Lamenting the decline of the car

[Architype]

Teslas are pretty common in downtown Vancouver.

I'd been wondering about this, as most residents in condos or rentals do not have charging facilities. However, it seems like the city has already done something about it (article from 2018).

Starting in January, all parking stalls for residents at new condo developments in Vancouver will have to have the capability to charge electric vehicles.
Council agreed to bump up the requirement from 20 per cent to 100 per cent at Wednesday's meeting.
"At the moment, with only 20 per cent of stalls being equipped with EV infrastructure, there is no guarantee of access," said Ian Neville, a climate policy analyst with the city.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...uver-1.4576927

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Are you allowed to deface your own license plate? Asking for a friend.

It's not your plate, it belongs to the Crown. Defacing it is an offence in Ontario under the HTA. There may, however, soon be a business opportunity in plate frames that cover the motto on the bottom of the plate ....

[WarrenC12]

BC Hydro has been very supportive deploying high speed charging as well, often free. Most older stratas are going through the process of deploying some shared charging for residents (for some kind of fee).

But when I head out to the valley, I see very few Teslas or EVs. There are a ton in Vancouver (of all makes and models).

[harls]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I'd be very curious to know how much higher the EV take rate in BC is than other parts of Canada thanks to high gas prices. I see al kinds of EVs daily, despite the fact BC's rebates weren't as generous as ON's and only go up to vehicles costing $77k (ie no Model S).

I don't think Ontario's rebates even reach the Chrysler Pacifica's price point ($54 k?). Kind of shitty since it's manufactured in Windsor.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by harls

I don't think Ontario's rebates even reach the Chrysler Pacifica's price point ($54 k?). Kind of shitty since it's manufactured in Windsor.

Under Wynne, it was up to $14k BC is $5k, plus another $6k if you scrap an ICE car in favour of an EV.

[ssiguy]

The typical EV car is battery run based upon charging it at home and hybrid is just another {although good one} towards reducing gas use and bringing down emissions. Both are good steps but they are also just temporary ones.

Increasingly it is clear that the decision by transportation coporporations of all types have jointly acknowledged that hydrogen is the ONLY viable, marketable, and long-term option. Standard batteries, even when increasingly improved, will still require charging times and have distance limitations. They are also completely non-optional for any of the BILLIONS of people who live in rental/condo buildings. Hybrids are a good stepping stone but still require oil and hence are GHG emmitters.

Hydrogen offers the best of both world's.............electric zero emissions vehicles but with the convinience of oil. This is why hydrogen rail has begun to take off in a huge way...........it offers electrified service to lines which currently use diesel but an entire train can be completely refuelled in about 7 minutes. Cars filling up on hydrogen is the same amount of time for currently filling your tank. Battery rechargers at current gas stations are too slow and more importantly require completely new and expensive infrastructure and hydrogen doesn't.


Hydrogen simply requires a retrofit of current gas pumps while rechargers require the millions of gas stations around the world to completely gut their current infrastructure and start again. The amount of restructuring our current transportation infrastructure for hydrogen is miniscule compared to changing it to electric. Hydrogen is much cheaper to make the transformation over to, offers transportation with no restrictions in time or distance, and is viable for the people who don't have access to plug-ins at their homes which is the overwhelming majority of people on the planet. It is also very viable for trains, planes, and long-range transport. Hydrogen offers the convenience of oil without the emissions.

[Doug]

Hydrogen overcomes the energy density deficiencies of the chemical batteries in current EV technology. Hydrogen powered vehicles are still way off as hydrogen cannot be safely stored (a punctured tank will explode), or efficiently produced. The cost cost effective method to produce hydrogen is to strip it off natural gas sourced methane. Converting water to hydrogen and oxygen is extremely inefficient and requires enormous amounts of electricity. Gasoline and diesel powered transportation will dominate the foreseeable future.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Feels like i'm seeing more and more Teslas every day here in Ottawa.

If you are a suburban homeowner and are due to replace your car, I don't know why you wouldn't consider an EV. Particularly a Tesla if you can afford it. Especially in Ottawa, where driving commutes aren't really long distance and many employers (tech sector and government) offer charging at work.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If you are a suburban homeowner and are due to replace your car, I don't know why you wouldn't consider an EV. Particularly a Tesla if you can afford it. Especially in Ottawa, where driving commutes aren't really long distance and many employers (tech sector and government) offer charging at work.

Cost would be the main one. Even if you have the money paying a 100% premium over a similar gas car is a pretty significant deterrent.

[ssiguy]

The future, and yes there are some hurdles to overcome, is hydrogen. It is not only the best option, it is the ONLY option. EV plug-ins are completely unaccessiblee for the vast majority of the planet and never will be. I live in a 7 year old condo and I can't buy one even if I wanted to as I would have no where to charge it..........now multiply that by 6 billion who are in the same situation.

[harls]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It's not your plate, it belongs to the Crown. Defacing it is an offence in Ontario under the HTA. There may, however, soon be a business opportunity in plate frames that cover the motto on the bottom of the plate ....

What are you guys going to do about the "three guys in a hot tub" debacle, brought up by the Blue Oval?

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It's not your plate, it belongs to the Crown. Defacing it is an offence in Ontario under the HTA. There may, however, soon be a business opportunity in plate frames that cover the motto on the bottom of the plate ....

Actually, many of them do already, so I'll probably just go that route. I'm definitely not "open for business" when it comes to the charlatan currently occupying Queen's Park.



Please God, no...unless you mean "away." Then yes, please do go away.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Doug

Hydrogen overcomes the energy density deficiencies of the chemical batteries in current EV technology. Hydrogen powered vehicles are still way off as hydrogen cannot be safely stored (a punctured tank will explode), or efficiently produced. The cost cost effective method to produce hydrogen is to strip it off natural gas sourced methane. Converting water to hydrogen and oxygen is extremely inefficient and requires enormous amounts of electricity. Gasoline and diesel powered transportation will dominate the foreseeable future.

For how long? I live in Northern Ontario and am seeing quite a few electric and many hybrid vehicles on the road here. I have family and friends who have them and they love them. Yes gasoline will be around for awhile but the demand for it is dropping.

[ssiguy]

Some people who say hydrogen is not an option due to lack of fueling stations should learn from history.

When cars originally came out 120 years ago the first ones were battery and it looked like that would be the only option. Even when the internal combustion engine was introduced, the belief was that battery cars would still be the norm and why most thought international combustion was just a fun one-off. Why?............because even if you got a gas car, where would you drive it? There was no where to get the gas.

Of course when there is a buck to be made, and especially when getting demands from governments, corporations will greedily step up to the plate. Where there are only a handful of hydrogen feuling stations in Canada now, there will be scores in 3 years, hundreds in 5 years and thousands by 2030. By 2040 gas pumps will be regulated to what diesel pumps are now, a small demand and one pump per station for the older cars still running on gas.

Oil, for transportation, is quickly on it's way out. In a few years when countries have many hydrogen fueling stations to make them viable for everyday living, the trickle of hydrogen vehicles will become a torrent {Germany has opened 68 fueling stations in the last 2 years} and oil's transportation use will fall off a cliff in a shockingly short amount of time.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The typical EV car is battery run based upon charging it at home and hybrid is just another {although good one} towards reducing gas use and bringing down emissions. Both are good steps but they are also just temporary ones.

Increasingly it is clear that the decision by transportation coporporations of all types have jointly acknowledged that hydrogen is the ONLY viable, marketable, and long-term option. Standard batteries, even when increasingly improved, will still require charging times and have distance limitations. They are also completely non-optional for any of the BILLIONS of people who live in rental/condo buildings. Hybrids are a good stepping stone but still require oil and hence are GHG emmitters.

Hydrogen offers the best of both world's.............electric zero emissions vehicles but with the convinience of oil. This is why hydrogen rail has begun to take off in a huge way...........it offers electrified service to lines which currently use diesel but an entire train can be completely refuelled in about 7 minutes. Cars filling up on hydrogen is the same amount of time for currently filling your tank. Battery rechargers at current gas stations are too slow and more importantly require completely new and expensive infrastructure and hydrogen doesn't.


Hydrogen simply requires a retrofit of current gas pumps while rechargers require the millions of gas stations around the world to completely gut their current infrastructure and start again. The amount of restructuring our current transportation infrastructure for hydrogen is miniscule compared to changing it to electric. Hydrogen is much cheaper to make the transformation over to, offers transportation with no restrictions in time or distance, and is viable for the people who don't have access to plug-ins at their homes which is the overwhelming majority of people on the planet. It is also very viable for trains, planes, and long-range transport. Hydrogen offers the convenience of oil without the emissions.

Considering the world's largest auto market (China) is going battery electric in a big way, I have much higher confidence that the technological hurdles of batteries can be overcome. Not to mention that when electric cars take off, installation of car chargers in apartment complex parking areas and other public areas will follow, as it has in Shanghai (there are about 20 chargers available in my apartment complex alone).

Hydrogen will always be less energy efficient than batteries because you have to use electricity to obtain it, and then more energy to compress it to a high enough pressure for use, whereas batteries do not require these intermediate steps. There are also the safety issues related to carrying high pressure gas in every vehicle on the road (hydrogen cars need to have hydrogen pressurized to over 3000psi) as well as the explosive nature of hydrogen.

[milomilo]

The easiest way to store hydrogen is to attach it to a short chain of carbon molecules - converting it to a convenient liquid product, commonly known as gasoline. That has the added advantage of a widespread distribution network and can fuel our existing vehicles with no modifications. In fact, they will run even better on the synthetic fuel.

If it is actually true that carbon capture can be done cheaply, for a few hundred dollars per ton, then ISTM that solving climate change is incredibly easy:

1. Set a carbon tax high enough for carbon capture to be feasible
2. Build a crap ton of renewable energy
3. Adjacent to the renewable energy, build carbon capture plants
4. Convert CO2 to fuel when the wind is blowing, sun is shining, countries get their asses in gear and build nuclear etc
5. Sell your clean burning, carbon neutral fuel (and natural gas, propane, whatever) to anyone who needs it - airlines, motorists, shippers etc
6. Shut down the oilsands, stop fracking, destroy Saudi Arabia, Russia and all the other shitty petro-states. All the good stuff.
7. Award milomilo the nobel prize for solving climate change

[lio45]

Your #6 Step would read "... devastate Saudi Arabia, Alberta, Russia ..." though

(Not the end of the world, IMO. Worst case you'd be like Saskatchewan, which is still a decent place to live with their 1M people.)

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

Considering the world's largest auto market (China) is going battery electric in a big way, I have much higher confidence that the technological hurdles of batteries can be overcome. Not to mention that when electric cars take off, installation of car chargers in apartment complex parking areas and other public areas will follow, as it has in Shanghai (there are about 20 chargers available in my apartment complex alone).

Hydrogen will always be less energy efficient than batteries because you have to use electricity to obtain it, and then more energy to compress it to a high enough pressure for use, whereas batteries do not require these intermediate steps. There are also the safety issues related to carrying high pressure gas in every vehicle on the road (hydrogen cars need to have hydrogen pressurized to over 3000psi) as well as the explosive nature of hydrogen.

You are thinking like a Canadian and not taking into account the true realities oh how 90% of this planet live their lives. This idea of a nice suburban house to plug in your car is simply a new-world Western reality.

Relatively very people live in a SFH, even in Europe or Japan. As far as putting plug-ins in parking garages that is impossible for all but a very few. As I stated I live in a 7 year old modern Western condo and we don't have plug-ins and to put them in would mean everyone gets it with a substantial repair bill on their condo fees...…….no thanks.

Hydrogen is the ONLY option and will be the fuel that powers our cars for the next 100 years. It is the ONLY option that allows us to have what we have been accustomed to and expect from out vehicles...……..the ability to drive where ever and when ever we want and being able to gas up in 3 minutes.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Some people who say hydrogen is not an option due to lack of fueling stations should learn from history.

When cars originally came out 120 years ago the first ones were battery and it looked like that would be the only option. Even when the internal combustion engine was introduced, the belief was that battery cars would still be the norm and why most thought international combustion was just a fun one-off. Why?............because even if you got a gas car, where would you drive it? There was no where to get the gas.

Of course when there is a buck to be made, and especially when getting demands from governments, corporations will greedily step up to the plate. Where there are only a handful of hydrogen feuling stations in Canada now, there will be scores in 3 years, hundreds in 5 years and thousands by 2030. By 2040 gas pumps will be regulated to what diesel pumps are now, a small demand and one pump per station for the older cars still running on gas.

Oil, for transportation, is quickly on it's way out. In a few years when countries have many hydrogen fueling stations to make them viable for everyday living, the trickle of hydrogen vehicles will become a torrent {Germany has opened 68 fueling stations in the last 2 years} and oil's transportation use will fall off a cliff in a shockingly short amount of time.

What is th mechanism you are proposing for that to happen? Hydrogen is not more efficient to produce than gasoline and not as efficient to distribute electricity for an electric car.

[ssiguy]

It is very true that, at least for the time being, hydrogen is not nearly as efficient as standard batteries. The difference however is not as much as what is proclaimed. This is primarily due to the incredible weight of the batteries. Did you know that a whopping 30% of the weight of a Tesla is exclusively due to it's batteries? NYC is considering banning all Tesla SUVs over the Brooklynn Bridge because they exceed the maximum weight allowed on the already old bridge.........3 tons. Standard batteries are more efficient but conversely have to use a lot of that efficiency by hauling around much heavier vehicles.

The transformation over to hydrogen infrastructure is going to be very expensive, there is no argument there. The reality however is that the only espoused alternative is NOT optional. Standard batteries can NEVER, EVER work because they are inaccessible to at least 80% of this planet's population. Telling everyone to have a plug-in is akin to telling everyone to put in solar panels on their roof............optional for SFH in the NA/Australia and some of Europe, farcical for everyone else.