Halifax's Gritty North End

[stevencourchene]

Keith so you think that of our community and awful it is (Charles st to Cornwallis st) that many people love and choose to live and raise family's,dine and shop and so much more then i hope you stay in your so called straight laced areas and don't get to enjoy the many wonderful things that stretch of Gottingen street has to offers now and in the near future. this community is filled with beautiful people and great tings to offer this city and i choose to live in one of the newer buildings but am from a area there that is old and for affordable and low income housing where my family has made their home for the last 60 years.
your comment makes me think you as closed minded and are wrapped up in your own world to not see the greatness of the north end the vibrant mix of people,housing,incomes,arts,shops,cafes and dinning and parks and play places for kids and programs for everyone of every walk of life

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by stevencourchene

Keith so you think that of our community and awful it is (Charles st to Cornwallis st) that many people love and choose to live and raise family's,dine and shop and so much more then i hope you stay in your so called straight laced areas and don't get to enjoy the many wonderful things that stretch of Gottingen street has to offers now and in the near future. this community is filled with beautiful people and great tings to offer this city and i choose to live in one of the newer buildings but am from a area there that is old and for affordable and low income housing where my family has made their home for the last 60 years.
your comment makes me think you as closed minded and are wrapped up in your own world to not see the greatness of the north end the vibrant mix of people,housing,incomes,arts,shops,cafes and dinning and parks and play places for kids and programs for everyone of every walk of life

No, I am realistic and not looking at that stretch through rose-colored glasses. It would be nice if it was as you describe, but with a safe injection site, an illegal weed shop, and numerous empty lots/ugly/derelict buildings in that stretch, it still has a long way to go. I do concede that it is better than it was 10 years ago. But much more needs to change.

[JET]

Originally Posted by stevencourchene

Keith so you think that of our community and awful it is (Charles st to Cornwallis st) that many people love and choose to live and raise family's,dine and shop and so much more then i hope you stay in your so called straight laced areas and don't get to enjoy the many wonderful things that stretch of Gottingen street has to offers now and in the near future. this community is filled with beautiful people and great tings to offer this city and i choose to live in one of the newer buildings but am from a area there that is old and for affordable and low income housing where my family has made their home for the last 60 years.
your comment makes me think you as closed minded and are wrapped up in your own world to not see the greatness of the north end the vibrant mix of people,housing,incomes,arts,shops,cafes and dinning and parks and play places for kids and programs for everyone of every walk of life

Well said. I like your community pride.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Summerville

As a resident in the "north end" for two decades now, I have always been confused by the use of the term for everything north of citadel hill. It would be nice if we started to refer to the neighbourhoods in the deep north end by their old names. Like Richmond which was pretty much destroyed by the Halifax explosion.

Absolutely. There are at least six or seven areas in the North End that are clearly distinctive communities, to some degree:

- The Gottingen-Brunswick area
- The area further north and west around Agricola-North-Robie
- Bloomfield
- Hydrostone
- The area east of there around Needham (maybe we could call that Richmond again)
- The Lady Hammond area
- Whatever you want to call everything else above Duffus

And then there are smaller areas that share main thoroughfares and mixed-use areas with the above, but which feel distinctive and share cohesion thanks to built form or demographics: Falkland/Maynard, Uniacke Square, Mulgrave Park.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

If Toronto were like Halifax, Parkdale would be called "that area down around the west end of Queen Street past the railway tracks" and everything west of Yonge would be called the "West End".

The problem with that analogy is that Parkdale was itself a village, much in the same way that Bedford and Sackville are still referred to by those names, even though officially they are part of Halifax. In 100 years time those areas will still be known as Bedford and Sackville, though what people consider to be their boundaries might wander a little over time.

Halifax's areas don't have that type of legacy, other than the rough vernacular of "North End", etc., dating back to when that area was actually the north end of the city (nowadays the north end of Halifax would technically be Upper Musquodoboit or thereabouts), so there was never really an official title to the area and thus exact boundaries were not agreed upon. I think it would be a good project for the city - maybe make it a community outreach project - ask the citizens what they think and then make it official. We have the donair as our official food, why not have officially defined districts?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think it would be a good project for the city - maybe make it a community outreach project - ask the citizens what they think and then make it official. We have the donair as our official food, why not have officially defined districts?

But they would surely get it wrong, the way they did with the disgusting donair.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I can remember back in the 1980s the Gottingen Street area had a bad reputation. Some was probably just stories that were passed along, and some of it would come from hearing news stories of crime that happened in the area. There were a lot of older buildings in various states of repair, and if you weren't from the area you might get the impression that it wasn't a safe place to be.

Same could be said of Hollis Street, which was an active prostitution area back then. I remember being a teenager going for drives in my friend's cars (or parents' cars more likely) to see the hookers on Hollis Street - it was a spectacle for a teenage boy to see back in those days. The activity was well known by everybody and it gave the area a nefarious reputation.

In the mid 1980s I bought a bicycle from a guy in Mulgrave Park, and I remember somebody trying to take it from us before I could even pay for it. The guy I bought it from seemed nice enough but it felt like a hostile area with all the graffiti scratched into the paint of the elevator door, etc. (and people trying to take the bike I was buying).

But those are all impressions of an outsider. I lived in downtown Dartmouth, which I understand also had a reputation as a seedy, dangerous area at one time. I knew the people and the area well, and I thought it was a great place to live. There are moments when I miss those times a lot, actually.

I can recall in my university days, spending a little too much time in the downtown bars such that I missed the last ferry to Dartmouth, and none of us had enough money collectively to pay for a cab. So we walked from the downtown through the "scary" area of Brunswick Street and over the bridge at 2am. I recall being a little nervous about it, but there wasn't a problem at all.

So, sometimes impressions of an outsider can not be accurate. Sure there were problems in places, but if you lived there you knew who were the people were who might cause problems and who the good people were - mostly you stayed away from the problem people and the neighborhood supported each other. Often times, many of the 'problem people' were simply people who had issues and struggles that they couldn't deal with well. They were fine and friendly people generally but had problems with their demons.

Today, things have improved quite a bit, and I'm overjoyed to see the new vibrancy of those neighborhoods, with shops and restaurants there that have a uniqueness not found in other parts of the city. It's really cool to see.

Gottingen Street specifically is interesting in that it used to be one of the main shopping districts in the city, but then fell into decline over the years, which was probably accelerated by the whole Cogswell interchange situation. It's quite cool to see it being revitalized, and watch how that activity has a spinoff effect for the rest of the neighborhood. The only negative I can see is that rising property values might make it difficult for long-time residents to stay there, which is why affordable housing programs are so important... somehow they don't seem to be a complete solution, though.

Anyhow, I can sort of see where everybody is coming from. I admire Stephen's sense of community spirit. We all could use more of that.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I can remember back in the 1980s the Gottingen Street area had a bad reputation. Some was probably just stories that were passed along, and some of it would come from hearing news stories of crime that happened in the area. There were a lot of older buildings in various states of repair, and if you weren't from the area you might get the impression that it wasn't a safe place to be.

Same could be said of Hollis Street, which was an active prostitution area back then. I remember being a teenager going for drives in my friend's cars (or parents' cars more likely) to see the hookers on Hollis Street - it was a spectacle for a teenage boy to see back in those days. The activity was well known by everybody and it gave the area a nefarious reputation.

In the mid 1980s I bought a bicycle from a guy in Mulgrave Park, and I remember somebody trying to take it from us before I could even pay for it. The guy I bought it from seemed nice enough but it felt like a hostile area with all the graffiti scratched into the paint of the elevator door, etc. (and people trying to take the bike I was buying).

LMAO I had a similar story down in the park back then. One day I was biking through there going to see a friend and some kids stopped me. One kid grabbed the handle bars and told me to get off the bike. Just at that moment one of my friends sisters came around the corner and was like that's my brothers friend and the kids let me go with my bike, lol. This was around 88/89. I remember a friend ordering pizza and we had to walk out of the park to get it. A pizza guy was robbed and badly beaten so they stopped delivering directly into the park.


Hollis street was full of hookers back then. There were hookers on every corner. I remember seeing one out there in a bikini and pumps and had a small fur coat on. lol

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I can see using Hydrostone to refer to streets to the west, toward Robie,but east of Isleville you have the natural break of Fort Needham, which severs things geographically. East of Isleville feels a like a whole different area.

I assume you mean east of Novalea (directly east of Isleville is THE Hydrostone, by even the most limiting definition). I agree that east of Novalea isn't what I would mean by the Hydrostone and does feel like a separate area (although the occasional house in that area is in fact constructed of hydrostone).

As for the eternal North End debate, I think it’s in the realm of pedantry. The North End starts north of Cogswell now. Pre-interchange, when the area was more connected to downtown (or WAS part of downtown) it would have been different, but every single person I know refers to this area as the North End. It feels completely different from the area to the south, has different demographics, and a very different physical character. It may not be historically accurate, but the boundaries have shifted in people’s minds, especially younger people.

This is basically how I see it as well.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Summerville

The whole area is actually quite diverse with local bars, stores and public spaces that are used by their immediate neighbourhoods. The south end by comparison appears to be more monolithic.

The South End is dominated by large institutions like the universities and hospitals which are in a way central to the neighbourhood/End. The North End's major institutions are on the waterfront - ie the margin, not the centre. NSCC-Leeds is an exception in some ways, but it's still near the "edge" of the North End and doesn't take up very much space. I think this contributes to the "monolithic" (coherent?) character of the South End - lacking these large physical interruptions, the differences between adjacent parts of the North End are a bit more apparent.

There are also local bars etc. in the South End (I'd say cafes seem more common in the South End and bars in the North, but both exist in both). The South End also has a large-ish, mostly younger, non-Anglophone Chinese population with a large number of businesses (including bars) geared toward that demographic. If you include these, along with student bars, then the two "Ends" are probably roughly equal as far as "local" bars go.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

No, I am realistic and not looking at that stretch through rose-colored glasses. It would be nice if it was as you describe, but with a safe injection site,

This seems like a situation that is preferable and less sketchy for everyone than the alternative, which would be people shooting up in public (not to mention potentially ODing or contracting serious and expensive-to-treat blood-borne illnesses from dirty needles). I know that some people consider "how about if there were no drug users to begin with?" as a third and preferred alternative but in practice this is not a realistic or available option at all. Aside from eliminating drug addiction completely (which I agree would be a very good thing in theory), I'm curious as to what you think would be an improvement on the status quo. [edit: I'm not rolling my eyes here... I'm genuinely curious]

an illegal weed shop

to be fair, it is in practice very similar to the legal weed shop in the South End, except that the one on Gottingen is genuinely geared towards cannabis as a health/medical product (I don't think it's a facade that they're putting up in order to justify selling weed illegally - the owners and staff do genuinely believe in its health benefits). The NSLC is purely "recreational". In practice that just means that their product is not necessarily geared towards having any health benefits or even not-having adverse effects, the way it tends to be at most genuinely medical-focused dispensaries.

There are plenty of dispensaries in NS with less noble intentions than Pharm Assists. It's much more nuanced than "it's a non-NSLC dispensary, therefore it's bad" IMO. For the record I would agree that there were (and still are) some sketchy dispensaries, and while some would argue that an illegal dispensary is an illegal dispensary is an illegal dispensary, some were providing to patients with a genuine sense of moral duty, some were selling to customers indifferently but in good faith, and some were quite... bad. Some collected GST and issued T4s. Some kept illegal firearms and cocaine on site (these ones probably did not issue T4s, but I am speculating). There was (/is?) a huge range in "efforts to do the right thing" within that movement, and some of them were truly deplorable IMO. Pharm Assists was always one of the most earnest and well-intended ones, it seems.

I think it all boils down to fundamental differences in values, tastes, and opinions. Many people are bothered by things that I don't even give a second thought to, and the things that I and many others find appealing about this area may be uninteresting or even unappealing to a lot of other people Sometimes (and I'm thinking of the area you mentioned in particular) I think this is deliberate on the part of business owners, they are trying to appeal to the counterculture so why try to look "conventionally good"? - not necessarily an approach I would take but I get it. There are certain things that you need to value (and I don't necessarily mean "Good Liberal Things" like diversity or social equity, although those wouldn't hurt in this particular case) in order to really enjoy a place like this. I prefer the area in something resembling its current state as opposed to a hypothetical fully-gentrified Spring Garden North. I don't think someone should be expected to like a place just because it is beloved by other people with completely different tastes - to each their own.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The problem with that analogy is that Parkdale was itself a village, much in the same way that Bedford and Sackville are still referred to by those names, even though officially they are part of Halifax. In 100 years time those areas will still be known as Bedford and Sackville, though what people consider to be their boundaries might wander a little over time.

Halifax's areas don't have that type of legacy, other than the rough vernacular of "North End", etc., dating back to when that area was actually the north end of the city (nowadays the north end of Halifax would technically be Upper Musquodoboit or thereabouts), so there was never really an official title to the area and thus exact boundaries were not agreed upon.

There are a lot of off-Peninsula areas that were separate villages before being annexed by the city in the 60s though. Spryfield, Armdale, Rockingham, Dutch Village were all separate from Halifax at one point in history. Of these, Spryfield is the most well-defined today and even that is fairly vague and doesn't have any agreed-upon boundaries. Armdale is an awkward checkerboard of modern subdivisions and historic neighbourhoods that are barely connected with each other at all. Dutch Village is now just a road, the neighbourhood renamed as Fairview at some point (ironically this is probably the most well-defined neighbourhood in the HRM of 2019). Rockingham is basically just part of the Clayton Park blob now. It's not common for people to refer to MSVU as being "in Rockingham" for example. There is also the Beechville-Lakeside-Timberlea corridor and I'm not as familiar with it but I believe it has a history of shifting boundaries while also probably starting out as villages outside of Halifax proper. And where exactly is "Bedford" now?

Richmond and Africville were also both separate from Halifax proper but neither of them exist anymore per se. We could rename the existing areas to reflect the history but very few if any of the original buildings remain, and unfortunately (for the sake of this exercise) much of what was Richmond is now the Hydrostone. The Kempt Road area was also part of Richmond I think.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I assume you mean east of Novalea (directly east of Isleville is THE Hydrostone, by even the most limiting definition). I agree that east of Novalea isn't what I would mean by the Hydrostone and does feel like a separate area (although the occasional house in that area is in fact constructed of hydrostone).

Whoops, brain slip. Yep, meant Novalea.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Hali87

This seems like a situation that is preferable and less sketchy for everyone than the alternative, which would be people shooting up in public (not to mention potentially ODing or contracting serious and expensive-to-treat blood-borne illnesses from dirty needles). I know that some people consider "how about if there were no drug users to begin with?" as a third and preferred alternative but in practice this is not a realistic or available option at all. Aside from eliminating drug addiction completely (which I agree would be a very good thing in theory), I'm curious as to what you think would be an improvement on the status quo. [edit: I'm not rolling my eyes here... I'm genuinely curious]

I merely have a problem with enabling addiction to illegal substances. When it is done with govt funding I have an even bigger problem. I wonder why the funding is not used for addiction treatment programs instead. As it is, this is akin to govt funding and building impaired driving lanes on our highways to enable that behavior. I don't think anyone would agree that is a good idea.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

But they would surely get it wrong, the way they did with the disgusting donair.

Now that explains everything

[JET]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I merely have a problem with enabling addiction to illegal substances. When it is done with govt funding I have an even bigger problem. I wonder why the funding is not used for addiction treatment programs instead. As it is, this is akin to govt funding and building impaired driving lanes on our highways to enable that behavior. I don't think anyone would agree that is a good idea.

You obviously have a very limited understanding of Addictions and Addiction services. Your analogy is simplistic and ridiculous

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Hali87

There are a lot of off-Peninsula areas that were separate villages before being annexed by the city in the 60s though. Spryfield, Armdale, Rockingham, Dutch Village were all separate from Halifax at one point in history. Of these, Spryfield is the most well-defined today and even that is fairly vague and doesn't have any agreed-upon boundaries. Armdale is an awkward checkerboard of modern subdivisions and historic neighbourhoods that are barely connected with each other at all. Dutch Village is now just a road, the neighbourhood renamed as Fairview at some point (ironically this is probably the most well-defined neighbourhood in the HRM of 2019). Rockingham is basically just part of the Clayton Park blob now. It's not common for people to refer to MSVU as being "in Rockingham" for example. There is also the Beechville-Lakeside-Timberlea corridor and I'm not as familiar with it but I believe it has a history of shifting boundaries while also probably starting out as villages outside of Halifax proper. And where exactly is "Bedford" now?

Richmond and Africville were also both separate from Halifax proper but neither of them exist anymore per se. We could rename the existing areas to reflect the history but very few if any of the original buildings remain, and unfortunately (for the sake of this exercise) much of what was Richmond is now the Hydrostone. The Kempt Road area was also part of Richmond I think.

Good points, but I am left wondering whether distinct, well-defined boundaries like this actually serve any purpose other than to explain to somebody where you live.

Is there a function to defining boundaries of neighborhoods, or is it just a fun thing to talk about?

I mean, electoral boundaries have a function and are well-defined. City boundaries have a function and are well-defined. What is the function/benefit of having distinct boundaries on "the north end"?

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JET

You obviously have a very limited understanding of Addictions and Addiction services. Your analogy is simplistic and ridiculous

Explain it to me then.

[stevencourchene]

well i hope Keith as said before i hope to stay in your area and dont get to enjoy the great things in the stretch of Gottingen street. i've lived in this area off and on for most my life and always consider it home and i know a large amount of my community and the folks who make it up from from rich to poor and everyone in between and we are all who make this part of the city so incredible and we look at this as our home and community as same do as the folks in other areas in Halifax i don't love or use the weed shop but lots do and they have good rent and i would rather them get the money for what they are good at and not the government also the YMCA that offer so much for youth and adults and seniors along with the new store front poping up such as geebo and real fake meats i feel you are just really missing out but with your closed mind and blinders on i hope they dont get to use what this community has to offer

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

This seems like a situation that is preferable and less sketchy for everyone than the alternative, which would be people shooting up in public (not to mention potentially ODing or contracting serious and expensive-to-treat blood-borne illnesses from dirty needles). I know that some people consider "how about if there were no drug users to begin with?" as a third and preferred alternative but in practice this is not a realistic or available option at all. Aside from eliminating drug addiction completely (which I agree would be a very good thing in theory), I'm curious as to what you think would be an improvement on the status quo. [edit: I'm not rolling my eyes here... I'm genuinely curious]

It's good for people to be critical and there is still room for improvement but Gottingen is one of the best examples of improvement of a neighbourhood of its type that I have seen anywhere in North America. It has lots of affordable market-rate development, some subsidized housing, and generally has gotten more "diverse" over time rather than less diverse (maybe ethnically but I mostly mean in terms of the mix of businesses and the types of people who live there). Most other similar neighbourhoods are either getting more and more desperate or have been gentrified and instead of social problems being fixed the old residents simply got displaced and sometimes ended up homeless.

It's important to keep social services in convenient clusters near the people who use them, but you also don't want to create an area that is nothing but social services.

It's also important to have a path for individuals who are displaced by redevelopment. Some of the little houses that get torn down are rooming houses and there is no equivalent market-rate housing being created. Many of the residents of those places are disabled. It's a win for everybody if people in this type of housing move into new subsidized developments and the old buildings get either restored or replaced, but if the right coordination doesn't happen people end up being homeless.