh. Again, idk if you even have a clue, but do property owners ever sell/lease-back/renovate garages? That is such a poorly used lot; I wish the City, if possible, would spend time on figuring out how to mitigate urban killers like these garages instead of selling off every inch of property they can.

I'd love to see a new, iconic Symphony Hall here with maybe an art museum (MIM branch? ha), retail, and offices. Its current building is hideous and swallowed up by the CC. Extend the CC where the Hall stands now with a "pin"-like observation tower at the terminus of Adams, and go to town with the south CC site.

As a former IT Tech for Wells Fargo, I can officially say that the main garage next to the tower was NEVER filled to capacity and was not even close to being filled for the nearly year I parked there. The top 3 upper levels were always empty except a few cars here and there that didn't want their cars dented. So i don't understand the need for so much parking for WF. Yes, they have plenty of room to sell the garages.

[prairieman]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

The City needs to RFP the corner lot ASAP; Starwood - especially Aloft - is expanding rapidly. Can we please resurrect this? whitneybellperry.com/multi-family/aloft-hotel/ And, obviously there were no bites on the 1st RFP for the garage retail, but they need to market it more aggressively. Restaurants are opening all over town; steps from the CC shouldn't be this difficult. Not gonna happen, but maybe RFP the entire property? Even if an Aloft were to be built, there are very few lifestyle hotels downtown - an Element or Marriott AC would be better than that brown blob.

I would say that anything Starwood is going to be on hold for the time being, as they are being purchased by Marriott.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

MAG is headquartered in that blue-ish building... at one point about 6 years ago they were thinking about building their own building somewhere downtown (I feel like just a bit north of where they are now), but that never went anywhere.

Perhaps the office space being built at Central Station? It would make sense if all tenants of that building are public entities to move them all to the new project. And, voila, Mackay gets another property to RFP. Why public buildings have to be so uninviting - god forbid a cafe be built somewhere inside those mile-wide setbacks - I will never know, but a mixed-use highrise there would look great from a skyline/park POV, and be a good connection between the park/ASU area, Monroe/Adams convention area, and West Van Buren.

prairieman- I had read about Starwood's aggressive expansion effort AFTER Marriott took over; do you think the article was just outdated?

[prairieman]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

prairieman- I had read about Starwood's aggressive expansion effort AFTER Marriott took over; do you think the article was just outdated?

Unknown. The announcement of intent is only a month old. This still has to go through regulators and the two will still be operating as separate companies for a while (Think of the American/US Air deal). Even though this is a done deal on certain levels, the deal is not necessarily done. With most mergers between companies this size, any current projects are usually finished out but anything on the boards is carefully scrutinized and usually put on hold until the financials are taken care of. Accountants hate to see moving pieces during a merger. Once the investors are happy with the numbers, then projects become more viable. But since this is a relatively new merger, that still gives Starwood time to move on some projects, in case the merger goes sideways (There is always that possibility).