SAN DIEGO | Boom Rundown, Vol. 2

[SDCAL]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

This is what I don't understand about the plan. Why build a brand new arena (or Frankenstein remodel of the existing one) and only give it a 15,000 capacity? The smallest NBA arena is in New Orleans at almost 17,000. The brand new Chase Center in San Francisco is 18,000 and the Fiserv Arena in Milwaukee (also almost brand new) is 17,500. So we're going to build a new arena that still wouldn't be considered for a possible NBA team down the road? The smallest NHL arena is over 15,000. Even the redone Key Arena in Seattle (now Climate Pledge Arena) is over 17,000 and that was always a small arena when it was home to the Sonics.

Why not give the arena 17,500 capacity right off the bat? Concerts, NCAA Regionals for mens basketball, and you're set if and when an NBA or NHL team comes calling.

San Diego has a long history of doing stupid things. Passing-up acquiring Miramar when it would have been feasible and cheap. Passing-up the opportunity to build a new city hall (there were bids and renderings on this forum like a decade ago). The city chose instead to rent space at exorbitant prices and is now in the Ash street scandal. I hate to be so harsh on the city I call home, but building a low capacity stadium and then regretting it in a decade (or less) would be par for the course here.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I don’t disagree with you on that notion. SD would be a much better location for an NBA team than Vegas since the residents are less transplanty and transient. However the NBA has already pegged Seattle and Vegas to be their next targets for expansion. Seattle obviously has the strongest use case. I’m not sure if SD can do anything in the next 1-2 years that would convince the NBA it’d a better destination for a team than Vegas, but barring that, SD will have to wait until an NBA team relocates or the next round of expansion takes place. And if the NBA does expand in Vegas, that would further weaken SD’s standing as, like you’re alluding to, it would then be a 6th team in the CA sphere of influence.

So if I’m SD, I would be lobbying HARD to Adam Silver right now to convince him to choose SD over Vegas.

Putting a team in Vegas is like the league almost inviting a gambling/point shaving scandal. It will happen. The league ignores the player gambling already (probably) going on but the $$$ is so good. In a few years pro sports may be as phony as pro wrestling, with the players (or big gamblers who pay off the players as in the "Black Sox" scandal) managing the scoring so they have a winning bet.

[mello]

A couple more SD selling points vs. Vegas

Our economy is very diversified now and less open to booms and busts. In this next economic downturn LV could get hit really hard. Our research, Tech/Bio industry, Military Industrial Complex, and growing distribution hub in Otay Mesa shore up our metro area. Will we get hit yes of course but Vegas notoriously gets smashed.

Team of Mexico! The marketing opportunity to get Tijuana residents involved is there. I would also propose the SD franchise play a Mexico swing during the season against other SW teams like San Antonio, Phoenix, and LA teams in CDMX, Guadalajara, and Monterey. Over time the franchise could possibly develope a Mexico wide TV deal for viewing rights.

I have heard NBA wants Vegas because the whole Sports Gambling industry is set to explode with it being unregulated now. Other than that I don't really know why they are all on its sack

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by mello

A couple more SD selling points vs. Vegas

Our economy is very diversified now and less open to booms and busts. In this next economic downturn LV could get hit really hard. Our research, Tech/Bio industry, Military Industrial Complex, and growing distribution hub in Otay Mesa shore up our metro area. Will we get hit yes of course but Vegas notoriously gets smashed.

Team of Mexico! The marketing opportunity to get Tijuana residents involved is there. I would also propose the SD franchise play a Mexico swing during the season against other SW teams like San Antonio, Phoenix, and LA teams in CDMX, Guadalajara, and Monterey. Over time the franchise could possibly develope a Mexico wide TV deal for viewing rights.

I have heard NBA wants Vegas because the whole Sports Gambling industry is set to explode with it being unregulated now. Other than that I don't really know why they are all on its sack

Yep, the Padres could easily become "Mexico's team" as well as ours.Basketball team here would also be followed down south, although Lakers would still be numero uno in Mex., unless the SD team as you suggest plays a few games that count in the biggest Mexican cities.

[dl3000]

Originally Posted by SDCAL

San Diego has a long history of doing stupid things. Passing-up acquiring Miramar when it would have been feasible and cheap. Passing-up the opportunity to build a new city hall (there were bids and renderings on this forum like a decade ago). The city chose instead to rent space at exorbitant prices and is now in the Ash street scandal. I hate to be so harsh on the city I call home, but building a low capacity stadium and then regretting it in a decade (or less) would be par for the course here.

When accounting for both City leadership and the electorate, 100% true.

[Andy-4-SD]

BOSA DEVELOPMENT Land Holdings:

1) Pacific HWY & W Broadway (Parking Lot - Full Block)

2) Pacific HWY & W E St (Office Depot - Almost Fully Block)

3) 1st & Island Ave (Parking Lot - Full Block)

4) 10th Ave & G St (Grocery Outlet - Full Block)

5) 10th & A St (shares block with Ten Fifty B apartments - 2/3rd Block)

6) 8th & B St (plans for Apartments - full block)

Did some digging here. Bosa is sitting on many of the top sites in downtown San Diego. Do we have any update as to when they plan to develop these sites?

I'm most excited about the ones on Pacific Hwy and 1st & Island, they will have an immediate impact on the skyline.

Another thought - A block downtown in these locations is worth ~$25-40mil... 1st & Island and the ones on Pacific Hwy are worth in excess of $50mil. Sitting on a lot of valuable land here, north of $200mil. Do you think they develop every site, or maybe just making land plays and looking to sell these sites off? Could be in consideration with the shift in the market.

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

Yep, the Padres could easily become "Mexico's team" as well as ours.Basketball team here would also be followed down south, although Lakers would still be numero uno in Mex., unless the SD team as you suggest plays a few games that count in the biggest Mexican cities.

I listened to some sports talk analysis when the Padres got Juan Soto, and super-agent Scott Boras explained how they were able to afford it, and beat out the bigger teams that were interested. The Padres have done an exceptional job of cross-border promotion, and he said that while the San Diego market itself is not very big, if you combined the populations of San Diego and Tijuana, you get the 3rd largest city in America. Helps to have Hispanic players like Machado, Tatis and Soto to market as well.

If they do it right, any San Diego teams have a pretty big market to capture if they look south.

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by homebucket

I don’t disagree with you on that notion. SD would be a much better location for an NBA team than Vegas since the residents are less transplanty and transient. However the NBA has already pegged Seattle and Vegas to be their next targets for expansion. Seattle obviously has the strongest use case. I’m not sure if SD can do anything in the next 1-2 years that would convince the NBA it’d a better destination for a team than Vegas, but barring that, SD will have to wait until an NBA team relocates or the next round of expansion takes place. And if the NBA does expand in Vegas, that would further weaken SD’s standing as, like you’re alluding to, it would then be a 6th team in the CA sphere of influence.

So if I’m SD, I would be lobbying HARD to Adam Silver right now to convince him to choose SD over Vegas.

The difference between Vegas and SD right now: Vegas has T-Mobile arena already, and announced plans for another 20,000 seat NBA-level arena by the Oak View Group just south of the strip. San Diego has no NBA arenas and no plans for one. Seattle also has an NBA arena again now that the Kraken have started playing there and the Key Arena has been totally redone.

Vegas has so much private money they can get these projects off the ground quickly and there's no Coastal Commission to worry about. San Diego does not have that private money and therefore has to go through all the bureaucracy to get anything like an arena built. The NBA will happily go where cities have already built a home, and now five years or so removed from the whole fiasco with the Chargers leaving, I'm sure no leagues have any confidence that a facility can be built in the city AFTER awarding a team, so they're going to want to see the stadium/arena built first.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

The difference between Vegas and SD right now: Vegas has T-Mobile arena already, and announced plans for another 20,000 seat NBA-level arena by the Oak View Group just south of the strip. San Diego has no NBA arenas and no plans for one. Seattle also has an NBA arena again now that the Kraken have started playing there and the Key Arena has been totally redone.

Vegas has so much private money they can get these projects off the ground quickly and there's no Coastal Commission to worry about. San Diego does not have that private money and therefore has to go through all the bureaucracy to get anything like an arena built. The NBA will happily go where cities have already built a home, and now five years or so removed from the whole fiasco with the Chargers leaving, I'm sure no leagues have any confidence that a facility can be built in the city AFTER awarding a team, so they're going to want to see the stadium/arena built first.

True. The bureaucracy in California is an enormous hurdle to getting anything done. Amazing the Padres got Petco. Good thing they did, or they might be in San Antonio or Austin now. Petco should be a model on how a sports facility can be a very good thing for a city. Anything to get a new arena built. Maybe the Padres owners could get involved in a downtown arena that could get us big league hockey and basketball? The convention center management could also help, since a large arena might also attract large events like a political convention or be useful for large convention events. The Gulls could be upgraded to major league with an expansion draft, but getting basketball needs a 17,500-18,000 seat arena under construction.

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

True. The bureaucracy in California is an enormous hurdle to getting anything done. Amazing the Padres got Petco. Good thing they did, or they might be in San Antonio or Austin now. Petco should be a model on how a sports facility can be a very good thing for a city. Anything to get a new arena built. Maybe the Padres owners could get involved in a downtown arena that could get us big league hockey and basketball? The convention center management could also help, since a large arena might also attract large events like a political convention or be useful for large convention events. The Gulls could be upgraded to major league with an expansion draft, but getting basketball needs a 17,500-18,000 seat arena under construction.

Petco Park is a unicorn I think in urban sports design. The way they didn't just wall off the neighborhood but connected it with the outfield park and grass areas that are still accessible to the public even on gamedays is amazing. Plus, 81 home games a year makes that part of town very lively very often. Day games also help to increase activity down there instead of just at night. It really has been a catalyst for the whole area, in a couple years once a few more projects are finished, it will be amazing to look at an aerial photo of what it all looked like when Petco first opened.

Indoor arenas don't have the same effect on an area, so any arena plopped into some spot is going to need to be surrounded with more development, otherwise it will be a big solid wall that just impedes the natural flow of the neighborhood, it's going to be much harder to replicate the effect Petco had/has. You can either have it end up like Arco Arena was in Sacramento, out in the middle of the suburbs with no life around it, or even AT&T Stadium in Dallas that is surrounded by parking lots (cough cough Qualcomm), or they could go the Chase Center route in San Francisco, where you put this gleaming new arena right close to downtown but you don't try to make it the centerpiece of additional major development.

The new Golden 1 Center in Sacramento is pretty well embedded within the existing downtown area with shops and restaurants surrounding it, but if you look on Google Streetview, it's still a hulking, imposing structure with no connection to the neighborhood. Same with Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee that just opened a few years ago, it's mostly surrounded by nothing, though they did a great job of building the "Deer District" with outdoor shopping and dining and entertainment. Chase Center in SF is just surrounded by corporate buildings. If SD built something, recreating the magic they have with Petco would be in my mind the most important thing. Make use of the roof, somehow turn the roof, which if built in downtown would probably offer some incredible views, into a public gathering place with parks, raised solar panels that double as shade structures, outdoor dining and such. Make it seem like an extension of the neighborhood construction instead of this giant thing that looms over you from street level.

Here's a nice big surface parking lot, just one block from trolley lines. Put one there!

[SDfan]

Originally Posted by Andy-4-SD

BOSA DEVELOPMENT Land Holdings:

1) Pacific HWY & W Broadway (Parking Lot - Full Block)

2) Pacific HWY & W E St (Office Depot - Almost Fully Block)

3) 1st & Island Ave (Parking Lot - Full Block)

4) 10th Ave & G St (Grocery Outlet - Full Block)

5) 10th & A St (shares block with Ten Fifty B apartments - 2/3rd Block)

6) 8th & B St (plans for Apartments - full block)

Did some digging here. Bosa is sitting on many of the top sites in downtown San Diego. Do we have any update as to when they plan to develop these sites?

I'm most excited about the ones on Pacific Hwy and 1st & Island, they will have an immediate impact on the skyline.

Another thought - A block downtown in these locations is worth ~$25-40mil... 1st & Island and the ones on Pacific Hwy are worth in excess of $50mil. Sitting on a lot of valuable land here, north of $200mil. Do you think they develop every site, or maybe just making land plays and looking to sell these sites off? Could be in consideration with the shift in the market.

Thanks for listing these. I've been wondering what Bosa is waiting for too. From what I've heard they may be waiting for the next iteration of the downtown community plan update, which, if rumors are true, may include a push to increase the height limit in certain areas to 650ft. If that's true, it makes sense why Bosa is holding on to prime bayfront properties; they want the crown!

They're also been pivoting from condos to apartments, likely because of CA laws that make it easy to sue developers for condo construction defects up to 10 years after construction. So they may also be waiting for reforms on that issue before building more waterfront condos, while building apartments on inland properities to keep the development pipeline going.

All speculative of course.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

Petco Park is a unicorn I think in urban sports design. The way they didn't just wall off the neighborhood but connected it with the outfield park and grass areas that are still accessible to the public even on gamedays is amazing. Plus, 81 home games a year makes that part of town very lively very often. Day games also help to increase activity down there instead of just at night. It really has been a catalyst for the whole area, in a couple years once a few more projects are finished, it will be amazing to look at an aerial photo of what it all looked like when Petco first opened.

Indoor arenas don't have the same effect on an area, so any arena plopped into some spot is going to need to be surrounded with more development, otherwise it will be a big solid wall that just impedes the natural flow of the neighborhood, it's going to be much harder to replicate the effect Petco had/has. You can either have it end up like Arco Arena was in Sacramento, out in the middle of the suburbs with no life around it, or even AT&T Stadium in Dallas that is surrounded by parking lots (cough cough Qualcomm), or they could go the Chase Center route in San Francisco, where you put this gleaming new arena right close to downtown but you don't try to make it the centerpiece of additional major development.

The new Golden 1 Center in Sacramento is pretty well embedded within the existing downtown area with shops and restaurants surrounding it, but if you look on Google Streetview, it's still a hulking, imposing structure with no connection to the neighborhood. Same with Fiserv Forum in Milwaukee that just opened a few years ago, it's mostly surrounded by nothing, though they did a great job of building the "Deer District" with outdoor shopping and dining and entertainment. Chase Center in SF is just surrounded by corporate buildings. If SD built something, recreating the magic they have with Petco would be in my mind the most important thing. Make use of the roof, somehow turn the roof, which if built in downtown would probably offer some incredible views, into a public gathering place with parks, raised solar panels that double as shade structures, outdoor dining and such. Make it seem like an extension of the neighborhood construction instead of this giant thing that looms over you from street level.

Here's a nice big surface parking lot, just one block from trolley lines. Put one there!

How about something novel--an arena with a retractable roof? Most games in SD could be played with the roof open, especially day games when it would be warmer. Of course during cold or hot or rainy days the roof could be in place. To invite the outside public, have public viewing glass wall or fence alongside a walkway outside the arena like they have at ATT Park in SF. Even hockey games could be played with an open roof. The ice is refrigerated.

Maybe even one side of the arena could incorporate a multilevel restaurant and viewing spaces with glass walls where the public outside could catch views of the game. Maybe a nominal fee, say $5 or $10, could be charged to enter this non ticketed SRO space with eating facilities. The outdide SRO fans could move around from one restaurant/bar facility to another. Ticketed fans from the arena could enter and leave this SRO area as well to mingle and eat and watch the game. But non ticketed SRO viewers could not enter the regular arena. Semipermeability. Restaurants in the area would pay a reasonable rent to the arena and teams to operate stands in this SRO area. The restaurants could also cater to the nearby private boxes of wealthy fans and corporations. It should be lucrative for all. In essence recreate the openness of a baseball park like Petco or ATT, which is in essence your advice as well.

[ucsbgaucho]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

How about something novel--an arena with a retractable roof? Most games in SD could be played with the roof open, especially day games when it would be warmer. Of course during cold or hot or rainy days the roof could be in place. To invite the outside public, have public viewing glass wall or fence alongside a walkway outside the arena like they have at ATT Park in SF. Even hockey games could be played with an open roof. The ice is refrigerated.

Maybe even one side of the arena could incorporate a multilevel restaurant and viewing spaces with glass walls where the public outside could catch views of the game. Maybe a nominal fee, say $5 or $10, could be charged to enter this non ticketed SRO space with eating facilities. The outdide SRO fans could move around from one restaurant/bar facility to another. Ticketed fans from the arena could enter and leave this SRO area as well to mingle and eat and watch the game. But non ticketed SRO viewers could not enter the regular arena. Semipermeability. Restaurants in the area would pay a reasonable rent to the arena and teams to operate stands in this SRO area. The restaurants could also cater to the nearby private boxes of wealthy fans and corporations. It should be lucrative for all. In essence recreate the openness of a baseball park like Petco or ATT, which is in essence your advice as well.

Problem with open-air is the elements. In San Diego it would be moisture from the ocean air, would probably wreak havoc on the floor and eventually the building itself. Also, wind, even slight breezes, would cause problems as the building would naturally create it's own wind tunnels. They've done the aircraft carrier games a few times in SD and that was an issue even during the games that got played. Especially since NBA is a winter league, you'll have the Santa Ana winds in the fall and then the wet air the rest of winter.

I'd suggest sinking the stadium down like they had to do with SoFi, but if it's built anywhere near downtown you're so close to sea level that might be an issue with the water table. But that would help to create less of an imposing monolithic structure on the surrounding neighborhood.

There's probably no real way to truly incorporate an NBA arena that has to be fully enclosed like they did with Petco, but there's plenty of unique, untested ways to make it more friendly and interactive for those who don't have a game ticket.

[Pswsal]

First time poster here. Bosa has updated their website for 9th and B “Coming Soon”.

https://thinkbosa.com/project/ninth-avenue-b-street/

Here’s a photo of the site that I took from my son’s apartment at Diega 8/13/22:

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by ucsbgaucho

Problem with open-air is the elements. In San Diego it would be moisture from the ocean air, would probably wreak havoc on the floor and eventually the building itself. Also, wind, even slight breezes, would cause problems as the building would naturally create it's own wind tunnels. They've done the aircraft carrier games a few times in SD and that was an issue even during the games that got played. Especially since NBA is a winter league, you'll have the Santa Ana winds in the fall and then the wet air the rest of winter.

I'd suggest sinking the stadium down like they had to do with SoFi, but if it's built anywhere near downtown you're so close to sea level that might be an issue with the water table. But that would help to create less of an imposing monolithic structure on the surrounding neighborhood.

There's probably no real way to truly incorporate an NBA arena that has to be fully enclosed like they did with Petco, but there's plenty of unique, untested ways to make it more friendly and interactive for those who don't have a game ticket.

Leaving the retractable roof idea for the moment, I think the SRO/restaurant levels open to the non ticket holders could work. They would pay a fee, and could view the game while eating/drinking. Ticket holders could also enter, but non ticket holders couldn't enter the arena from the SRO area.

[roletand]

Originally Posted by Pswsal

First time poster here. Bosa has updated their website for 9th and B “Coming Soon”.

https://thinkbosa.com/project/ninth-avenue-b-street/

Here’s a photo of the site that I took from my son’s apartment at Diega 8/13/22:

Thanks for sharing! That's a good vantage point on the site. It highlights how much space is dedicated to the future public park/plaza on the Southern half of the block.

[roletand]

Believe it or not, we have another one! The crane at The Lindley went up this weekend. Barring any cranes coming down that I missed, that raises the count to 15.

1 Crane - Simone, Alexan Little Italy, Trammell Crow Residential, Union & Ash, https://www.crowholdings.com/alexan-little-italy
0 Cranes - One Broadway Hotel, Manchester Pacific Gateway, Manchester Financial, Broadway & Pacific Hwy, https://www.manchesterpacificgateway.com/
1 Crane - RaDD Block 2A, IQHQ, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
2 Cranes - RaDD Block 2B, IQHQ, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
1 Crane - RaDD Block 3A, IQHQ, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
1 Crane - RaDD Block 4A, IQHQ, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
1 Crane - RaDD Block 4B, IQHQ, Harbor Drive & Pacific Hwy, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
1 Crane - 8th & B 9th Ave. & B St., Bosa, 8th & B, https://thinkbosa.com/project/ninth-avenue-b-street/
1 Crane - 800 Broadway, CA Ventures, 8th & Broadway
1 Crane - West, Courthouse Commons, Holland Partners, Union & Broadway
1 Crane - Radian, Cisterra, 9th & G, https://www.cisterra.com/radian
1 Crane - The Lindley, Milano, Toll Brothers, Columbia & Ash, https://www.livethelindley.com/
1 Crane - Broadway Towers (Tower 2), Pinnacle International, 11th & Broadway, https://broadwaytowers.com/
1 Crane - Jefferson Makers Quarter, JPI Development, 15th & Broadway
1 Crane - Elevate Hotel, K Elevate 10th Street Property, LLC, 10th & Island

[HurricaneHugo]

800 Broadway

(I think...)

[Streamliner]

Thanks pswsal! That's a deep hole. I drove past it the other day I'm glad I didn't see this pic beforehand otherwise I'd have been really nervous.

I thought my knowledge of downtown projects was pretty good, but when I drive there and I realize how much is going on and I can't keep up.

[Streamliner]

Mayor recommends Midway Rising for selection in sports arena competition
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...na-competition
Jennifer Van Grove
August 22, 2022
San Diego Union-Tribune

The plan calls for a total of 4,250 residential units, a brand-new 16,000-seat arena, a 200-room hotel and 20 acres of open space. The group is also proposing 250,000 square feet of commercial space concentrated in a central public plaza.

...

The master development team is comprised of market-rate housing developer Zephyr, sports-and-entertainment venue operator Legends and affordable-housing builder Chelsea Investment Corp. The group’s development program would be completed in phases over a 10-year period, result in $2.5 billion in direct spending on construction and produce $27.5 million in annual tax revenue, according to the team’s response to the city’s notice of availability.

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