Toronto supplants US cities as fastest growing tech hub

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Nite

Between 2016 and 2021, Toronto had the most tech talent growth (+88,900 jobs), followed by Seattle (+45,560) and Vancouver (+44,460).

That has nothing to do with quality nor does it specify what type of position within the tech field.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by homebucket

That has nothing to do with quality nor does it specify what type of position within the tech field.

fine it doesn't have to do with quality but my point is that the quality is satisfactory enough to make tech companies higher more in professionals in Toronto than anywhere else in the last 5 years

[lio45]

It’s not about quality. All it proves is that the bang for the buck is good, even if quality may be inferior.

As I said, I’ve seen tech employers in my hometown hiring Indian software engineers and importing them here. That’s got to be unbeatable value for a North American employer. In the USA you can’t do this as easily.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by homebucket

That has nothing to do with quality nor does it specify what type of position within the tech field.

Yep. All this data tells us is that there is great growth in the number of jobs that are (self-reported?) as “tech” jobs.

I’d leave the word “talent” out of the argument at this stage; the data is about the number of jobs. It makes sense for employers to farm out the lesser tech jobs to low-wage locations.

[Doady]

Toronto is behind other cities, which might be part of why it's the fastest growing. It's strange seeing people here try to argue so vehemently that Toronto not so established as a tech hub. Toronto is up and coming, and that's the point of the article too, is it not?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by lio45

It’s not about quality. All it proves is that the bang for the buck is good, even if quality may be inferior.

As I said, I’ve seen tech employers in my hometown hiring Indian software engineers and importing them here. That’s got to be unbeatable value for a North American employer. In the USA you can’t do this as easily.

Why would they import the workers to Canada permanently as direct employees? They'd have to pay them market rate once they got to Canada which negates the point?

That said, there was a huge issue with Indian tech consulting firms (specifically Tata and Infosys) snatching up U.S. H1b visas for their workers in the lottery. The business model was to send Indian workers to the U.S. to learn the IT functions in U.S. companies and then the companies would cut their IT departments and outsource the jobs to India, and the workers would return home and perform the work from there.

[memph]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Why would they import the workers to Canada permanently as direct employees? They'd have to pay them market rate once they got to Canada which negates the point?

That said, there was a huge issue with Indian tech consulting firms (specifically Tata and Infosys) snatching up U.S. H1b visas for their workers in the lottery. The business model was to send Indian workers to the U.S. to learn the IT functions in U.S. companies and then the companies would cut their IT departments and outsource the jobs to India, and the workers would return home and perform the work from there.

It's basically a case of American companies bringing Asians to work in their Canadian branch offices. Although Toronto doesn't have that many big tech companies headquartered there, it's huge for having tech employees working in satellite offices for American companies, or contractors working from home. It's also worth noting it's not just tech companies, but also companies in other sectors, like the financial companies will typically have large tech departments, which Toronto has a lot of.

Waterloo Region is a bit different. I would say it's more dynamic with more startups, and less about offshoring tech jobs to a lower cost satellite campus (although it does have Google, Shopify and SAC have a presence). Companies that came out of there are RIM/Blackberry, D2L, ApplyBoard, Faire and OpenText. There's a lot of small companies too, that are not necessarily trying to be the next big thing, but has still found a niche market that they're good at serving.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by memph

It's basically a case of American companies bringing Asians to work in their Canadian branch offices. Although Toronto doesn't have that many big tech companies headquartered there, it's huge for having tech employees working in satellite offices for American companies, or contractors working from home. It's also worth noting it's not just tech companies, but also companies in other sectors, like the financial companies will typically have large tech departments, which Toronto has a lot of.

Yes, I know about that, but the claim wasn't that they're coming from the U.S. The claim was that they're coming directly from India, which would not make sense because the company wouldn't be saving money since they'd still have to pay Canadian market wages.

[memph]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yes, I know about that, but the claim wasn't that they're coming from the U.S. The claim was that they're coming directly from India, which would not make sense because the company wouldn't be saving money since they'd still have to pay Canadian market wages.

Yes, but the Canadian wages are still lower than the American ones, so they're still saving money by hiring an Indian and moving them to Canada, compared to hiring an American. And I guess they want to move them to Canada because they don't have a secondary office in India and don't want their employee to be all alone on the other end of the world, it can often still be beneficial to be closer to your co-workers. I mean even Zoom meetings don't really work since the time-zones are so different. Not only might they have a secondary office in Canada, but also have more convenient travel to the US head office. A lot of these Asians will also want to move to the Americas, it's not just the employer that wants it, and it's easier and cheaper to bring them to Canada.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by memph

Yes, but the Canadian wages are still lower than the American ones, so they're still saving money by hiring an Indian and moving them to Canada, compared to hiring an American.

And I guess they want to move them to Canada because they don't have a secondary office in India and don't want their employee to be all alone on the other end of the world, it can often still be beneficial to be closer to your co-workers. I mean even Zoom meetings don't really work since the time-zones are so different. Not only might they have a secondary office in Canada, but also have more convenient travel to the US head office. A lot of these Asians will also want to move to the Americas, it's not just the employer that wants it, and it's easier and cheaper to bring them to Canada.

If we're talking about U.S. companies hiring tech workers in Canada, then this has almost nothing to do with U.S. vs Canadian wages. American companies are using Canada for a couple of reasons. First, because it's easier to get visas there, and the U.S. visa program for highly skilled workers has gotten extremely unpredictable. Second, Indian nationals on a highly skilled visa have to wait an absurdly long time -- well over a decade the last time I checked -- for green card eligibility in the U.S. due to the cap on applicants by country of birth. If the person loses their job at any time they only have 60 days to find a new one or they must leave the country. This makes it extremely hard for Indians to settle down in the U.S.

I know plenty of Indians with American born kids but they're still here on h1b visas waiting on green cards. Canada is an easy answer for them because they can quickly get permanent residency and not have to take their kids back to India. Ironically, it would probably take someone from neighboring Sri Lanka about a quarter of the time it takes an Indian national to get a green card. If the U.S. fixed the issue regarding green cards caps for H1bs one then the demand for American companies hiring Indians in Canada would plummet overnight.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by mhays

"Ecosystem value," venture capital, etc., are a very different topic than who's currently big in tech -- which relates more to employment, headquarters, etc.

I'm biased of course...my city is home to two of the top four or five techs but has a second-tier ecosystem for new companies.

Yeah, Seattle is pretty much a smaller Bay Area but with better coffee, beer and more trees.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by JManc

Yeah, Seattle is pretty much a smaller Bay Area but with better coffee, beer and more trees.

I don't see much of a resemblance at all tbh. Seattle suburbs are more like Sonoma County along Hy 101, green and less dense than the inner Bay Area, which is very dense comparatively speaking.

As far as trees, yeah, we have very different climates. They get more precipitation, we get more of this...

Selected North American Cities by Annual Hours of Sunshine:
Phoenix 3,871.6
Las Vegas 3,825.3
Tucson 3,806.0
Sacramento 3,607.8
Fresno 3,564.2
Los Angeles 3,254.2
Miami 3,154.0
Denver 3,106.6
Oklahoma City 3,089.4
San Francisco 3,061.7
San Diego 3,054.6
Honolulu 3,035.9
Salt Lake City 3,029.4
San Juan 2,963.8
San Salvador 2,957.0
Tampa 2,926.5
Wichita 2,922.4
Memphis 2,888.3
Jacksonville 2,879.7
Dallas 2,849.7
Richmond 2,829.0
Charlotte 2,821.0
Kansas City 2,809.9
Tulsa 2,786.0
Managua 2,759.9
Atlanta 2,738.3
Minneapolis 2,710.7
Virginia Beach 2,695.1
New Orleans 2,648.9
Austin 2,643.7
Boston 2,633.6
Raleigh 2,606.3
St Louis 2,593.7
Baltimore 2,581.7
Houston 2,577.9
Mexico City 2,555.0
New York 2,534.7
Washington DC 2,527.7
Louisville 2,514.4
Nashville 2,510.1
Chicago 2,508.4
Philadelphia 2,498.4
Milwaukee 2,483.6
Indianapolis 2,440.4
Detroit 2,435.9
Calgary 2,396.3
Winnipeg 2,352.9
Edmonton 2,344.8
Portland 2,340.9
Cleveland 2,280.0
Monterrey 2,239.0
Columbus 2,182.6
Seattle 2,169.7
Toronto 2,066.4
Montreal 2,051.0
Pittsburgh 2,021.3
Panama City 1,743.5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...shine_duration

[mhays]

You really think he was talking about weather? Or density?

[BnaBreaker]

Nashville: The least sunbelt of all the sunbelt cities.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by JManc

Yeah, Seattle is pretty much a smaller Bay Area but with better coffee, beer and more trees.

Blue Bottle > Verve > Philz > Peet’s >>>>>>>> Starbucks

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Blue Bottle > Verve > Philz > Peet’s >>>>>>>> Starbucks

You're talking about price, right?

Seriously though, ANY coffee place, particularly the independent ones, is better than Starbucks. And personally, I think Blue Bottle is overrated, especially for what you pay. I've had better coffee at some local LA chains, like Boy & The Bear.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

You're talking about price, right?

Seriously though, ANY coffee place, particularly the independent ones, is better than Starbucks. And personally, I think Blue Bottle is overrated, especially for what you pay. I've had better coffee at some local LA chains, like Boy & The Bear.

Blue Bottle is more expensive for sure. But it’s also better as it usually is when we’re looking at third wave coffee places. If we’re talking value proposition then it would be most economical to buy your own preferred beans, and grind and brew at home. SF also has tons of local coffee shops as well (probably the most per capita). I just figured I’d throw out some places that someone not from SF might recognize.

LA has good coffee too. You just gotta drive to get to them. In SF, you can actually do a coffee shop crawl.

[Crawford]

I think culturally, Seattle and Bay Area have strong similarities (granted, from outsider's perspective - never lived in either). Similar passive aggressive, outdoorsy, low-key, a bit cold, highly educated, techie, Asian-WASP, anti-fashion Patagonia/no makeup look. Subarus and Teslas and modest, ridiculously priced homes.

Looks totally different, though. At the neighborhood level, Seattle looks more like Portland and Vancouver. Bay Area is dry, sunny, hot, dense, and looks more like SoCal than PNW once you get out of SF proper and a few coastal enclaves.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

This is a really great point. Immigrants account for 55% of the Founders of Unicorns in the United States.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/art...s-17328279.php

Generally speaking visa access between Canada and the US is extremely easy in skilled professions. Literally all you need is a job offer and you can show up at the border and get your visa rubber stamped from my understanding as long as you are within certain fields. Plus, you can spend up to 6 months a year in the US without a visa as long as you aren't working. The border is extremely porous with the right education.

It means a lot of Canadian-born top-tech talent moves, as Canada is basically part of the US tech labor pool.

As Lio45 said, Toronto's attraction is not home-grown tech talent, it's the easier ability to grab talent globally, significantly lower salaries, etc. A lot of tech offices in the City are subsidiary offices of FAANG and other mega-tech firms. They keep their highest level employees in Silicon Valley, but as soon as you are posting non-HQ jobs, it's just easier and way cheaper to fill them in Toronto than it is in Washington or Chicago or wherever.

An interesting side-effect of this is likely that top Canadian talent can easily move to the US to work for someone, but not as easily move to the US and start a business immediately. Probably keeps Canadian-founded tech companies down as many Canadians who may be inclined to try a start-up instead go work for FAANG as they have too poor access to capital in Toronto where they can actually legally start a company.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think culturally, Seattle and Bay Area have strong similarities (granted, from outsider's perspective - never lived in either). Similar passive aggressive, outdoorsy, low-key, a bit cold, highly educated, techie, Asian-WASP, anti-fashion Patagonia/no makeup look. Subarus and Teslas and modest, ridiculously priced homes.

I can see this, but the Bay Area is significantly more Asian.

Looks totally different, though. At the neighborhood level, Seattle looks more like Portland and Vancouver. Bay Area is dry, sunny, hot, dense, and looks more like SoCal than PNW once you get out of SF proper and a few coastal enclaves.

This was my main point. They dont really look or feel the same at all.