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  #21  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 5:52 PM
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Metros turn over to midsized somewhere around 350k. A this point they become large enough to support both a growing city centre and other nodes. Higher-order transit starts making sense. Culturally interesting things start happening.
I'll be honest: I've never lived in a metro smaller than about 4M (Seattle is the smallest metro I've lived in).

I have no idea what living in a smaller city, like Bellingham or Portland (Maine) is like.
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  #22  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 6:33 PM
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I'll be honest: I've never lived in a metro smaller than about 4M (Seattle is the smallest metro I've lived in).

I have no idea what living in a smaller city, like Bellingham or Portland (Maine) is like.
Having lived/grown up in suburban Cincinnati and Phoenix, and attending college in Southern California, I never thought I'd like or prefer living in a smallish city, but I've been in Flagstaff for the past 12 or so years. It helps that larger metros are a few hours drive away (2.5 to Phoenix, 4 to Las Vegas and Albuquerque).

I think it also helps that Flagstaff is a college town, which opens it up to a more cosmopolitan and diverse demographic compared to, say, Winslow or Kingman (Prescott has Embry-Riddle), but being a college town comes with its own set of issues.
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  #23  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 6:56 PM
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Metros turn over to midsized somewhere around 350k. A this point they become large enough to support both a growing city centre and other nodes. Higher-order transit starts making sense. Culturally interesting things start happening.
at that range, things can vary quite a bit from my experiences.

Rockford, IL and Ann Arbor, MI are both in that 350K MSA zone, but because Ann Arbor is home to one of the largest and most prestigious public universities around, it is an entire level above Rockford in terms of vibrancy, cultural offerings, and general urban feel.

in smaller and medium size metros, the presence of a large university can really elevate one place above another in terms of urban feel, especially when the university is located in/adjacent to the core of the city.

when i'm strolling around the isthmus of Madison, WI, i definitely feel like i'm in a bigger metro area than a typical midwestern MSA of ~600K. i think that most people here would agree that Madison is an entire level above a place like Toledo, OH in terms of urban vibrancy and life, despite both being roughly the same size at the MSA level. the 45,000 college kids walking, biking, skate-boarding and generally crawling around all over the core without cars helps IMMENSELY with creating that bigger city feel. being a state capital, and all of the gravity that comes with that, certainly doesn't hurt either.
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  #24  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 7:07 PM
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at that range, things can vary quite a bit from my experiences.

Rockford, IL and Ann Arbor, MI are both in that 350K MSA zone, but because Ann Arbor is home to one of the largest and most prestigious public universities around, it is an entire level above Rockford in terms of vibrancy, cultural offerings, and general urban feel.

in smaller and medium size metros, the presence of a large university can really elevate one place above another in terms of urban feel, especially when the university is located in/adjacent to the core of the city.

when i'm strolling around the isthmus of Madison, WI, i definitely feel like i'm in a much bigger metro area than a typical midwestern MSA of ~600K. i think that most people here would agree that Madison is an entire level above a place like Toledo, OH in terms of urban vibrancy and life, despite both being roughly the same size at the MSA level. the 45,000 college kids walking, biking, skate-boarding and generally crawling around all over the core without cars helps IMMENSELY with creating that bigger city feel. being a state capital, and all of the gravity that comes with that, certainly doesn't hurt either.
Yeah, a place like Santa Fe or Monterey, CA (both ~100k) is a pretty small in population but certainly has tons of interesting things going on. Whereas a place like Ft. Myers/Cape Coral or Fresno (both ~500k) has a ton more people but...
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  #25  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 7:11 PM
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^ yes, high levels of tourism can also elevate a place a level or two.

New Orleans and Hartford are nearly identical in MSA population, but they are in different worlds when it comes to urban vibrancy.

ditto for Charleston, SC and Dayton, OH.
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  #26  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 7:37 PM
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^I think urban vibrancy in general can make a place feel larger to me as an American. I've been to podunk towns in Europe and South America that feel as big as some of our very urban second tier cities.
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  #27  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 7:55 PM
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^ yes, high levels of tourism can also elevate a place a level or two.

New Orleans and Hartford are nearly identical in MSA population, but they are in different worlds when it comes to urban vibrancy.

ditto for Charleston, SC and Dayton, OH.
But do the tourists go there because of its urban vibrancy, or vice versa?
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  #28  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 7:56 PM
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But do the tourists go there because of its urban vibrancy, or vice versa?
the chicken or the egg?
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  #29  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 12:24 AM
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the chicken or the egg?
Sort of obvious with New Orleans - French Quarter, drinking and food!
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  #30  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 12:37 AM
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Another interesting question - are metros like Cleveland and Pittsburgh now considered medium in 2020 whereas they might have been considered large in 1970? Would the opposite be true for metros like DFW and Houston, when comparing 1970 vs 2020 standing? And Austin is now medium versus small then - hard to believe it is now as big as Pittsburgh and bigger than Cleveland (probably bigger than even Pittsburgh as of today):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tistical_areas
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  #31  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 2:59 AM
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Another interesting question - are metros like Cleveland and Pittsburgh now considered medium in 2020 whereas they might have been considered large in 1970? Would the opposite be true for metros like DFW and Houston, when comparing 1970 vs 2020 standing? And Austin is now medium versus small then - hard to believe it is now as big as Pittsburgh and bigger than Cleveland (probably bigger than even Pittsburgh as of today):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tistical_areas
In population (PGH/CLE) they might now be considered medium, but in cultural offerings, and hospital systems (Cleveland Clinic, UPMC) they both punch way above their weight compared to the Charlotte, Austin, Nashvilles of America that have been rapidly growing the past 20-25 years.

Cleveland (city) was once between 900-915k people (1930-1950), 5th largest city in 1920. How mighty it once was!
Pittsburgh (city) was once almost 700k (1930-1950), 8th largest city in 1910
They both grew when America still knew how to create cities. Pittsburgh still has most of that intact, or at least feels like it. Cleveland demo'd a lot of its legacy (i.e. grand mansions on Euclid Ave, levelled buildings for large surface parking lots downtown).

Pittsburgh has a bigger feel than Cleveland, and still has a bigger city feel than Austin imho.
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  #32  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Another interesting question - are metros like Cleveland and Pittsburgh now considered medium in 2020 whereas they might have been considered large in 1970? Would the opposite be true for metros like DFW and Houston, when comparing 1970 vs 2020 standing? And Austin is now medium versus small then - hard to believe it is now as big as Pittsburgh and bigger than Cleveland (probably bigger than even Pittsburgh as of today):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tistical_areas
I think so. Pittsburgh, Austin, Charlotte, etc., all feel like cities in the same league now, IMO.
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  #33  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 5:37 PM
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Most European urban areas of 1 million seem larger than most North American urban areas of 2 million
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  #34  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
Another interesting question - are metros like Cleveland and Pittsburgh now considered medium in 2020 whereas they might have been considered large in 1970? Would the opposite be true for metros like DFW and Houston, when comparing 1970 vs 2020 standing? And Austin is now medium versus small then - hard to believe it is now as big as Pittsburgh and bigger than Cleveland (probably bigger than even Pittsburgh as of today):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tistical_areas
as someone from the same tier of city i would say unequivocally yes. to me an american metro doesn't feel “large” until around 4m, but it also depends.
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  #35  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 5:50 PM
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Another interesting question - are metros like Cleveland and Pittsburgh now considered medium in 2020 whereas they might have been considered large in 1970? Would the opposite be true for metros like DFW and Houston, when comparing 1970 vs 2020 standing?
yeah, over the past 100 years, there's certainly been a pretty big role reversal in the urban fortunes between the rustbelt and sunbelt.

in 1920, 7 of the the nation's 13 largest cities were classic rustbelters:

1. New York: 5,620,048
2. Chicago: 2,701,705
3. Philadelphia: 1,823,779
4. Detroit: 993,078
5. Cleveland: 796,841
6. St. Louis: 772,897

7. Boston: 748,060
8. Baltimore: 733,826
9. Pittsburgh: 588,343
10. Los Angeles: 576,673
11. Buffalo: 506,775
12. San Francisco: 506,676
13. Milwaukee: 457,147


today, other than chicago, none of the other 6 are even in the top 25 anymore for city proper. and by MSA, only detroit (#14) and st. louis (#21) make the top 25 MSAs.

meanwhile, down in the sunbelt, unrelenting growth.
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  #36  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 5:50 PM
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^ the Bears franchise actually began life in 1920 as the Decatur Staleys. They moved up to Chicago a year later in 1921, and then renamed themselves da Bears in 1922, taking a cue from the MLB cubs, as both teams played at wrigley field at the time.
the dayton triangles defeat columbus in dayton.

and the nfl is born.

you're welcome football fans.

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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 5:55 PM
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at that range, things can vary quite a bit from my experiences.

Rockford, IL and Ann Arbor, MI are both in that 350K MSA zone, but because Ann Arbor is home to one of the largest and most prestigious public universities around, it is an entire level above Rockford in terms of vibrancy, cultural offerings, and general urban feel.

in smaller and medium size metros, the presence of a large university can really elevate one place above another in terms of urban feel, especially when the university is located in/adjacent to the core of the city.

when i'm strolling around the isthmus of Madison, WI, i definitely feel like i'm in a bigger metro area than a typical midwestern MSA of ~600K. i think that most people here would agree that Madison is an entire level above a place like Toledo, OH in terms of urban vibrancy and life, despite both being roughly the same size at the MSA level. the 45,000 college kids walking, biking, skate-boarding and generally crawling around all over the core without cars helps IMMENSELY with creating that bigger city feel. being a state capital, and all of the gravity that comes with that, certainly doesn't hurt either.
I was thinking about Madison as a case study. That's a terrific city; totally unexpected for its population and location.

I've never been to Toledo. Just did a quick google maps tour and, uh, it doesn't look great. I was prepared to say it must have something going on that, say, Fargo doesn't, but I don't know if I could. I think I'm starting to get why some people are ready to discount cities under a million as cities at all.

Anyway, I also thought about New Orleans as a case study. They have the feel and cultural accomplishments of larger metros while not being anywhere close to large. I was thinking about the distorting effect of tourism, but I think it's something else: New Orleans became a big metro earlier, when cities were smaller--back in the Tennessee Williams, everywhere-else-is-Cleveland days. It hasn't grown since, but it's not like it rolled back over that milestone. Small as it is, it's the capital city for a unique culture that's contained in that metro. It's something like Ancient Athens. They only had 300k people. Renaissance Venice topped out at 175k. But that was big enough, in their times, to be big.

I thought about Victoria, BC as another case study. They also have a distorting effect from tourism--their downtown has pretty much always been surprisingly dense and vibrant. But over the last ten or so years they've basically doubled the size of their downtown with new residential construction. I associate this with their becoming a midsized city. It's something you'd never see in slightly smaller Canadian cities like Regina or Thunderbay, or even in nice smaller cities like Kingston or St. John's. And it wasn't happening in Victoria either until they tipped over some mysterious threshold into midsizeness.
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  #38  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 6:01 PM
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Mid-sized I would say is right around 1 million metro, 700k-2 milion

once you are over 2 million metro you have become a major metro in the USA at lease,

Anything below the high 100's is a small metro or just a town.
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  #39  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 6:17 PM
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I was thinking about Madison as a case study. That's a terrific city; totally unexpected for its population and location.

I've never been to Toledo. Just did a quick google maps tour and, uh, it doesn't look great. I was prepared to say it must have something going on that, say, Fargo doesn't, but I don't know if I could. I think I'm starting to get why some people are ready to discount cities under a million as cities at all.

i went to school near toledo, worked there and even lived there one spring long ago.

toledo has jeep and owens corning. downtown looks beat, but don't sleep on it altogether, the city has plenty of charms too. the best small art museum and city zoo. inverness golf course is top shelf. the old west end is one of america's best historic neighborhoods. they used to have a greektown and huge parties by the river, but i think those are long gone. heading downriver on the maumee is very pleasant and great fishing in the region. oh and the mudhens aka the best minor league team -- and tony packos.

and katie holmes -- tom cruise knew wassup with toledo lol.

that's all i got!



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  #40  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2021, 6:23 PM
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I was thinking about Madison as a case study. That's a terrific city; totally unexpected for its population and location.

I've never been to Toledo. Just did a quick google maps tour and, uh, it doesn't look great. I was prepared to say it must have something going on that, say, Fargo doesn't, but I don't know if I could. I think I'm starting to get why some people are ready to discount cities under a million as cities at all.
I never spent any considerable amount of time in Toledo, but I do know it has a very well regarded art museum and zoo. The art museum, in particular, gets lots of praise, and they have a very impressive glass pavilion, as Toledo is known as 'the glass city' due to its role in producing windows and windshields for the auto industry.

Their Old West End neighborhood is pretty, and has some gorgeous old homes:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6612...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6625...7i16384!8i8192

The museum, zoo, old wealthy neighborhoods, relatively big downtown...these are all legacies of when Toledo was much more prosperous and growing. Its fate is very much tied to Detroit and the auto industry, but it lacks the size, wealth, and coolness factor of Detroit. It's a pretty stagnant city/region, but even still, I imagine it still has quite a bit that a place like Fargo does not.
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