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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2020, 6:50 PM
CityTech CityTech is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The feds regulate the railways, they can set whatever track prioritization rules they want.

The real obstacle is the amount of rail freight in Canada is so large. Canada carries more tonne km of freight than the entire EU.
IMO we do need something like Network Rail, so it can plan ways to accommodate our large amounts of freight traffic in a way less disruptive to passenger travel. An example is the removal of the former freight railway from Sudbury to Ottawa, which caused more freight traffic to be routed along the main Toronto-Montreal passenger route. From the POV of CN or CP (can't remember who owned that track) this is harmless because this move cut their costs and they have no reason to care that it increased delays for passenger trains. But a Network Rail type agency would have recognized the value of having freight trains bypass routes with high passenger demand, and instead focused on having as much freight traffic as possible go through that route to keep the main passenger one clear.
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2020, 8:11 PM
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It pertains to at least 2 provinces.
The Via thread was the national one and now its just a regional one. That was my point. . But really i don't care just thought i'd be a perfectionist.
The Toronto and Montreal subsections are a ghost town despite the population and the endless number of things to talk about.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2020, 9:17 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
IMO we do need something like Network Rail, so it can plan ways to accommodate our large amounts of freight traffic in a way less disruptive to passenger travel.
Never going to happen. Freight operators will never agree to that that kind of track sharing. Simple as that.

And we don't have enough national passenger trackage to necessitate a Network Rail type of organization.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2020, 2:09 AM
acottawa acottawa is online now
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Originally Posted by CityTech View Post
IMO we do need something like Network Rail, so it can plan ways to accommodate our large amounts of freight traffic in a way less disruptive to passenger travel. An example is the removal of the former freight railway from Sudbury to Ottawa, which caused more freight traffic to be routed along the main Toronto-Montreal passenger route. From the POV of CN or CP (can't remember who owned that track) this is harmless because this move cut their costs and they have no reason to care that it increased delays for passenger trains. But a Network Rail type agency would have recognized the value of having freight trains bypass routes with high passenger demand, and instead focused on having as much freight traffic as possible go through that route to keep the main passenger one clear.


Were they ever routing trans-Canada freight through that line? When the line was open I never saw those big 100 car freight trains from Western Canada rumbling through Ottawa. It seems likely that significant upgrades would have been necessary, and a Network Rail type agency still would have a limited budget.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2020, 6:51 PM
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Were they ever routing trans-Canada freight through that line? When the line was open I never saw those big 100 car freight trains from Western Canada rumbling through Ottawa. It seems likely that significant upgrades would have been necessary, and a Network Rail type agency still would have a limited budget.
CN may not have, but I believe CP did, on their northern route to Smiths Falls. Trains would then continue on to Montreal via their Winchester Sub (which runs just south of Ottawa, practically along its boarder). As I noted in the Ottawa VIA Rail thread, with CP's northern route gone, they recently reduced the Winchester Sub to single track, since the only route they have west of Smiths Falls (the Belleville Sub) is also only single track, so the extra capacity was no longer necessary.
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2020, 4:50 PM
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 19, 2020, 5:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Pretty amazing a country so huge but live all huddled together there.
I'd like to see the hottest place in the country Lytton see a little growth. I'd live there if i wasnt still working.
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2020, 1:42 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Always boggles my mind how little is invested in the transport on such an important corridor. There is no other G7 country without high speed rail on their major population corridors. And none come close to having the half their population in a single corridor/region.

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Pretty amazing a country so huge but live all huddled together there.
I'd like to see the hottest place in the country Lytton see a little growth. I'd live there if i wasnt still working.
Not amazing at all. It's one of the most temperate regions in the country and was close to waterways during our early history.
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2020, 2:54 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Always boggles my mind how little is invested in the transport on such an important corridor. There is no other G7 country without high speed rail on their major population corridors. And none come close to having the half their population in a single corridor/region.



Not amazing at all. It's one of the most temperate regions in the country and was close to waterways during our early history.
Well, the UK does not yet have proper HSR (except to France) despite a much greater population density. Still much better than the Corridor though.
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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2020, 4:30 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Well, the UK does not yet have proper HSR (except to France) despite a much greater population density. Still much better than the Corridor though.
High Speed Rail is dramatically less prevalent in Europe than most folks here believe.

However, the absence of 200 km/h fast and electrified intercity trains operating at least every hour in the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal triangle is indeed shocking to European visitors...
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2020, 7:05 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Well, the UK does not yet have proper HSR (except to France) despite a much greater population density. Still much better than the Corridor though.
Neither does the US. They have one “high speed” route that has an average speed of 68mph (when Via used to run express trains they had higher average speeds) and one route under construction (which connects to zero population centres).
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2020, 7:04 PM
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Neither does the US. They have one “high speed” route that has an average speed of 68mph (when Via used to run express trains they had higher average speeds) and one route under construction (which connects to zero population centres).
Yes for sure..Both countries are lagging..Heck, all of the Americas are well behind Europe and Asia in that regard..But hey..Maybe we'll do one better then HSR in the future and go with that new fangled Hyper loop or whatever it's called?..The one that is proposed for the Edmonton - Calgary corridor that I read on here recently..there is no real infrastructure in North America for HSR other then maybe R.O.W's in place, so with such a clean slate, we can perhaps go with the latest tech and leap frog HSR altogether..It would be like purchasing a latest I-phone versus an earlier version..That slightly older tech being 200km/hr..rail.

Last edited by Razor; Sep 20, 2020 at 7:21 PM.
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2020, 8:38 PM
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Yes for sure..Both countries are lagging..Heck, all of the Americas are well behind Europe and Asia in that regard..But hey..Maybe we'll do one better then HSR in the future and go with that new fangled Hyper loop or whatever it's called?..The one that is proposed for the Edmonton - Calgary corridor that I read on here recently..there is no real infrastructure in North America for HSR other then maybe R.O.W's in place, so with such a clean slate, we can perhaps go with the latest tech and leap frog HSR altogether..It would be like purchasing a latest I-phone versus an earlier version..That slightly older tech being 200km/hr..rail.
You mean like buying a phone from a vendor which promises that it supports 7G technology and will instantaneously start playing any Netflix or Youtube video even without mobile phone reception, but given that everything which needed to be said about Hyperloops has already been said in a separate thread, can we please keep the Science Fiction out of this thread...?
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2020, 8:51 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Well, the UK does not yet have proper HSR (except to France) despite a much greater population density. Still much better than the Corridor though.
They have 125 mph (running speed) trains though. And they are not moving on HS2 to connect Birmingham and Manchester. And that corridor doesn't come closer to holding half of the UK's population like the QWC in Canada.

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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Neither does the US. They have one “high speed” route that has an average speed of 68mph (when Via used to run express trains they had higher average speeds) and one route under construction (which connects to zero population centres).
They also don't have half their population in either corridor, our gas prices, our air fares or our weather (for a lot of it).
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2020, 9:14 PM
Razor Razor is offline
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Originally Posted by Urban_Sky View Post
You mean like buying a phone from a vendor which promises that it supports 7G technology and will instantaneously start playing any Netflix or Youtube video even without mobile phone reception, but given that everything which needed to be said about Hyperloops has already been said in a separate thread, can we please keep the Science Fiction out of this thread...?

Okay..Let me re-phrase it for you then!..My general point was , that when the U,S and Canada do eventually come around with Rapid inter city transit technology, the bonus will be that it most likely will be whatever is up to date at that given time, and not on par with what we are naval gazing at .That being what China, Russia or even Japan put in place 20 or more years ago.
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2020, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Always boggles my mind how little is invested in the transport on such an important corridor. There is no other G7 country without high speed rail on their major population corridors. And none come close to having the half their population in a single corridor/region.
High speed rail (HSR) is over glorified by its fans. Don't get me wrong, it is a wonderful alternative, but it is very expensive. Most lines have fares that are on par with parallel flights and thus it is really only an alternative to flying but not really an alternative to driving.

Since the vast majority of intercity travel along the corridor is by car, a substitute for that is important. To achei8ve that we need reliable and frequent intercity rail service (hence High Frequency Rail (HFR)). Most (if not all) countries that have HSR also have slower, but more affordable Intercity service. Pushing for HSR before we have good intercity rail is like pulsing for a freeway between cities that only have a dirt road.

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Yes for sure..Both countries are lagging..Heck, all of the Americas are well behind Europe and Asia in that regard..But hey..
Australasia and Africa also lag behind Europe and Asia (a.k.a. Eurasia). Maybe a better way to say Eurasia is well ahead of the rest of the world.
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2020, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
High speed rail (HSR) is over glorified by its fans. Don't get me wrong, it is a wonderful alternative, but it is very expensive. Most lines have fares that are on par with parallel flights and thus it is really only an alternative to flying but not really an alternative to driving.

Since the vast majority of intercity travel along the corridor is by car, a substitute for that is important. To achei8ve that we need reliable and frequent intercity rail service (hence High Frequency Rail (HFR)). Most (if not all) countries that have HSR also have slower, but more affordable Intercity service. Pushing for HSR before we have good intercity rail is like pulsing for a freeway between cities that only have a dirt road.



Australasia and Africa also lag behind Europe and Asia (a.k.a. Eurasia). Maybe a better way to say Eurasia is well ahead of the rest of the world.
I agree with this, one thing to not though is that a country that is well run would not have built HSR without there already being large demand on the existing lines (Spain and China being examples of where this principle wasn't followed). Thus the demand for seats on the new HSR is large, hence the high prices, not actually because of the high cost of construction - you wouldn't have high ticket prices if it meant people didn't use the line. HS2 in the UK is not being built primarily for speed but for capacity, however going faster improved the CBR.

HFR in Canada should provide ample capacity for the time being, and if it turns out demand outstrips supply, then there will be much greater evidence for the need of HSR than there is today.
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2020, 1:05 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I agree that HSR is oversold to some extent. But my point is that any country having half its population in a single 1200km corridor would have properly developed transportation services that included high speed rail. Goes to show how poorly managed this country is.

Even HFR....

1) Not a certainty. May all fall apart with government disinterest or a change in government.

2) Is still a minimal investment proposition with no double tracking, minimal straightening, minimal grade separation, and no commitment to electrification.

3) Is still 5-8 years from entering service.

After all that, this country will still have slower passenger train service than half a century ago (Toronto-Montreal just under 5 hrs with HFR). Imagine, $4-7 billion and still can't beat the Turbo from the 70s (HFR is an 18-25% longer trip!).

Last edited by Truenorth00; Sep 21, 2020 at 1:18 AM.
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2020, 2:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post

After all that, this country will still have slower passenger train service than half a century ago (Toronto-Montreal just under 5 hrs with HFR). Imagine, $4-7 billion and still can't beat the Turbo from the 70s (HFR is an 18-25% longer trip!).
Not just the Turbo, it was not long ago Via had a 4 hour express train between Toronto and Montreal with existing equipment.
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2020, 3:17 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I agree with this, one thing to not though is that a country that is well run would not have built HSR without there already being large demand on the existing lines (Spain and China being examples of where this principle wasn't followed). Thus the demand for seats on the new HSR is large, hence the high prices, not actually because of the high cost of construction - you wouldn't have high ticket prices if it meant people didn't use the line.
It isn't just the construction costs that are significantly higher, the operating costs are also significantly higher. There are two main causes:

First of all air resistance (fluid friction) is proportional to the square of the velocity, so a 300 km/h train will use twice as much energy as a train traveling 200 km/h and 3.5 times as much energy as on traveling at 160 km/h (VIA's current top speed). Someone has to pay for that energy.

Secondly, HSR trains and track require significantly more maintenance than lower speed trains, which costs money.

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HS2 in the UK is not being built primarily for speed but for capacity, however going faster improved the CBR.
When using double track, it is a myth that higher speed trains have a higher capacity than lower speed trains (single track is different, but you can't have HSR on single track). The capacity of a line is the capacity of each train times the number of trains you run. With double track, the minimum interval between trains is based on the stopping distance, and the faster the train is traveling, the more time/distance it needs to stop. Higher speeds will allow better utilization of your equipment, but that is different from capacity.

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HFR in Canada should provide ample capacity for the time being, and if it turns out demand outstrips supply, then there will be much greater evidence for the need of HSR than there is today.
I agree that HFR should provide enough capacity for now. If we run out of capacity, that just shows how popular trains are, and will justify expansion.
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