Would you invest in Detroit?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by edale

I'm not from Pittsburgh, nor have I ever lived there. The North One tried to deflect from any perceived criticism of Detroit by throwing Pittsburgh into the mix, I guess because he thought I am from there? But since he brought up PGH, I thought ok, let's go with this. In my opinion, the city is far more functional than Detroit. At a metro level, it gets a little trickier to compare, as metro Detroit is in another league than PGH. It's a much larger city and metro area.

Got it. Yeah... Taken as a whole Pittsburgh definitely looks better than Detroit, especially after the demolition spree that Detroit has been on for the past decade, but I don't know if I would play the tit-for-tat game on either side.

[The North One]

This whole thread was started as troll bait.

You don't have special insight because you watched some bullshit on PBS, you don't know what's spilling outside of the core or level of investment going on now, you dont know how it compares to disinvestment that occurred in other US cities, the neighborhoods in the city do not live and die by what you feel. And that's it.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by edale

Pittsburgh has absolutely nothing resembling the abandonment Detroit has.

Pittsburgh went on a demolition frenzy, arguably just as proportional to Detroit.

It has a top tier university (CMU) and a highly regarded large public university (Pitt) in its municipal boundaries.

Detroit has numerous universities and UofM in it's back pocket with a possible UM research campus coming developed by Ross.

It has numerous highly successful and vibrant neighborhoods outside of its core. Does Detroit have any neighborhood business districts that can even come close to places like this:

Oh outside the core? Detroit too, yep.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3179...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3680...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3231...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3550...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3961...7i16384!8i8192

This whole core exclusion game is bullshit anyway, Detroit's core is massive and obviously contains it's best urbanism and it's most rapidly developing areas with good urban developments. What's considered core in a large city like Detroit would be considered an outer core area in Pittsburgh. It's just a constant goal post change for people on here to play the google map pic game with the intention of shitting on Detroit's urban offerings.

Demographically, Pittsburgh continues to lose population as a city and a region, but I think it's far healthier and less reliant on a single industry than Detroit.

LOL when will this "OMG oNe InDUStry!" meme die out? It's obviously false and the ship already sailed, metro Detroit is not nearly as dependent on the big three. Even so, the auto industry is highly relevant and still holds some of the largest companies on earth. They're investing heavily in research and leading self-driving electric vehicle technology and even the companies in competition need a presence in the region, why do you think startups like Rivian moved to the area?

It also doesn't have nearly as much racial toxicity or the suburban/urban bullshit that Detroit has. Not sure that's an argument you want to make...

This is impossible to quantify so it's pointless to talk about. Just more you talking out your a** and concern trolling.

Obviously I regret bringing up Pitt, but I wasn't about to take shit from somebody I thought was from western PA.

[PhillyRising]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Hold it back in what way? The only issue I see with them not having commuter rail is that it hurts its overall "urban" scale.

Dallas has really low numbers of people who commute by rail(and only 1(is it 2 now?) actual commuter rail lines) yet it's number 2 in the nation for job growth.

So it hasn't hurt them one bit.

That will only last as long as the State of Texas bribes companies to relocate...but at some point that will no longer be able to happen.

I bet people in Dallas spend half their day in their cars. No thanks.

[edale]

Originally Posted by The North One

This whole thread was started as troll bait.

You don't have special insight because you watched some bullshit on PBS, you don't know what's spilling outside of the core or level of investment going on now, you dont know how it compares to disinvestment that occurred in other US cities, the neighborhoods in the city do not live and die by what you feel. And that's it.

It's not even worth it to respond to you, as you seem like a hopelessly insecure homer. I don't need to go through each of your examples to show how ridiculously cherry picked they are (and even then, don't show anything remotely comparable to the urban commercial offerings of a much smaller city- Pittsburgh). I don't need to cite the numbers of vacant and abandoned buildings in the city, or the foreclosure numbers, or post shots of decimated commercial corridors. Again, I really like Detroit and take no pleasure in its troubles. But I am realistic and objective. Detroit's troubles are unique in their scale and prevalence, and there really isn't much to argue about there. I'm not blaming the city for getting the way it is, and I'm certainly not blaming the residents. But let's be real about it.

FYI I was the one who called the OP out for the bullshit trolling that started this thread. My post was deleted of course, but I called Sunbelt out point by point on his BS list of 'reasons' he was considering investing in Detroit. I did so both in posts on this thread and PM. It's not fair or fun to kick a place while it's down, and I certainly did not intend to do that here.

Detroit is a place I visited a lot as a kid and it's a place I still really care about, despite what you or other homers might think. The more I learn about the city and its history, though, the more I realize just how daunting the task of revitalizing Detroit is. As a planner, it's hard to admit that I don't know the answer or have a strategy in mind that could work to bring the place back. But when you're not only fighting against physical blight, but also decades of racial injustice, the collapse of domestic blue collar industry, predatory banking and lending....it's pretty damn hard to be super optimistic. I have friends who work in Detroit in planning and other related fields, and I love to hear about the good work they're doing. Again, I wish nothing but the best for Detroit and the other cities dealing with similar issues.

[The North One]

Oh, MY examples are cherry picked?



You're obviously hopeless as well and a waste of time. Now go crawl in a hole/kick rocks, whatever I don't care. You ignored really everything I said about the investments/jobs, context, urban core anyway and stick to cliche talking points and concern trolling, yes we all acknowledged your concerny concerns.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by PhillyRising

That will only last as long as the State of Texas bribes companies to relocate...but at some point that will no longer be able to happen.

I bet people in Dallas spend half their day in their cars. No thanks.

Yeah, people in California are free from that...I bet everyone who moved to Texas from California can't wait to enjoy traffic in another state with much higher gas prices when they move back after Texas stops doing what every other state does(just does it better).

Also, are we assuming all the companies that moved there are just WAITING patiently to move out at some predetermined time in the future?


Let's face it. I don't like California because of its liberalism. You don't like Texas because of its conservatism. You want Texas to fail because it will prove conservative economics don't work, just as I keep seeing liberals bring up Kansas(LOL) as proof. If Texas goes down the drain you guys will have a field day.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by edale

It's not even worth it to respond to you, as you seem like a hopelessly insecure homer. I don't need to go through each of your examples to show how ridiculously cherry picked they are (and even then, don't show anything remotely comparable to the urban commercial offerings of a much smaller city- Pittsburgh). I don't need to cite the numbers of vacant and abandoned buildings in the city, or the foreclosure numbers, or post shots of decimated commercial corridors. Again, I really like Detroit and take no pleasure in its troubles. But I am realistic and objective. Detroit's troubles are unique in their scale and prevalence, and there really isn't much to argue about there. I'm not blaming the city for getting the way it is, and I'm certainly not blaming the residents. But let's be real about it.

FYI I was the one who called the OP out for the bullshit trolling that started this thread. My post was deleted of course, but I called Sunbelt out point by point on his BS list of 'reasons' he was considering investing in Detroit. I did so both in posts on this thread and PM. It's not fair or fun to kick a place while it's down, and I certainly did not intend to do that here.

Detroit is a place I visited a lot as a kid and it's a place I still really care about, despite what you or other homers might think. The more I learn about the city and its history, though, the more I realize just how daunting the task of revitalizing Detroit is. As a planner, it's hard to admit that I don't know the answer or have a strategy in mind that could work to bring the place back. But when you're not only fighting against physical blight, but also decades of racial injustice, the collapse of domestic blue collar industry, predatory banking and lending....it's pretty damn hard to be super optimistic. I have friends who work in Detroit in planning and other related fields, and I love to hear about the good work they're doing. Again, I wish nothing but the best for Detroit and the other cities dealing with similar issues.

I agree with you. It's not that people root for failure, so much as people root for realism. Realism with a sprinkle of optimism is not problematic, but without consideration of the sad and inconvenient truths, total optimism is unreal.

Detroit will continue to rot and bloom at the same time, it's just that the rot is more extensive and pervasive than the rare patches of bloom. And that is unusual in the urban America of 2019.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Yeah, people in California are free from that...I bet everyone who moved to Texas from California can't wait to enjoy traffic in another state with much higher gas prices when they move back after Texas stops doing what every other state does(just does it better).

Also, are we assuming all the companies that moved there are just WAITING patiently to move out at some predetermined time in the future?


Let's face it. I don't like California because of its liberalism. You don't like Texas because of its conservatism. You want Texas to fail because it will prove conservative economics don't work, just as I keep seeing liberals bring up Kansas(LOL) as proof. If Texas goes down the drain you guys will have a field day.

You quit California, with prejudice. You have what they call the "zeal" of a convert.

[edale]

Since you want to be a dick, The North One, let's look at your examples.

Originally Posted by The North One

Oh outside the core? Detroit too, yep.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3179...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3680...7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3231...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3550...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3961...7i16384!8i8192

1) Boarded up buildings, a few random Mexican businesses. Not exactly a thriving street scene

2) There literally isn't any retail in this street scene lol. Plus, zoom out and it's parking lots in 3 directions.

3) Again, 1 block of commercial, parking lots abound and immediately adjacent to a freeway

4) Not even a block. Maybe 3 or 4 commercial spaces total? Not a commercial district

5) Hamtramck is not in the city of Detroit

It's clear as day. Detroit has no remaining commercial corridors or vibrant retail areas. The examples I posted from Pittsburgh are just parts of larger commercial districts that are loaded with businesses of all kinds. Explore those links a little bit to see what I mean if you don't believe me. Carson St. in the South Side has like miles of uninterrupted commercial activity. Shadyside has national retailers like Apple and Sephora. Squirrel Hill has a super vibrant and busy neighborhood business district that spans a couple streets and multiple blocks. You can repeat this exercise in any number of cities across the country and find similar scenes. Not in Detroit. That is one aspect that helps demonstrate the unique position Detroit is in. If it's going to have viable commercial corridors and neighborhood business districts again, they will largely have to be built new. Perhaps the lone outlier is Mexicantown, and even that I hesitate to equate with any of the PGH examples...

[eschaton]

On the subject of Pittsburgh, for another forum I just found this old list I made of 32 different walkable business districts within city limits.

Yes, 32.

Originally Posted by eschaton

Here's links to most of the the walkable business districts in Pittsburgh. The ones lower down the list ain't all impressive, but they're there.

1. East Carson Street (South Side)
2. Butler Street (Lawrenceville)
3. Penn Avenue (Strip District)
4. Forbes Avenue (Oakland)
5. Murray Avenue (Squirrel Hill)
6. Walnut Street (Shadyside)
7. Liberty Avenue (Bloomfield)
8. Penn Avenue (Garfield)
9. East Ohio Street (Deutschtown)
10. Brookline Boulevard (Brookline)
11. South Highland Avenue (Shadyside/East Liberty)
12. Penn Avenue (East Liberty)
13. Bryant Street (Highland Park)
14. Greenwood Street (Morningside)
16. Ellsworth Avenue (Shadyside)
17. Greenfield Avenue (Greenfield)
18. Murray Avenue (Greenfield)
19. Shiloh Street (Mount Washington)
21. Broadway Avenue (Beechview)
22. East Warrington Avenue (Allentown)
23. West End Village (West End)
24. Western Avenue (Allegheny West)
25. Semple Street (Oakland)
26. South Craig St (Oakland)
27. Federal Street (North Shore)
28. Federal Street (Central North Side)
29. California Avenue (Brighton Heights)
30. Perrysville Avenue (Observatory Hill)
31. Penn Avenue (Bloomfield)
32. North Craig/Centre (Oakland)

Honestly not done. I could think of another five at least, but they mostly aren't impressive. There are maybe a dozen walkable suburban business districts which are relatively intact and active however.

[Crawford]

Pittsburgh proper is objectively healthier than Detroit proper, by almost any measure.

But Metro Detroit is objectively healthier than Metro Pittsburgh by most measures.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Pittsburgh proper is objectively healthier than Detroit proper, by almost any measure.

But Metro Detroit is objectively healthier than Metro Pittsburgh by most measures.

I would agree to this. There's very little vitality in the suburbs of Pittsburgh, and much of what there is is basically just shuffling around what is already there (i.e., people moving from dated first/second ring suburbs into the exurban fringe).

In the last two years a lot of companies with corporate offices in the suburbs have announced they're moving into the city (Phillips, Bombardier, Wabtec, etc) which is only going to accelerate the wealth/brain drain from the burbs.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by edale

Since you want to be a dick, The North One, let's look at your examples.



1) Boarded up buildings, a few random Mexican businesses. Not exactly a thriving street scene

2) There literally isn't any retail in this street scene lol. Plus, zoom out and it's parking lots in 3 directions.

3) Again, 1 block of commercial, parking lots abound and immediately adjacent to a freeway

4) Not even a block. Maybe 3 or 4 commercial spaces total? Not a commercial district

5) Hamtramck is not in the city of Detroit

It's clear as day. Detroit has no remaining commercial corridors or vibrant retail areas. The examples I posted from Pittsburgh are just parts of larger commercial districts that are loaded with businesses of all kinds. Explore those links a little bit to see what I mean if you don't believe me. Carson St. in the South Side has like miles of uninterrupted commercial activity. Shadyside has national retailers like Apple and Sephora. Squirrel Hill has a super vibrant and busy neighborhood business district that spans a couple streets and multiple blocks. You can repeat this exercise in any number of cities across the country and find similar scenes. Not in Detroit. That is one aspect that helps demonstrate the unique position Detroit is in. If it's going to have viable commercial corridors and neighborhood business districts again, they will largely have to be built new. Perhaps the lone outlier is Mexicantown, and even that I hesitate to equate with any of the PGH examples...

The North One may sound like a dick, but he's right. I don't think he said anywhere that Pittsburgh city isn't in better shape than Detroit city. But pronouncing Detroit irredeemable is pretty absurd. Using a PBS documentary to make your case compounds the absurdity.

There are a lot of things that need to go right for Detroit, but I think we can all agree that its potential rebound can be epic. There really isn't another city in the world right now whose resurgence has the potential to make waves like Detroit's.

[Kenmore]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Yeah, people in California are free from that...I bet everyone who moved to Texas from California can't wait to enjoy traffic in another state with much higher gas prices when they move back after Texas stops doing what every other state does(just does it better).

Also, are we assuming all the companies that moved there are just WAITING patiently to move out at some predetermined time in the future?


Let's face it. I don't like California because of its liberalism. You don't like Texas because of its conservatism. You want Texas to fail because it will prove conservative economics don't work, just as I keep seeing liberals bring up Kansas(LOL) as proof. If Texas goes down the drain you guys will have a field day.

when tribalism has rotted your brain^

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by craigs

You quit California, with prejudice. You have what they call the "zeal" of a convert.

Huh? I never lived in California.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Kenmore

when tribalism has rotted your brain^

I am literally pointing out that tribalism makes people want a state to fail=my brain rotting from tribalism lol

I never said I want California to fail. The country is better off if they are better off. They go into a recession, we all do.

Some people seem to be praying that Texas starts to fail. Some people want to believe California is drowning in debt and will fail. Both are stupid and wrong.

I don't fall into either of those categories, I want any place in this country to do well.

[SIGSEGV]

Detroit experts, what's your take on this: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/08/...etter-transit/

[Steely Dan]

^ wow, I had no idea that L. Brooks Patterson had died.

It's generally poor form to speak ill of the dead, but he really was a terrible leader.

As for the new transit plan, it looks pretty solid to me.

[lio45]

He was in his 80s, I imagined he'd pass away eventually.

(Just looked him up, he was younger than I thought. Still, 80 years old for an elected official is a pretty advanced age.)