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[philatonian]

Originally Posted by R5Ryder

EDIT: what's anyone's thoughs of a "Liberty 3" in the 1200-1300 range? Obviously it's not a possibility, but I would be in favor of it if the proposal ever came about (which it won't.)

I don't think it's impossible. It doesn't even necessarily have to be "Liberty 3" to be iconic. I love the height of both Comcast buildings, but what I didn't like was how they stole the drama from our skyline by replacing Liberty Place's spire with a boring box. It would be interesting to see something exciting rise above Market East. It wouldn't even need to be as tall as Comcast Center or the CITC to really impact the skyline.

[Guiltyspark]

ACC looks like a poor mans 2 WTC to me. Also, damn you or making that diagram picture with the extra setback. It looks so much better that way. Now I wish that is what we were getting.

[Insoluble]

Yeah, I have to agree with most on here that the CITC blows the old ACC proposal out of the park in terms of design. It may not have the same height, but the design of CITC is world class and truly innovative. I think the PSFS comparison someone made above is a good one, this has the potential to be a very influential building. As tall as it was, the ACC was somewhat awkward and bland. I would have loved the height, but I'm glad this is being built instead.

[philatonian]

Originally Posted by Guiltyspark

ACC looks like a poor mans 2 WTC to me. Also, damn you or making that diagram picture with the extra setback. It looks so much better that way. Now I wish that is what we were getting.

The extra setback reminds me a little bit of City Center Tower...

[Kidphilly]

^^^ That is considerably larger than the Ritz Carlton

[apetrella802]

Hotel Industry take on new 4Seasons atop CITChttp://www.hotelchatter.com/tag/Philadelphia%20Hotels

[apetrella802]

correction

http://www.hotelchatter.com/tag/Philadelphia%20Hotels

[alasi]

Would love it if they built the Center City Tower at either 13th and Market or the Chestnut St side of the Girard square. And while they're at it, Bridgeman View Condos at the Disney hole. Talk about a game changer.

[R5Ryder]

Originally Posted by eliasrapp98

1. You can't say ACC had a better economic plan when it didn't have a SINGLE tenant.

2. Ask me, ACC was super bland. It had no flavor and dominated a well put together skyline way too much.

3. I don't want my iconic tower in front of my other skyscrapers. It would block more buildings than CITC.

4. You would rather this not be built??? Just because it's not the best use of space in your mind doesn't mean we should just wait another 10-15 years until a better proposal comes up. You build this, let in fill in that area do it's thing and keep on trucking.

5. This building is bringing a. Tons of jobs, b. Sets up a full NBC move to Philly, c. It brings TONS of rich tourists to the city for the new Four Seasons, e. Sets a standard in Philly for innovation as this building is supposed to be like a vertical Silicon Valley.

To the Liberty 3 thing, I'd LOVE that. Maybe on Rittenhouse Square where Castleway is supposed to be built. Liberty 1 and 2 are possibly my favorite buildings in the USA. I love their design and they bring back great memories for me. A 3rd building in that same metal/glass spire/triangular shaped style but 1200 feet or more would be AMAZING.

1. I didn't make any point about the financials.
4. I never said that.
5. Nice speech, but you're arguing against yourself. Again, never made any points about anything other than aesthetics.

[R5Ryder]

Originally Posted by philatonian

I don't think it's impossible. It doesn't even necessarily have to be "Liberty 3" to be iconic. I love the height of both Comcast buildings, but what I didn't like was how they stole the drama from our skyline by replacing Liberty Place's spire with a boring box. It would be interesting to see something exciting rise above Market East. It wouldn't even need to be as tall as Comcast Center or the CITC to really impact the skyline.

Part of me thinks that the boring box actually enhances the liberties, since the contrast serves to draw even more attention to their details.

As for Market East, until something changes that rids the area of the pawn shops, cash for gold shops, knock-off electronics shops, and the general riff raff that comes along with the convention center, I can't see it as becoming a meaningfull part of the CBD. Especially not with that Market 8 proposal, which IMO will make Market East even worse of a place. It's a shame that people come in to town for conventions or conferences and for many, that's their lasting memory of Philadelphia.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by R5Ryder

Part of me thinks that the boring box actually enhances the liberties, since the contrast serves to draw even more attention to their details.

As for Market East, until something changes that rids the area of the pawn shops, cash for gold shops, knock-off electronics shops, and the general riff raff that comes along with the convention center, I can't see it as becoming a meaningfull part of the CBD. Especially not with that Market 8 proposal, which IMO will make Market East even worse of a place. It's a shame that people come in to town for conventions or conferences and for many, that's their lasting memory of Philadelphia.

If any of the three of Market 8, the gallery residential towers, or the Girard Square development happens the area will change immediately. If two of them happen I think in 10 years that part of Philly won't be recognizable because of how much growth can happen there. The zoning allows for a lot of density in the area.

[Insoluble]

Originally Posted by R5Ryder

1. I didn't make any point about the financials.
4. I never said that.
5. Nice speech, but you're arguing against yourself. Again, never made any points about anything other than aesthetics.

I suspect that this post was aimed more at wanderer34 than you.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

...
I still don't see how the CITC is better than the ACC, considering the ACC had the better design, had the better economical plan (pension fund plus 50% of office space would've been leased to the major tenant as opposed to the Comcast Center, where 90% is leased; similar to how the Sears Tower started out and we know what happened after Sears left the building), and the aesthetics were better. But I guess that's just how Philly is: always looking to be mediocre!!!!!

The underlined above is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by R5Ryder

Part of me thinks that the boring box actually enhances the liberties, since the contrast serves to draw even more attention to their details.

As for Market East, until something changes that rids the area of the pawn shops, cash for gold shops, knock-off electronics shops, and the general riff raff that comes along with the convention center, I can't see it as becoming a meaningfull part of the CBD. Especially not with that Market 8 proposal, which IMO will make Market East even worse of a place. It's a shame that people come in to town for conventions or conferences and for many, that's their lasting memory of Philadelphia.

As for Market East, I think the gaping surface lots on Market and Chestnut and the numerous vacancies are more of a problem than the existing shops. There's nothing wrong with having retail that caters to a mix of incomes. Check cashing places are terrible in their predatory business model, but are there any even left in this area? The big problem with Market East isn't what's there currently, it's what isn't there. There are many significant buildings that are vacant or mostly vacant. There are massive surface lots. And the gallery is just a huge blank wall an utterly fails as an urban building.

I agree though that Market 8 has just as much potential to make things worse as it does to make things better. If their projections are off in terms of people and revenue, we could be looking at adding a bunch of retail spots and a hotel without many new patrons. That would just cannibalize from the existing market and probably lead to more vacancy and blight. It seems very unlikely that the Gaming Board will pick Market 8 though based on recent news proposals and i suspect that this one will be dead by the end of the year.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by Insoluble

I agree though that Market 8 has just as much potential to make things worse as it does to make things better. If their projections are off in terms of people and revenue, we could be looking at adding a bunch of retail spots and a hotel without many new patrons. That would just cannibalize from the existing market and probably lead to more vacancy and blight. It seems very unlikely that the Gaming Board will pick Market 8 though based on recent news proposals and i suspect that this one will be dead by the end of the year.

I think the area has more then enough demand for a hotel and nice retail at this spot. Any new patrons from the convention crowd would be an added bonus. The other thing to remember is Center City is going to be dramatically different by the time Market 8 would open. Both FMC and CITC will be built along with over 1,000 new 4-5 star hotel rooms. Add in all of the highrise residential and the Center City Philadelphia market that the retail and hotel open up to will be dramatically improved from where it is today.

[TheOldMan]

Originally Posted by philatonian

The extra setback reminds me a little bit of City Center Tower...

Easily my favorite proposal/vision when it comes to super-talls proposed for Philly. Would love to see it built, but somewhere east of Broad Street vs in the central core.

[mmikeyphilly]

Originally Posted by TheOldMan

Easily my favorite proposal/vision when it comes to super-talls proposed for Philly. Would love to see it built, but somewhere east of Broad Street vs in the central core.

I definitely liked that proposal, as well. WOW, 6 setbacks and 1,000 ft. tall. It would have been our first Super Tall. So many decent proposals were knocked down in this city over the years. Hopefully this one, and the proposal at 17th & Vine come on board again. I remember BNY Mellon Center was cut by 6 floors. If they had kept original design, it would have been tied for first place when One Liberty was built.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Insoluble

Yeah, I have to agree with most on here that the CITC blows the old ACC proposal out of the park in terms of design. It may not have the same height, but the design of CITC is world class and truly innovative. I think the PSFS comparison someone made above is a good one, this has the potential to be a very influential building. As tall as it was, the ACC was somewhat awkward and bland. I would have loved the height, but I'm glad this is being built instead.

Just what I figured: the CITC blows when it comes to design !!!!! I know everybody's a critic but the CITC doesn't even seem like the tallest and most prominent building in this city by it's proposals. The spire only cheapens it more plus it's going to be mostly a corporate building. It copies off the ACC in a lot of ways (hotel, retail space, concourse), but it looks too cheap, especially for a super tall. I'm afraid this building won't look as good as it's proposal and it especially won't look better than the ACC if you ask me!!!!!

[eliasrapp98]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Just what I figured: the CITC blows when it comes to design !!!!! I know everybody's a critic but the CITC doesn't even seem like the tallest and most prominent building in this city by it's proposals. The spire only cheapens it more plus it's going to be mostly a corporate building. It copies off the ACC in a lot of ways (hotel, retail space, concourse), but it looks too cheap, especially for a super tall. I'm afraid this building won't look as good as it's proposal and it especially won't look better than the ACC if you ask me!!!!!

So ok... It's the 2nd tallest building. Whatever. Also you can't compare it to ACC. That was never going to be built. And never was.

[Flyers2001]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Just what I figured: the CITC blows when it comes to design !!!!! I know everybody's a critic but the CITC doesn't even seem like the tallest and most prominent building in this city by it's proposals. The spire only cheapens it more plus it's going to be mostly a corporate building. It copies off the ACC in a lot of ways (hotel, retail space, concourse), but it looks too cheap, especially for a super tall. I'm afraid this building won't look as good as it's proposal and it especially won't look better than the ACC if you ask me!!!!!

Do you know who Norman Foster is? If you do, you should know that he does not do cheap buildings.

He has a track record of the final project looking better than the proposals.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

Do you know who Norman Foster is? If you do, you should know that he does not do cheap buildings.

He has a track record of the final project looking better than the proposals.

I'm not referring to the cost of the building, but I'm referring to the simple design. It's not what I would consider inspirational!!!!! Just another bland office tower!!!!!

[Plokoon11]

^ What is considered inspirational?