Streetcars in Canada

[swimmer_spe]

I am starting this thread to discuss all things streetcar related in Canada. Lets talk of the past, present and future.

[swimmer_spe]

Lot's of our cities had some sort of streetcar system in place. Part of me wonders what the systems would be like if they were kept, maintained and improved.
Would we have better traffic in the cities?
Would our carbon footprint be smaller?

[Nouvellecosse]

I think if transit in general had been better prioritized and maintained and the type of streets that were designed in the streetcar era and prior had been continued rather than everything designed to be auto-friendly then there would be a smaller carbon footprint. But I don't think that there would be less traffic necessarily. Well, there would be in terms of the total number of motor vehicles clogging the roads but not in terms of things like the percentage of roads that were congested, average road travel speed, etc. In other words, there would be less total traffic since there would be less road capacity but the road capacity that did exist would be just as heavily congested. But that would be ok since many more people would be traveling in the additional subways and transit ROWs that would have been built and far fewer vehicles would be stuck in traffic and wasting energy.

But in terms of the carbon footprint from just keeping streetcars? For that we can just look at the difference between the inner parts of Toronto and Montreal. My guess is that while having so many busy surface routes electrified does help... a little... the difference would be small enough in magnitude that it would be outweighed by many other factors. If the average private auto in one city is say, 5% less fuel efficient than in the other, or if 5 percentage points more people use transit or active transportation in one city than the other, etc. these would all make a bigger total difference.

Overall, I think the streetcars would provide more indirect rather than direct benefits, and it's hard to tell which of these related effects are actually indirect benefits from the streetcars and which would just be correlated with them in that the continued existence of the streetcars being just one of the benefits caused by something else such as differences in governance, culture or economics. For instance, if we didn't have domestic oil and we decided to go on an energy minimizing trajectory like France did then we could have seen more streetcar routage survive along with many other differences in urban design policy all as a result.

[Al Ski]

I wish MTL had have kept their streetcars.

I often imagine streets like St-Laurent, Ste-Cath, Jean-Talon, Parc etc. with streetcars..
They just seem like naturals.

But it's more than likely, at that time, traffic would have simply been mixed in without any accommodation for proper signal priority, right of ways etc.

We'd still be in the same mess - but with streetcars.

Still love the streetcars. Whenever I go to Toronto I always take a streetcar - just because! (I miss the old ones, used to love sitting at the back!)

[rousseau]

My impression is that streetcar lines separated from road traffic a la Spadina or any number of European cities are optimal above all else. Nice views, no traffic jams, a smooth ride and a lower deck. What's not to love?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Al Ski

(I miss the old ones!).

First contentious argument of the thread. The old ones blew, they were too high and had that awful gaping opening at the ass-end.

The new ones are dreamy.

But your other point is taken. Montreal with streetcars would be too awesome. Toronto would have to just give up and go home.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rousseau

First contentious argument of the thread. The old ones blew, they were too high and had that awful gaping opening at the ass-end.

The new ones are dreamy.

But your other point is taken. Montreal with streetcars would be too awesome. Toronto would have to just give up and go home.

I think he means the line, not the old cars.

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by rousseau

First contentious argument of the thread. The old ones blew, they were too high and had that awful gaping opening at the ass-end.

The new ones are dreamy.

But your other point is taken. Montreal with streetcars would be too awesome. Toronto would have to just give up and go home.

Well, obviously the new ones are way better, perhaps I'm just reminiscing.

Sitting in the back meant sitting with all the weirdos and being able to give all the people behind you the finger - with no repercussions. (might get shot today)

There was that little metal bit on the sides that you might be able to semi-perch on if you didn't have a total fatass sitting on the seat next to you..

I just liked the view. Haven't experienced all aspects of the new ones.

[ue]

So much of Winnipeg was built around the streetcar that it is so egregious how much the city has undermined that built-in orientation in order to ram cars through every part of the city at all costs. The most Winnipeg can imagine now is a BRT system which, if the Blue Line is any indication, doesn't inspire much confidence. At least Edmonton and Calgary didn't stand much of a chance.

Streetcars (preferably a la the Spadina Streetcar - they weren't meant to operate in mixed traffic, that only happened due to corporate lobbying) would work well in most sizable Canadian cities. In places like Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, and Montreal, they could complement existing urban rail transit. In Hamilton, Winnipeg, and Quebec City, they could complement a future light rail system. Then in other cities still, from Victoria to Saskatoon to Kingston to Trois Rivieres to Halifax, they would work well as a core urban transit.

[WhipperSnapper]

I appreciate the old streetcar lengths. The new ones are impossible to pass.

I'm no longer in a commuter position so I can't tell if things have changed with the new streetcars. Most people were happy to see a bus replacement show up at their streetcar stop. The whole streetcar would rise in agreement overhearing one of the passengers ask the driver if the bus replacement was permanent. I prefer the smoother ride and open space offered by streetcars. The bus replacement was 20% faster.

[canucklehead2]

We should strive to rebuild ALL of Canada's defunct systems using new battery-electric trams. Rails good! Wires? Ish...

[ssiguy]

I've never understood the recent fascination with streetcars.

If they are already there then I can see keeping them as they offer a smooth and comfortable ride as well as having high capacity. I can also see extensions of those system but as far as building new systems, I think they are little more than vanity projects.

BRT offers the same service as streetcars but is vastly cheaper and easier to implement. The ride quality of buses has also increased greatly due to battery/hydrogen making them non-polluting, have far faster acceleration, and are much quieter inside and out. Battery buses also don't have the upkeep and unsightliness of overhead wires. For the ridiculous amount spent on 10km of streetcar you could get 40km of equally fast BRT serving hundreds more destination and tens of thousands of more riders.

This "look Mom I have a streetcar too" crap is a classic example of poor transit planning made by politicians who are more concerned with ribbon cutting ceremonies than providing the best transit for the masses.

[canucklehead2]

Saying bus and rail are the same or interchangeable is entirely inaccurate the way just because Dennis and Randy are both Quaids makes them essentially the same. No.just... No.

[canucklehead2]

You buy cheap, you buy twice.

[casper]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

We should strive to rebuild ALL of Canada's defunct systems using new battery-electric trams. Rails good! Wires? Ish...

All is a fairly broad definition it would encompass putting them back into cities like Victoria and Saskatoon. Even places like Nelson.

I like where your going with this. These smaller communities deserve higher order public transit as much as the next guys.

[canucklehead2]

They are good at reclaiming the street from cars by saying, Move B*tch get out the way like a Ludichris banger and that's a good thing. Even places like Whistler and Banff should have streetcar systems because of their immense tourist draw issues. Especially if linked to bigger cities with regional rail connections.

[Al Ski]

It's sad when you go to Germany and the little cities outside of Berlin in Brandenburg State, with populations of 60-175 thousand, have 5-line tram networks while cities here with populations nearing a million have nothing at all. But we might get 1 line.. sometime..
But hey, have you heard about that 4 hour GO service from London to Toronto? lol!

[Al Ski]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I've never understood the recent fascination with streetcars.

If they are already there then I can see keeping them as they offer a smooth and comfortable ride as well as having high capacity. I can also see extensions of those system but as far as building new systems, I think they are little more than vanity projects.

BRT offers the same service as streetcars but is vastly cheaper and easier to implement. The ride quality of buses has also increased greatly due to battery/hydrogen making them non-polluting, have far faster acceleration, and are much quieter inside and out. Battery buses also don't have the upkeep and unsightliness of overhead wires. For the ridiculous amount spent on 10km of streetcar you could get 40km of equally fast BRT serving hundreds more destination and tens of thousands of more riders.

This "look Mom I have a streetcar too" crap is a classic example of poor transit planning made by politicians who are more concerned with ribbon cutting ceremonies than providing the best transit for the masses.

Advanced nations have seamlessly interwoven tram networks into their transportation networks for eons- they're a non-controversial piece in most places where they also use buses as a natural extension of service.

There's no controversy over trams in any city that has had them for ages any more than subways or S-Bahns or whatever.

Would you be more excited if there were hydrogen trams?

And let's face it: BRT is the lowest cost option when you have crap transit and you're not willing to spend the cash to implement serious transit.

That's why BRT is being promoted. Let's not fool ourselves.

It's cheap, we're cheap.. let's study it for 20 years!

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This "look Mom I have a streetcar too" crap is a classic example of poor transit planning made by politicians who are more concerned with ribbon cutting ceremonies than providing the best transit for the masses.

This is a common enough point-of-view, but also an incredibly lazy and useless contribution to the discussion. If this is true, you should be able to back it up. Where do you think this is the case, and what evidence do you have that they didn't do due diligence and consider alternatives?

[Dengler Avenue]

I was driving on Don Valley Parkway last Saturday and saw rail tracks in the middle of Eglinton Avenue. At first I was wondering which street car route goes on that road. Then I realized that it was the future LRT.
It goes to show that the two are really indistinguishable in Toronto nowadays.