[Dartmouth] King's Wharf (Building E) | 85 m | 27 fl | U/C

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The area that I consider to be 'old Dartmouth' was never really a suburb, but just part of of Dartmouth as it grew from town to city status (before amalgamation).

Quaker House on Ochterloney is one of many that were built in the 1700s, and adjacent neighbourhoods sprouted up as the city grew. Like most cities that are situated on harbours, it started from the water and grew inland. The neighbourhood where I lived for many years was built in the early 1900s, long before the concept of 'the suburbs' was really a thing in Canada. It was only a 10 minute walk from the ferry, and many people who lived there were able to walk to work in DT Halifax from their Dartmouth home. Not really the classic definition of car-reliant suburb living, IMHO.

I would consider places like Woodlawn or Cole Harbour to be suburbs of Dartmouth, in the traditional sense.

I figure calling Ochterloney st. a suburb would be the equivalent of calling the South End a suburb. I hadn't realized the age of Quaker house.

I was thinking of areas such as Prince Arthur Rd., but now I must admit Early postwar suburb would have been a more accuate term that avoided confusion with old Dartmouth.

[Drybrain]

I've always just seen downtown Dartmouth, and the immediately adjacent residential areas, as neighbourhoods within central Halifax, certainly not suburbs of any sort. That's how they're treated in the Centre Plan, and how they function in terms of the real-estate market. And it's how I think most people--besides diehard Dartmouth partisans--view them.

In fairness, this is a very small area, say the bottom of Lake Banook to the harbour, Woodland Avenue in the east, and Prince Arthur Avenue in the west. And the edges of those areas are pretty suburban even so. (Like Halifax, it's really too bad Dartmouth didn't have another decade or two of solid growth in the pre-war years to bulk up.)

But it's all Halifax to me.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Even some of us 'diehard Dartmouth partisans', as you put it, would agree with that, especially since amalgamation occurred some 24 years ago.

In my opinion, central Dartmouth is not much different than north end Halifax - there are many similarities both physically, structurally, and functionally.

However, it appears that many Haligonians still consider Dartmouth as a separate region, to the point that it has been given the 'Darkside' nickname.

I do agree with your assessment, though.

[pchipman]

The major attraction for me on the Dartmouth side are the lakes. Downtown Dartmouth in the summertime is a special place. Having the canoe clubs in walking distance to the downtown and ferries creates a unique environment that can be bolstered by dense urban development.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

In fairness, this is a very small area, say the bottom of Lake Banook to the harbour, Woodland Avenue in the east, and Prince Arthur Avenue in the west. And the edges of those areas are pretty suburban even so. (Like Halifax, it's really too bad Dartmouth didn't have another decade or two of solid growth in the pre-war years to bulk up.)

I think Dartmouth has some vestigial small town feel too. It's halfway between a neighbourhood of the city and say Truro. A lot of people like this style; their ideal is a house on a quiet side street with some shops and schools within walking distance. The existence of areas like this is a real benefit in NS (Western Canada has very little in the way of these small towns near cities for example) and I don't think it is quite being taken advantage of right now.

Halifax and Dartmouth really missed out on the 1910's and 1920's boom. The Victorian and earlier buildings and the 1930's and later buildings are pretty good. In particular the city would have gotten more medium sized and somewhat more ornate looking brick/stone apartment blocks in that era I think. Maybe in a slightly different universe Dartmouth would have gotten a highrise office building in the 1920's or a fancy terracotta office block in 1910.

One bad thing that Dartmouth has suffered from is the very high demolition rate for old industrial buildings. A few landmarks like a nicely restored Starr Manufacturing would have really anchored the Canal St area. Dartmouth looks smaller than it was because of all the demolition. Example:

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

[Dartguard]

[QUOTE=someone123;9147316]
Halifax and Dartmouth really missed out on the 1910's and 1920's boom. The Victorian and earlier buildings and the 1930's and later buildings are pretty good. In particular the city would have gotten more medium sized and somewhat more ornate looking brick/stone apartment blocks in that era I think. Maybe in a slightly different universe Dartmouth would have gotten a highrise office building in the 1920's or a fancy terracotta office block in 1910.

That's a good point 123. I really don't think that people really understood the ripples of devastation that the War and Explosion had on the Halifax region.

To put it in perspective the present GTA has about 6 Million people. Halifax at the time of the explosion had a metro population of 60,000. Dec 6 1917 wiped out just under 2000 people and permanently altered the lives of 9,000 more. What is not commonly acknowledged however is the reduction of population after the explosion and into the 1920's.

Halifax missed out on the roaring twenties as the recovery and rebuilding of the city took up any creative urges or private Capital not to mention direct intervention of the Federal government. Social policies and pensions plus the first Public housing complex were the result of the 1920's in Halifax but also many decades of missed growth and opportunity. It feels in some ways that our present booming experience is Karma catching up from 100 Years ago.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

To put it in perspective the present GTA has about 6 Million people. Halifax at the time of the explosion had a metro population of 60,000. Dec 6 1917 wiped out just under 2000 people and permanently altered the lives of 9,000 more. What is not commonly acknowledged however is the reduction of population after the explosion and into the 1920's.

This was also around the time of WWI and the 1918 flu epidemic. Can't remember the exact number but it was something along the lines of young males in 1910's Halifax having about a 30% mortality rate (died of disease or died in the war or died in the explosion). It was an extremely harsh period for the city.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by someone123

One bad thing that Dartmouth has suffered from is the very high demolition rate for old industrial buildings. A few landmarks like a nicely restored Starr Manufacturing would have really anchored the Canal St area. Dartmouth looks smaller than it was because of all the demolition. Example:

A lot of similar industrial buildings were conserved here in KW, and repurposed into either offices or condos. I suppose the conditions of Dartmouth unfortunately never led to anything similar.


Source: Allied Properties REIT https://www.alliedreit.com/property/...-street-south/

Before:

Source: Waterloo Region Generations https://generations.regionofwaterloo...p?mediaID=4326

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

A lot of similar industrial buildings were conserved here in KW, and repurposed into either offices or condos. I suppose the conditions of Dartmouth unfortunately never led to anything similar.

Some of it must have been simple timing. A lot of the Ontario industrial buildings are from the 1910's and 20's. In NS they tended to be from around 1900 and earlier. The Dartmouth rope works was I think started in 1868 with some major physical facilities being built on that date. Then of course the Halifax Explosion physically destroyed or damaged many of the city's industrial buildings. The old Robie Piercey's for example was originally a multistory brick mill structure, partly damaged in the explosion. Clayton & Sons was perhaps the biggest and was seriously damaged.

Another aspect is clearly the lack of value placed on heritage in Nova Scotia. The Old Mill got torn down just a few years ago. It didn't collapse from disuse, it was torn down for the Wyse Rd Sobeys. Saving it, in the scheme of things, would not have been difficult. The Robie Street building was deliberately torn down too and remains a parking lot. I think Moirs was just demolished for 70's development.

Not sure when Starr bit the dust or what shape it was in.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by someone123

Some of it must have been simple timing. A lot of the Ontario industrial buildings are from the 1910's and 20's. In NS they tended to be from around 1900 and earlier. The Dartmouth rope works was I think started in 1868 with some major physical facilities being built on that date. Then of course the Halifax Explosion physically destroyed or damaged many of the city's industrial buildings. The old Robie Piercey's for example was originally a multistory brick mill structure, partly damaged in the explosion. Clayton & Sons was perhaps the biggest and was seriously damaged.

Another aspect is clearly the lack of value placed on heritage in Nova Scotia. The Old Mill got torn down just a few years ago. It didn't collapse from disuse, it was torn down for the Wyse Rd Sobeys. Saving it, in the scheme of things, would not have been difficult. The Robie Street building was deliberately torn down too and remains a parking lot. I think Moirs was just demolished for 70's development.

Not sure when Starr bit the dust or what shape it was in.

I was wondering the same thing, a lot of Halifax’s old industrial stock dated to the Victorian era; here in KW they date to the Edwardian era. The explosion and its aftermath definitely don’t help either.

I do agree with your statement on how we value heritage structures. Nova Scotia may have many structures older than what’s seen in Ontario due to its longer history, but because of the perceived abundance they’re taken for granted and neglected.
A side story that embodies this attitude is how Nova Scotia is one of the few provinces that hasn’t outlawed “treasure hunting”, which is why a show like Oak Island gets filmed in NS.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I've always just seen downtown Dartmouth, and the immediately adjacent residential areas, as neighbourhoods within central Halifax, certainly not suburbs of any sort. That's how they're treated in the Centre Plan, and how they function in terms of the real-estate market. And it's how I think most people--besides diehard Dartmouth partisans--view them.

In fairness, this is a very small area, say the bottom of Lake Banook to the harbour, Woodland Avenue in the east, and Prince Arthur Avenue in the west. And the edges of those areas are pretty suburban even so. (Like Halifax, it's really too bad Dartmouth didn't have another decade or two of solid growth in the pre-war years to bulk up.)

But it's all Halifax to me.

I'm not sure I would use the Centre Plan as any guide to Dartmouth neighborhoods. It badly misses the mark. And Dartmouth developed historically quite differently than Halifax did.

The thing about Dartmouth is that the actual historic area is quite small. The old DT area is fairly easy to define in the area around Alderney, Ochterloney and lower Portland St. If you look at the buildings it is easy to see that topography had a lot to do with how Dartmouth grew over time back then. You have older houses heading out along what is now Prince Albert Rd and on the opposite side of the lake there, along the DT ends of Portland and Pleasant St., on the streets connecting those streets, and along the harbor shore. But the steep hill to the north really kept those areas from much development. If you look at the area surrounding Brightwood, and Woodland and beyond, they really didn't see much development until the time of WWII for some neighborhoods where prefabs still stand much like north-end Halifax, and then the 1950s and '60s. Dartmouth was a small town until then.

The lack of historic industrial buildings is in part because there were few large masonry structures. The Starr works were all wooden buildings that became very run down in the first part of the 20th century after the business shut down. The explosion took out many of the industries near the site of the blast like the original Dartmouth brewery that became either Olands on Agricola or Moosehead in Saint John (I forget which branch of the family owned that and relocated). The rope works building survived but was in a location that had no demand or purpose to an expensive rebuild/repurpose. The sugar refinery in Woodside suffered from the same problem. There really weren't a whole lot of those types of buildings in Dartmouth and none really close to downtown.

The most glaring error could well have been the construction of Alderney Drive and the clearing of most of the buildings along there. Few of them were notable and most were run-down wooden structures, some of which had unfortunate commercial remodels done post-war, but it would have been interesting to reimagine what could have been done of they were rebuilt/restored as happened in DT Halifax.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I think Keith's assessment above is pretty much on the money. Even though I grew up there, I don't recall much along the line of major industrial buildings in Dartmouth, as most of it was long gone by the time I came onto the scene. However, to be honest, as a kid I didn't pay much attention to industrial buildings and such.

Regarding Starr Manufacturing, I recall that the actual old wooden structure had become quite run down, even though it was still a functioning business until 1996, according the web page linked below (also source of images). The web page says it was torn down in the year 2000, but I recall vaguely in the news that there was a bit of an between a developer who wanted to build on the land and a group that wanted it preserved as an important part of Dartmouth's history. IIRC, a mysterious fire put an end to the struggle.





Source

A positive of the Starr situation was the ability to unearth the workings of the Dartmouth Marine Railway from the Shubenacadie Canal system and turning it into a public space, which IMHO, is a nice consolation.

https://www.shubenacadiecanal.ca/sta...marine-railway

Regarding the brewery destroyed in the Halifax Explosion (photo below), apparently after the explosion one part of the family opened Oland's Brewery in Halifax, and the other part moved to Saint John, NB, to open Moosehead Brewery.



Source

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The most glaring error could well have been the construction of Alderney Drive and the clearing of most of the buildings along there. Few of them were notable and most were run-down wooden structures, some of which had unfortunate commercial remodels done post-war, but it would have been interesting to reimagine what could have been done of they were rebuilt/restored as happened in DT Halifax.

I honestly don't think there was much of anything on the western side of Commercial Street worth saving.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I honestly don't think there was much of anything on the western side of Commercial Street worth saving.

I agree that it was pretty gritty from what I remember. Of course so was most of Water St in DT Halifax back then. Building Alderney Gate now seems a mistake in retrospect though.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I agree that it was pretty gritty from what I remember. Of course so was most of Water St in DT Halifax back then. Building Alderney Gate now seems a mistake in retrospect though.

So, what alternative would you have preferred? Seriously, what used to be there was not by any stretch of the imagination worth saving or renovating.

I don't find Alderney Gate terribly objectionable, and at least it hasn't cut off access to the waterfront.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

So, what alternative would you have preferred? Seriously, what used to be there was not by any stretch of the imagination worth saving or renovating.

I don't find Alderney Gate terribly objectionable, and at least it hasn't cut off access to the waterfront.

I would not presume to propose an alternative as I am not a designer. I find the existing development there monolithic and somewhat of a rabbit warren, not at all inviting. It has not been particularly successful and without HRM leasing much of the space would probably have failed commercially. It would be interesting to consider what other options might have worked better.

[OldDartmouthMark]

While it may be easy to find flaws in Alderney Landing from a 2021 perspective, I think it's important to recognize that in the 1980s it was considered to be a very nice development with the new Dartmouth Library location, much better than the Halifax side of the ferry terminal (arguably, it still is), and head and shoulders above what was there before.

I'm struggling hard to not derail this thread any further into the Dartmouth history realm, but at the link are pics of the west side of Alderney Drive in the 1970s (I'd say early 1970s). By the '80s it was looking much more run down, after the Metropolitan store vacated the premises, and once Little Nashville moved in...

https://gencat.eloquent-systems.com/...ml?key=5017528

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

While it may be easy to find flaws in Alderney Landing from a 2021 perspective, I think it's important to recognize that in the 1980s it was considered to be a very nice development with the new Dartmouth Library location, much better than the Halifax side of the ferry terminal (arguably, it still is), and head and shoulders above what was there before.

Yeah, my Mum still talks about when the Alderny library opened and how taking us there as small kids seemed all so wonderful and magical. Now, compared to the newer libraries it just seems quaint. I think the same can be said for the overall Alderny Gate building: in the Dartmouth of my childhood it was a big deal, even if it seems awkward now.

[someone123]

I always thought the Alderney complex was pretty good. It's a multi-modal transit hub and community hub. To my mind the problem with it is the lack of development around it and integration into the area. Alderney Dr is not very appealing (it seems over-traffic-engineered) and there are a lot of underused lots nearby.

Another slightly odd thing is that it's aligned with Queen Street which is a pseudo-alley and not Portland Street.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I always thought the Alderney complex was pretty good. It's a multi-modal transit hub and community hub. To my mind the problem with it is the lack of development around it and integration into the area. Alderney Dr is not very appealing (it seems over-traffic-engineered) and there are a lot of underused lots nearby.

Another slightly odd thing is that it's aligned with Queen Street which is a pseudo-alley and not Portland Street.

Transit has never really made it into anything resembling a hub. The ferry system is not integrated with bus schedules; there is very poor signage or any kind of information directing passengers how to get to where they want to go - it assumes you know what bus you need to take you wherever - there isn't (AFAIK) even signage directing you to the sidewalk where the bus stops are. And god help you if you need to go to points north. It seems Transit feels that everyone should just hike up the hill to the Sportsplex and take their chances there. It is really very poorly done and has always been so.

Every time I see an empty 320 bus heading to/from the airport I wonder (a) why are they still running that so often with passenger demand approaching zero, and (b) how hard would it be to have a shuttle running at high frequency in a circle between Alderney and the Sportsplex terminal?