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  #501  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2021, 2:46 PM
nito nito is offline
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
Ultimately, what this comes down to is that Toronto is a rapidly growing metropolitan area that's playing catch up on transit infrastructure. So it's still better to build high density where there is some frequent transit infrastructure and potential for further expansion, than it is to have the housing get built in some outer suburb or even in the form of condos in a more auto-oriented area where the prospects for rapid transit expansion are more distant (ex Erin Mills, Promenade Mall, Vaughan Mills or even Yonge & Steeles or Uptown Oakville).
Focusing development around transport nodes is outright sensible; it makes cities more efficient and the concentration aids retail and other amenities with footfall. I understand the need to deliver more housing to serve expanding populations, but I just find some of the planning/masterplan decisions rather peculiar. Looking at some maps, you’d assume that Cooksville and Erindale GO Transit stations would have proven to be more effective anchors for development, or a new branch line to directly serve the concentration of high-density development.

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The transit capacity of the streetcar routes serving the area is actually pretty high. The commuter rail line passing through currently has a weekday ridership of 33,500. Meanwhile, the King Street transit corridor (streetcars/buses) was serving about 85,000 people prior to the pandemic.
You would assume that this isn’t the only development along this lake corridor, so the question should not be around current ridership, but the upgrades and capacity to absorb future ridership.

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My point was that even with an relatively auto-oriented community of 7 condo towers, 1 large office building, 1 large hotel, and a few blocks of rowhouses, that's not enough to create a traffic jam on the one exit point (even though it's just a small 2 lane street). That street probably wouldn't be able to handle too much more development though, Liberty Village would be an example of a bigger community that also has limited exit points and it gets pretty congested during peak periods. The Kennedy bus comes every 5-10 minutes though, maybe you were looking at the 3am schedule because you're in a distant time zone?
Perhaps it is a timing of StreetView, but if that entire neighbourhood has a solitary entry/exit point for vehicles and pedestrians, combined with poor public transit, why is it so quiet when it is a literal high-rise cul-de-sac? There must be hundreds of apartments, and as you note, a hotel and office. As for the bus schedules, I was looking at the schedule for the 43C bus which runs to the neighbourhood in question; 15 northbound services each weekday from Kennedy, with services only between 0530 to 0830 and 1500 to 1900. High-rise towers in a suburban environment is incredibly grim sounding.
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  #502  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2021, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by nito View Post
Focusing development around transport nodes is outright sensible; it makes cities more efficient and the concentration aids retail and other amenities with footfall. I understand the need to deliver more housing to serve expanding populations, but I just find some of the planning/masterplan decisions rather peculiar. Looking at some maps, you’d assume that Cooksville and Erindale GO Transit stations would have proven to be more effective anchors for development, or a new branch line to directly serve the concentration of high-density development.
The Milton line that serves Erindale and Cooksville GO stations only has peak period train service though, with no service mid-day, late evening and weekend service. During those off-peak periods, they have to use buses instead. This is because the rails are privately owned by Canadian Pacific and that section of railway is used by all of their freight traffic passing through Southern Ontario (both east-west and north-south traffic).

As a result they're reluctant to allow much passenger service on their tracks out of concerns it would interfere with their freight operations.

Most of the rest of the GO network is controlled by Metrolinx (provincial government agency) so there's fewer issues with service expansions there.

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You would assume that this isn’t the only development along this lake corridor, so the question should not be around current ridership, but the upgrades and capacity to absorb future ridership.
It's not, but a lot of the other development would be able to make use of other transit routes. The lakefront development further West in Mississauga and beyond (ex Lakeview Village and Brightwater) would mostly be using GO Trains heading into Toronto, possibly in combination with feeder buses routes (which still have a lot of room for capacity expansion). But they wouldn't be using the streetcar since the streetcar doesn't go past Toronto city limits.

The lakefront development between Mississauga and Humber Bay is mostly on a much smaller scale, so it shouldn't impact streetcar ridership too much. The main large scale development is around Mimico station, but they can just get on the GO trains there.

There's quite a lot of condo development in Etobicoke along the Queensway, Highway 427, Dundas W and a couple smaller clusters, but those would mostly be using the Queensway bus and Bloor Subway, and to an extent the Milton GO line. They would use similar arterial roads and highways as the Humber Bay residents, but they wouldn't use the Lakeshore streetcars much.

Finally, there's the development around Liberty Village/King West. This is basically an extension of downtown Toronto. Although there's a lot of development taking place here, you could in theory just add more surface routes along more streets if you need more capacity. If the Metrolinx finally pursues fare integration with the TTC, that will probably re-route a lot of transit users onto the GO trains too. There was room for a significant amount of capacity expansion along this corridor, as evidenced by the fact that the streetcars there were carrying a lot fewer passengers 1-2 decades ago. It's true that eventually those more affordable surface transit upgrades might be at capacity too, but there are plans to expand rail transit here with the new Ontario Line subway, and potential infill stations (King-Liberty & Spadina-Front) on the GO network.
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Originally Posted by nito View Post
Perhaps it is a timing of StreetView, but if that entire neighbourhood has a solitary entry/exit point for vehicles and pedestrians, combined with poor public transit, why is it so quiet when it is a literal high-rise cul-de-sac? There must be hundreds of apartments, and as you note, a hotel and office. As for the bus schedules, I was looking at the schedule for the 43C bus which runs to the neighbourhood in question; 15 northbound services each weekday from Kennedy, with services only between 0530 to 0830 and 1500 to 1900. High-rise towers in a suburban environment is incredibly grim sounding.
It's quiet because cul-de-sacs attract no through traffic. You have no reason to drive in there unless you live/work there. It's the arterial roads that get congested because people from hundreds, if not thousands of cul-de-sacs might consider using them. That's why traffic problems (at least in North American cities) are usually regional rather than local issues. It's only in very extreme cases of high densities with limited exit points that you get localized congestion problems, like Liberty Village:
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.63925...7i16384!8i8192
The 43C bus doesn't come often, but 43A does. 43A doesn't go into the cul-de-sac, but it's only a 5 minute walk to the bus stop at the intersection of the cul-de-sac and Kennedy. There's even a night bus doing a few runs along Kennedy around 2-4am.

Humber Bay also benefits from being at the edge of the road network, in the sense that there's no development to the south of it (because that's the lake). As a result, there's a lot less car traffic along Lakeshore in South Etobicoke than you would normally expect for an inner suburb.
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  #503  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 6:02 PM
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A tour of Vancouver's SkyTrain network with many view of it's suburban skylines

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  #504  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2021, 2:14 AM
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Port Credit (Mississauga) in the foreground, Mississauga City Centre in the background.

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  #505  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2021, 4:15 PM
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
The Milton line that serves Erindale and Cooksville GO stations only has peak period train service though, with no service mid-day, late evening and weekend service. During those off-peak periods, they have to use buses instead. This is because the rails are privately owned by Canadian Pacific and that section of railway is used by all of their freight traffic passing through Southern Ontario (both east-west and north-south traffic). As a result they're reluctant to allow much passenger service on their tracks out of concerns it would interfere with their freight operations. Most of the rest of the GO network is controlled by Metrolinx (provincial government agency) so there's fewer issues with service expansions there.
I’m aware of this to a degree when I looked at various North American commuter routes a while back as part of another project and am aware of various upgrades. North American railways tend to see more freight traffic than European railways, but much of the infrastructure already exists to create segregated freight and passenger routes. If high-capacity transit was not an option, it makes developments in areas like Mississauga even more peculiar.

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It's quiet because cul-de-sacs attract no through traffic. You have no reason to drive in there unless you live/work there. It's the arterial roads that get congested because people from hundreds, if not thousands of cul-de-sacs might consider using them. That's why traffic problems (at least in North American cities) are usually regional rather than local issues. It's only in very extreme cases of high densities with limited exit points that you get localized congestion problems, like Liberty Village:
I understand the dynamics around cul-de-sacs, the difference is that I’ve never seen one for high-rises, not even access to surrounding neighbourhoods for pedestrians is a truly rare sight from an urban development perspective. Compounding the problems of cul-de-sacs in high-rise format ought to be discouraged; the consequence is the creation of disconnected nodes rather than integrated neighbourhoods.
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  #506  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2021, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by nito View Post
I’m aware of this to a degree when I looked at various North American commuter routes a while back as part of another project and am aware of various upgrades. North American railways tend to see more freight traffic than European railways, but much of the infrastructure already exists to create segregated freight and passenger routes. If high-capacity transit was not an option, it makes developments in areas like Mississauga even more peculiar.

I understand the dynamics around cul-de-sacs, the difference is that I’ve never seen one for high-rises, not even access to surrounding neighbourhoods for pedestrians is a truly rare sight from an urban development perspective. Compounding the problems of cul-de-sacs in high-rise format ought to be discouraged; the consequence is the creation of disconnected nodes rather than integrated neighbourhoods.
Yeah, the high density development in Mississauga isn't that heavily rail oriented.

I would say that the commuter rail along the Lakeshore West line (Port Credit & Clarkson) is more rail oriented, since that line has more regular service. Still not on the level of heavy rail though, with only 30 minute service off-peak (but with plans to increase to 15min off-peak).

The development in the more central parts of Mississauga is more bus + auto oriented, like Dixie & Bloor, Cooksville and Mississauga Center. The train stations there still get well used for commuter service into downtown Toronto (and they also have off-peak commuter buses). But a lot of the people there don't even work in downtown Toronto, but rather in office parks, industrial parks, shopping malls, etc.

As of 2016, Mississauga had 295,000 employed residents, but 393,000 people working there, and 54% of Mississauga residents working in Mississauga compared to 23% of Mississauga residents working in Toronto.

Mississauga's initial boom period in the 50s-80s definitely came when cars were seen as the future, and even concepts for "downtowns" were heavily auto-oriented and "radiant city" influenced. In the last two decades, Mississauga has been working on being more transit/cycling/pedestrian oriented, but it still involves retrofitting an auto-oriented framework.

The busiest bus corridor in Mississauga isn't one of the routes heading into Toronto, but rather Hurontario Ave, which is why it's currently being upgraded to LRT. Most of the high density development in Mississauga is along the Hurontario corridor, especially near Square One which also has the benefit of having a busy bus terminal with routes spreading out to all parts of town, as well as a BRT corridor along Highway 403/Eglinton. Cooksville is also located at a busy bus transit hub. The busiest east-west bus route intersecting Hurontario is there - at Dundas street.

The problem with the freight rail use in Toronto isn't just that it's more heavily utilized, but that it's privately owned, mostly by two competing companies, Canadian Pacific (CP) and Canadian National (CN). If the whole freight rail network was publicly owned, the CP freight trains would probably all be made to go on the Toronto freight rail bypass that follows the 407 (and is currently owned by CN), and then the current CP rail corridors could be converted to primarily passenger service. I suspect there would be room for 3, maybe even 4 tracks along the whole Milton rail corridor, but I guess Metrolinx and CP still haven't worked out some sort of agreement for that?

As for that highrise cul-de-sac in Scarborough... It's surrounded on 2 sides by railways, and on the third side by a 16 lane highway. I suppose you could build bridges over the railways, but there's not much those bridges would connect to, only industrial areas.
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  #507  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2021, 9:21 PM
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Just north of Midtown Atlanta is Buckhead:


Buckhead skyline at dawn by 🔆Scott Warren, on Flickr

Just north of Buckhead is Sandy Springs (State Farm recently built tall buildings here but not pictured as the photo is from 4 years ago):

Perimeter Center by Brandon Dolley, on Flickr

Downtown/Midtown on the left, Buckhead on the right:

Atlanta skyline(s) by Hudson Dean, on Flickr
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  #508  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2021, 2:07 PM
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A tour of Vancouver's SkyTrain network with many view of it's suburban skylines

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  #509  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 11:15 AM
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  #510  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 11:20 AM
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Vancouver with some of its satellite skylines


http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/show...22250&page=829
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  #511  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2021, 1:50 PM
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
Yeah, the high density development in Mississauga isn't that heavily rail oriented. I would say that the commuter rail along the Lakeshore West line (Port Credit & Clarkson) is more rail oriented, since that line has more regular service. Still not on the level of heavy rail though, with only 30 minute service off-peak (but with plans to increase to 15min off-peak). The development in the more central parts of Mississauga is more bus + auto oriented, like Dixie & Bloor, Cooksville and Mississauga Center. The train stations there still get well used for commuter service into downtown Toronto (and they also have off-peak commuter buses). But a lot of the people there don't even work in downtown Toronto, but rather in office parks, industrial parks, shopping malls, etc. As of 2016, Mississauga had 295,000 employed residents, but 393,000 people working there, and 54% of Mississauga residents working in Mississauga compared to 23% of Mississauga residents working in Toronto. Mississauga's initial boom period in the 50s-80s definitely came when cars were seen as the future, and even concepts for "downtowns" were heavily auto-oriented and "radiant city" influenced. In the last two decades, Mississauga has been working on being more transit/cycling/pedestrian oriented, but it still involves retrofitting an auto-oriented framework.
Mississauga in some ways shares similarities with Croydon in south London (which is defined in the Mayor’s London Plan as a Metropolitan Town Centre), in that it has an identity and gravity that draws in shoppers and workers, from surrounding neighbourhoods. In a way acting as a counterbalance to the core city. Unlike Mississauga though, the bulk of Croydon’s post-war and future development has materialised between West and East Croydon stations which between them see 1,700+ trains a day despite not being on the Underground.

As cities like Toronto continue to observe growth and intensification of development increases, it will become increasingly important to focus high-rise development around existing or future high-capacity transit to avoid creating high-rise ghettos that are isolated from the greater urban environment.

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The problem with the freight rail use in Toronto isn't just that it's more heavily utilized, but that it's privately owned, mostly by two competing companies, Canadian Pacific (CP) and Canadian National (CN). If the whole freight rail network was publicly owned, the CP freight trains would probably all be made to go on the Toronto freight rail bypass that follows the 407 (and is currently owned by CN), and then the current CP rail corridors could be converted to primarily passenger service. I suspect there would be room for 3, maybe even 4 tracks along the whole Milton rail corridor, but I guess Metrolinx and CP still haven't worked out some sort of agreement for that?
Nationalisation of the tracks would be one option, but the better course of action would be to take advantage of the wide corridors present in most areas and have segregated tracks.

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As for that highrise cul-de-sac in Scarborough... It's surrounded on 2 sides by railways, and on the third side by a 16 lane highway. I suppose you could build bridges over the railways, but there's not much those bridges would connect to, only industrial areas.
Observing Google Maps shows retail to the south, a park to the north, and places of employment in the north, south and east that aren’t easily accessible. Agincourt station would be far more accessible than is presently the case if there was say a pedestrian and cycling link perhaps running parallel to the railway line. A common feature in the UK is to limit private car access, but provide more options for bus, bicycle and pedestrian access. One example is Chiswick Business Park in west London where access by private car is via a single point, but two by bus and three for pedestrians and cyclists. I have no connection to Toronto, but many of the developments highlighted in this thread are abysmal planning disasters that deserve little celebration.
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  #512  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 4:14 AM
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Scarborough Town Centre - Toronto
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  #513  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 11:15 PM
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If you watch the video, you'll see what was a suburban area of Phoenix 20 years ago - become an epicenter for urban development today, despite being a suburb of 200,000.

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  #514  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2021, 3:01 AM
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A couple great recent pics by Kazu of Burnaby’s (suburb of Vancouver) two most impressive skylines.

First is Brentwood:



And then Metrotown

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  #515  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2021, 9:00 PM
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Sunny Isles Beach is adding to its tall collection. A 749-foot tall "Bentley Residences" was announced one building down from Porsche Tower, i guess they like luxury car branded towers.
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