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  #21  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2021, 8:22 PM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
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I lived in one of these Noe Valley houses (third from left with the orange front door) for a number of years in the late 70s/early 80s. My boyfriend bought the house from an old lady in 1975 for less than $50,000, but that's an altogether different topic! Anyway, the house was built in 1907 or 1908, a simple working class single family home. The present day garage felt like it had been there since the beginning, but I suspect the driveway and garage opening were actually carved out of the existing "basement", a low ceiling affair that had a simple interior stairway up to the main floor and a rear door to the back yard. Most of the homes throughout Noe Valley have similar garages that probably were not original. I can't seem to find any early Noe Valley street scenes that show homes in their original condition. Noe Valley was largely developed in the aftermath of the 1906 earthquake and fire.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/43...4d-122.4396569

Last edited by austlar1; Nov 20, 2021 at 8:34 PM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2021, 9:48 PM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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Most of the Sunset was technically built prewar (in the 1930-1940s), but by then I guess the automobile was already well on its way to becoming commonplace, hence the garages. The houses were also built with affordability in mind (ironic given the prices these days).

Prior to this, it was known as Carville By The Sea, since it existed as a streetcar suburb. Many old dilapidated streetcars got dumped here and eventually converted to housing.

And they were dumped here because it used to be all sand dunes, known as the "Outside Lands".

It may not be pretty or especially urban, but it certainly is uniquely instantly recognizable as SF.











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  #23  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 4:11 AM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Oh yeah it definitely gets a lot less severe near the central downtown areas where there's more retail but they're still commonly found even there.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7911...7i16384!8i8192

I just don't get how this happened, it's kinda bizarre. It's not like SF is a sunbelt city, and by US standards it's pre-war building stock is well preserved. Yet no other US city has this many street facing garages.
These I was also curious about. They look like they were added afterwards. Windows or retail space punched out for garage space perhaps. Then there was thing I came across...

San Francisco by ConfusedWithACamera, on Flickr
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  #24  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 3:39 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Curb cuts are the main reason SF doesn't have quite the same street-level quality as cities on its urban tier. Boston and Philly have proportionally far fewer curb cuts (as well as narrower streets) and it makes a big difference from the pedestrian perspective.

Granted, SF still has fantastic urbanity for U.S. standards, and easily the best urbanity west of the Mississippi (and plausibly the best urbanity outside the Northeast), but the proliferation of curb cuts is a negative.
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  #25  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 4:13 PM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Curb cuts are the main reason SF doesn't have quite the same street-level quality as cities on its urban tier. Boston and Philly have proportionally far fewer curb cuts (as well as narrower streets) and it makes a big difference from the pedestrian perspective.

Granted, SF still has fantastic urbanity for U.S. standards, and easily the best urbanity west of the Mississippi (and plausibly the best urbanity outside the Northeast), but the proliferation of curb cuts is a negative.

Well, the curb cuts don’t affect pedestrians unless they run the total width of the sidewalk. There are also the street corner curb cuts meant to provide access to wheelchairs that are not a negative. It’s a small potatoes argument, frankly.
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  #26  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 4:22 PM
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Well, the curb cuts don’t affect pedestrians unless they run the total width of the sidewalk. There are also the street corner curb cuts meant to provide access to wheelchairs that are not a negative. It’s a small potatoes argument, frankly.
All these cuts affect the whole sidewalk, so put pedestrians at risk.

We're not talking about wheelchair accessibility over sidewalks (which is a good thing for pedestrians and presents no safety issues) but vehicle accessibility over sidewalks (which presents significant safety issues).
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  #27  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 4:31 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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I think the bigger detractor for SF is having fewer mixed use buildings versus the curb cuts. The curb cuts just seem to be a symptom of that, and the link to the streetview in Noe Valley above is a good example. It's a very densely built neighborhood, but there doesn't really seem like most people who live there are within a five minute walk of any amenities.
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  #28  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 4:43 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I think the bigger detractor for SF is having fewer mixed use buildings versus the curb cuts. The curb cuts just seem to be a symptom of that, and the link to the streetview in Noe Valley above is a good example. It's a very densely built neighborhood, but there doesn't really seem like most people who live there are within a five minute walk of any amenities.
That street is literally a 2-3 min walk to the nearest park and coffee shop, Thai restaurant, and dog groomer, lol.
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  #29  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 5:58 PM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
All these cuts affect the whole sidewalk, so put pedestrians at risk.

We're not talking about wheelchair accessibility over sidewalks (which is a good thing for pedestrians and presents no safety issues) but vehicle accessibility over sidewalks (which presents significant safety issues).

There are safety issues, I get your drift, esp. compounded by the width of some of those streets. Statistically, the many cuts will make things wilder from a pedestrian’s POV. I don’t know which is worse though, the cardboard architecture or the urban planning of that era.
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  #30  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 7:14 PM
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That street is literally a 2-3 min walk to the nearest park and coffee shop, Thai restaurant, and dog groomer, lol.
And maybe a 5-7 minute walk over to the main retail strip on 24th with loads of ped-friendly destinations.

That may not be impressive by NYC urbanism standards, but in the vast majority of other US cities not named new york, that's a perfectly acceptable walking distance to a commercial street for a non-core primarily residential city neighborhood.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 21, 2021 at 8:26 PM.
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  #31  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 8:04 PM
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That street is literally a 2-3 min walk to the nearest park and coffee shop, Thai restaurant, and dog groomer, lol.
Yeah,that was stupidity and trolling. You can walk to whatever you want in Noe Valley in such beautiful neighborhoods. There are so many bottom floor neighborhood markets, coffee shops, deli's dry cleaners, small practices, restaurants, businesses like yoga studios, law firms and barber shops scattered all throughout the neighborhoods that don't even show up on google right in what looks like what would be purely a residential only street. It is difficult to find a block without something. Of course then there are the big commercial strips of 24th street, Castro Street, Church Street, etc. etc. etc. We do not need people who don't live here creating a false narrative looking at google aerials.
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  #32  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 10:16 PM
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The area (Sunset) actually reminds me a lot of some residential spots around London; dense ugylish houses but accessible just about everything. There's also a MUNI light rail that runs right along Taraval. Noe Valley is even more 'urban' with more street level retail closer by and kinda reminds more of Brooklyn/ Queens with just a lot more wood.
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  #33  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Oh yeah it definitely gets a lot less severe near the central downtown areas where there's more retail but they're still commonly found even there.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7911...7i16384!8i8192

I just don't get how this happened, it's kinda bizarre. It's not like SF is a sunbelt city, and by US standards it's pre-war building stock is well preserved. Yet no other US city has this many street facing garages.
What are you talking about? Most US cities are full of detached homes with garages and driveways, with parking lots all over the place. Yes, there are garages on residential buildings in SF as well, especially in the less dense areas of the city. In that regard, SF is the same as almost everywhere else in the country that isn't NYC.

Also, according to various definitions, SF is definitely a sunbelt city.

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It's also strange to me how this usually gets completely ignored when people laud San Francisco for being an urban outlier. Like this entire street is literally just garages and driveways, it's terrible for pedestrians. And this goes on for blocks and blocks and blocks. Endless.

https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7488...7i13312!8i6656
Maybe people don't mention it, because it's not really a problem. That street is in one of the least dense parts of the city, that was entirely built out after the car was invented. Though it still has a population density in the 15,000-20,000 range, is within walking distance to multiple retail strips, schools, the ocean, and has good public transit access. Also, many of those garages have apartments behind them. I used to live in one of them, not far from there...am i supposed to be disappointed in that neighborhood or something? It's a pretty nice area.

You know what people do on streets like that? Walk a couple blocks to one of those retail strips where they buy things or hang out. Or maybe they do it at the park or beach instead, or maybe they hop on the bus or the train and go downtown. Or maybe they hang out right there in front of their house/apartment. Maybe they have a lil garage sale, maybe their kids are playing on the sidewalk/ in the street. Maybe they walk their dog and talk to their neighbor as they water their miniature front yard, and then stop at the corner store. Maybe they're jamming out with their bros in the garage and random pedestrians stop to listen and talk (used to happen at my building lol). You have this idea that the existence of garage doors on the bottom floor of buildings means that pedestrians throughout SF are suffering, but it's not really true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Curb cuts are the main reason SF doesn't have quite the same street-level quality as cities on its urban tier. Boston and Philly have proportionally far fewer curb cuts (as well as narrower streets) and it makes a big difference from the pedestrian perspective.

Granted, SF still has fantastic urbanity for U.S. standards, and easily the best urbanity west of the Mississippi (and plausibly the best urbanity outside the Northeast), but the proliferation of curb cuts is a negative.
This is subjective of course, but in my opinion SF's "street-level quality" is easily on par with Philly and Boston, regardless of curb cuts on residential streets. There's at least as much density of people and retail in SF as in those cities, it's not like things are dead due to garages.
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  #34  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 11:11 PM
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It should also be noted that in addition to being used as apartments, a lot of those garages on single family homes in SF are used like basements, and are filled with boxes of stuff and workbenches and whatnot, rather than cars. Some garages on older homes in SF are too small to even fit most cars.
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  #35  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2021, 11:27 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
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^ the mini-cooper craze never hit sf?
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  #36  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2021, 12:47 AM
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Most US cities are full of detached homes with garages and driveways
In cities that saw extensive use of service alleys bisecting not just commercial blocks, but also residential ones as well, street-facing garages, drive-ways, and curb cuts are actually quite rare on residential streets.

Chicago is probably the most thoroughly "alleyed" city in the nation (perhaps the world?), and while residential garages are quite common here, they are typically detached and open up to the alley in back of the property. This is a pattern found throughout damn near the entire city and even out into most of pre-war suburbia.

Service alleys are also great places to run power/telecom utilities and to do trash/recycling collection, giving streets an overall cleaner look by putting all of the unsightliness of garage doors, trash cans/dumpsters, and overhead power lines in back and out of sight.

SF obviously never embraced the idea of service alleys running through its residential blocks, so the kludge of retrofitting street-facing garages into the 1st floor/basement of existing houses became the norm there. It's not a huge deal, more of an aesthetic deficiency than anything else.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 22, 2021 at 1:41 AM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2021, 2:15 AM
austlar1 austlar1 is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I think the bigger detractor for SF is having fewer mixed use buildings versus the curb cuts. The curb cuts just seem to be a symptom of that, and the link to the streetview in Noe Valley above is a good example. It's a very densely built neighborhood, but there doesn't really seem like most people who live there are within a five minute walk of any amenities.
I posted the Noe Valley link and lived at that location for a number of years. We had two corner stores within a block or so, and 24th St. was just two blocks to the south. 24th St is the main commercial drag for Noe Valley and has (or had) most every kind of neighborhood amenity. Still, when I lived there, many of us had cars and used them quite a bit. We could park one vehicle in the little driveway area without blocking the sidewalk, but few people actually used the tiny garages to park cars. In the late 70s/early 80s, there was usually plenty of curbside parking available. Today parking is much more difficult, suggesting more people are living in the neighborhood, or more people have cars? PS- Just noticed that the old 24th Street Safeway is now a Whole Foods, but it still has a little parking lot. Some things only kinda/sorta change.
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  #38  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2021, 4:23 AM
homebucket homebucket is offline
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In the late 70s/early 80s, there was usually plenty of curbside parking available. Today parking is much more difficult, suggesting more people are living in the neighborhood, or more people have cars? PS- Just noticed that the old 24th Street Safeway is now a Whole Foods, but it still has a little parking lot. Some things only kinda/sorta change.
In 1970 there were 715,674 people living in SF, and in 1980, there were actually less, 678,974 people. Now there are 873,965, a difference of 194,991, or about 29% more people.
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  #39  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2021, 7:14 AM
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I think the bigger issue in NYC is that they take away street parking spaces. There are a few curb cuts for houses in my area. It doesn't really seem to affect the walking experience that much, but the space where the curb cut was created is no longer a public parking space.
They also take away cars needing those street parking spaces. Most curb cuts occupy the space where one car could park and are the entry into a garage where 2 or more cars can park.

If every car in residential neighborhoods had to park on the street it would be impossible. And it would be expensive for the owners because those cars would be fairly frequently vandalized or stolen as every San Franciscan knows.

As for pedestrians needing to be careful, that's the usual nonsense from Crawford. You don't have this issue downtown where sidewalks are crowded and I'm not aware of any pedestrians being mowed down on the sidewalk by somebody pulling into the garage of their single family home. When it comes to large multifamily buildings, yes--when cars are coming and going constantly from garages there is some care on the part of drivers and pedestrians required but still there are very few injuries.
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  #40  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2021, 7:19 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I think the bigger detractor for SF is having fewer mixed use buildings versus the curb cuts. The curb cuts just seem to be a symptom of that, and the link to the streetview in Noe Valley above is a good example. It's a very densely built neighborhood, but there doesn't really seem like most people who live there are within a five minute walk of any amenities.
San Francisco is a city of neighborhood shopping streets or "high" streets as they call them in the UK. Almost all residential neighborhoods have one. In Noe Valley 24th is the main one though with some shopping also on Castro. These neighborhoods are fairly small in area so just about every home has reasonable shopping within walking distance. Noe Valley has a walk score of 92* which should tell you this is NOT a problem act all.

*Officially a walk score of 92 means "Walker’s Paradise; Daily errands do not require a car"
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