I keep hearing "Toronto is coming close to Chicago" but I dont see it

[metalpressed]

Originally Posted by niwell

Even Milwaukee Ave has lots of gaps, vacant storefronts and suburban looking strip malls not that far from the core. While I love that part of the city, it's not as consistently vibrant as Queen or even Bloor.

As others have mentioned though, Chicago isn't quite as similar to Toronto as it sometimes gets portrayed. The layout and vernacular of both cities are quite different, and each has its pros and cons.

Edit: was reading quickly and misread Michigan for Milwaukee. These don't apply to Michigan, which is gorgeous!

Are you kidding me? Bloor is a main shopping thoroughfare. It compares to Michigan avenue, which you know it pales in comparison to.

Toronto is an ugly city, btw.

[metalpressed]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Of course if you stack ranked the towers based on tallest Chicago would come out ahead but aesthetically speaking it is totally a toss up between the two cities based on personal preferences. I'm not really sure what the point or the goal of starting such a thread is.

There are definitely angles where I would prefer the Toronto skyline over the Chicago one. It isn't a zero sum game people.

Again, simply - no. Chicago has an architectural heritage that by far surpasses Toronto, and it's given the world the Chicago school. Toronto has nothing to compare.

[isaidso]

Chicago is ahead of Toronto architecturally but architecture is one of the few areas where Chicago still has a lead. In most areas, Toronto vaulted ahead awhile ago. In 20+ years few will be comparing these 2 cities. Toronto will be miles ahead by then. I like Chicago but it will be near impossible for Chicago to keep up. Toronto is the fastest growing city in the Western world.

Toronto doesn't have the inventory of pre-War high-rises of Chicago but Toronto will surely reel Chicago in on the overall (old and new) architecture front. Heritage skyscrapers aren't enough to keep one ahead forever. If it were, Cleveland, St.Louis, and Buffalo would be ahead of cities like Beijing, Kuala Lumpur, and Vancouver ..... but they're not. One has to continually add new buildings to stay ahead.

In global city rankings Toronto is ahead of Chicago. By the 2021 or 2022 study, Toronto will likely usurp LA too. NYC will be the only US city ahead of it: https://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/world2020t.html

[jdcamb]

In Chicago they serve duck sauce in those little packs. In Toronto they serve it in a tiny bowl. If you ask for spicy mustard they also serve that in a tiny bowl. Soy sauce comes in a bottle. The only thing they serve in a plastic pouch in Toronto is milk.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by metalpressed

Are you kidding me? Bloor is a main shopping thoroughfare. It compares to Michigan avenue, which you know it pales in comparison to.

Toronto is an ugly city, btw.

A few snaps I took of this 'ugly' city on the weekend.

_DSC0237 by harley613, on Flickr

20210530_201724 by harley613, on Flickr

20210530_143847~2 by harley613, on Flickr

Photo_6554129_DJI_529_pano_12018985_0_2021530194134_photo_pano by harley613, on Flickr

[C.]

Toronto is really getting big.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by C.

Toronto is really getting big.

As much as some scoffed at the Toronto - Chicago comparisons 5-8 years ago, I sense it we'll see 'Round 2' when comparisons to LA surface in 15-20 years.

COVID has disrupted immigration flows to Toronto but the trend line suggested Greater Toronto - Hamilton would be in the 11-12 million range by 2040. The trend line for the Los Angeles MSA suggested population decline. If 2017-2019 repeats 2019-2041 (decrease of 63,201 every 2 years), LA would end up with a population of 12,551,189 in 2040. It wouldn't be all that much bigger. Los Angeles MSA might even find itself smaller than Greater Toronto - Hamilton 10 years later in 2050. A lot can happen in 30 years, of course.


Los Angeles MSA

2017: 13,278,000
2018: 13,249,879
2019: 13,214,799
2040: 12,551,189

https://www.census.gov/data/tables/t...al-areas.html#

[eltodesukane]

But don't be too much like Chicago.

Toronto has recorded 69 homicides in 2020.
https://toronto.citynews.ca/2020/01/...homicides-map/

800 victims were killed in Chicago in the past 12 months.
https://graphics.suntimes.com/homicides/

[metalpressed]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Thank you. People often read what they want to read rather than what is written.



For Americans in particular Chicago is a global city and it has most of the qualities of one: big airport, lots of multi-nationals, 9.5 million people, big economy, etc. That said, for many people (especially beyond North America) Chicago has already dropped off their radar. It's sad but increasingly true.

When they see the US they see New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Miami, and Washington first. I agree that Chicago is transitioning into a big powerful US city from a global one but I doubt Chicago has come to terms with that yet. Population and economy are important; Chicago is still #3 in the US. But it can't carry a city alone. Osaka is another case in point. It's big and powerful but more of a national entity than international in scope.

Yea, no. Chicago has a higher metropolitan GDP, more cultural relevance, and more international tourists for a reason. Stay mad that no one cares about Toronto.

[metalpressed]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Your assertion is off base imo. Perhaps fleshing out the issue a little more would be helpful. Chicago has 10 million people, economic heft, grand architecture, a huge airport, and a skyline to match. It was enough to make Chicago part of the conversation. Despite all these attributes Chicago has never been a big international city like London, Hong Kong, New York, Paris, or Tokyo. Chicago is unusual in that it's big and powerful but not on the global radar like the other cities it's grouped with.

If one digs deeper one really has to question how long Chicago can maintain its global standing. Like you said, Chicago's population isn't all that international, the overall population is flat lining, and immigrants don't seem interested either. It may bruise some egos in Illinois but Toronto has a higher profile around the world and the gap is widening. Toronto has long been a global magnet for immigrants and the city's international profile is rising. Being the largest city in a G7 nation has its perks.

Grouping Toronto and Chicago together makes sense on many levels but likely won't make sense 15-20 years from now. Size matters but it can only carry you so far. At this point size and heft seem to be the only significant attributes working in Chicago's favour. They used to be the US' 2nd city; then LA dropped it to 3rd. Chicago could conceivably fall to 6th within a generation.

I am honestly laughing at your constant assertions that anyone outside of Canada really thinks of Toronto. Toronto is extremely irrelevant. It's profile is BY FAR lower than Chicago's in the minds of Europeans, Asians, South Americans...by far.

[metalpressed]

Originally Posted by The North One

This thread is funny to me. I mean I've heard about Toronto arrogance from Canadians but actually reading it here. Yikes.

Toronto is not really on a world standing that you think it is (who the hell considers Toronto miles ahead of Guangzhou? Is Seoul also behind Toronto?). And while Chicago has it's problems it is a very well established mega-city with a long history and plenty of colossal cultural contributions and influence. Toronto looks like a makeshift town by comparison (hyperbole but you get the idea). Toronto still struggles to compete with Detroit in cultural relevancy and contributions (you can completely forget about architecture and history, Toronto is probably on the same level as Columbus OH in that regard).

Toronto only seems more international because of it's immigrants which Canada heavily steers into the city. The US is not so accommodating to immigrants for obvious reasons but that's no fault of Chicago and Chicago does not have the unique position of being at the drivers seat of an entire nation that allows it to disproportionately suck up resources. Had it not been for Quebec's separatism movement would Toronto even be anything? Probably not. Not to be harsh but for all the hubris there really isn't much special about Toronto.

So while Toronto will likely and eventually surpass Chicagoland in population and size of economy it wont be anywhere close to it in all other aspects. Toronto is the more traditionally urban Dallas Texas of the North American Great Lakes and that's just the most honest and truthful comparison.

This is spot on. And it's telling that no one wanted to respond to you.

But the US is way more accommodating of immigrants than Canada and always has been. That's how it's population reached 332 million.

Toronto also won't surpass Chicago in size of economy anytime soon. Look at a ranked list of metropolitan area GDP's worldwide. Toronto is way down there.

[thewave46]

I never really understood internet pissing matches.

Chicago's a great city, and yes, has a much longer and deeper history. This follows it being one of the major nodes of development in the history of a superpower. It also has its problems too, but I don't really feel the need to rehash those.

Toronto's a decent city too. It's not Chicago in its history for better or worse. Toronto's too new, too modern and too bland a history to really compare. It actually weirdly reflects Anglo-Canada in that sense. The highs are less high, but the lows are less low.

Montreal and Chicago might have a decent shot at being comparable, but then again it's hard to compare the development of cities in isolation outside of the country they represent. Chicago's story will always be part of the development of a superpower, something Canada will probably never be.

If Toronto has a flaw, it's definitely that some think it's bigger than its britches. As much as it's a decent city, it's only really important within the context of Canada. Which - as much as it pains me to admit this - doesn't really count for shit on a global scale. Nobody in London cares about Toronto or Canada particularly. Nor Tokyo, or Los Angeles, or Beijing.

So, even if Toronto passes whatever numeric metric, it'll always be smaller than the numbers say, just by being part of Canada.

Which - again - doesn't make it a bad city. Ultimately, accepting what it is may be key to its greatness. Greatness doesn't come from trying to ape someone else, but doing one's own thing. C'est la vie.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by metalpressed

This is spot on. And it's telling that no one wanted to respond to you.

He's not though. Some people's perceptions are stuck in the decade in which they formed them and nothing will ever trigger a re-evalutaion. Sometimes it's best to let people think what they think.