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  #1021  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2019, 5:23 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
Why can't they just make a nice traditional building to match the University architecture?
which part?

this?


this?


this?


this?


this?


this?


this?


this?


seeing as the Williams/Tsien have already designed one award winning U of C building, it would seem theyre matching it pretty well
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  #1022  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2019, 6:35 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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The first one. The original university architecture. I went to a orchestra concert at Mandel Hall Saturday, and it was magnificent and inspiring architecture. I don't like the logan building much either, it doesn't inspire me and is cold and brutal, but it's a bit better than the Obama library.
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  #1023  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2019, 7:54 PM
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trying to pretend to be some 1800s Gothic building in 2019 is missing the point entirely.
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  #1024  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2019, 10:03 PM
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Then I guess it was in 1924, also. After all, structural steel and reinforced concrete were readily available.
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  #1025  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 3:55 AM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Then I guess it was in 1924, also. After all, structural steel and reinforced concrete were readily available.
Totally disingenuous as always...

It's not about availability of modern technology (though that's a valid theoretical criticism of basically anything post Sullivan with a throwback style), it's about the complete and utter unavailability of old world craftsmanship post WWIi.

You don't get to build "yee olde gothice cathedrale schoole" in 2019 because there is no chance of it being built to any kind of construction quality that would do the style justice. Any attempt to do it with precast would end up looking like you dropped a river north condo tower in the middle of Jackson Park...
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  #1026  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 1:25 PM
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^Old world craftsmanship is still available, otherwise we would never be able to repair these buildings, but it is definitely less prevalent and much more expensive today. Computer scanning and fabrication may be able to increasingly replace craftsman in areas such as stone carving to make it more feasible in the future.

But I think in this case it is less about being truthful to the age, or the ability to remake historic buildings well, as it is making an architecture that tells an appropriate story. As Mr. Downtown points out the Gothic Revival buildings of the University of Chicago Campus are already historic reproductions of a style that originates in the 11th-14th centuries. It was done because Gothic was strongly associated with academic learning and university structures from the much older institutions in Europe.

The Obama Center is not being constructed in Gothic Revival because the style wouldn't impart the message that our former president wants to convey, nor would it have any relevance to his presidency. One could argue whether the current building has the right tone, shape, etc, etc, but a building an a Classical or other historical style isn't going to do the job. It's similar to how a Classical building on the Mall in Washington DC was not going to be able to effectively tell the story of African American or American Indian history.
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  #1027  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 1:36 PM
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Building a building in 2019 that looks like it was built in 2019 makes the most sense. When I think of Obama I dont think of 1920s gothic revival. Even the American 1920s gothic style was just a rip off of European styles.
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  #1028  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 1:39 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Ned.B View Post
^Old world craftsmanship is still available, otherwise we would never be able to repair these buildings, but it is definitely less prevalent and much more expensive today. Computer scanning and fabrication may be able to increasingly replace craftsman in areas such as stone carving to make it more feasible in the future.
OK, so you are basically saying it's not widely availible which is literally exactly what I just said. You can't build stuff like that anymore because there simply are not tens of thousands of skilled old world craftsman immigrating to the US anymore. That makes it cost prohibitive because the supply of that kind of labor is low. Low supply = high price. We are saying the same thing.

Quote:
The Obama Center is not being constructed in Gothic Revival because the style wouldn't impart the message that our former president wants to convey, nor would it have any relevance to his presidency. One could argue whether the current building has the right tone, shape, etc, etc, but a building an a Classical or other historical style isn't going to do the job. It's similar to how a Classical building on the Mall in Washington DC was not going to be able to effectively tell the story of African American or American Indian history.
This is a great point. It's no coincidence our first black president was named Barack Obama and not "Johnny Washington". Obama doesn't come from a historically oppressed African American heritage, but even he dropped the anglocized "Barry" nickname as he became more aware of his politics.
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  #1029  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 2:12 PM
Ned.B Ned.B is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
OK, so you are basically saying it's not widely availible which is literally exactly what I just said. You can't build stuff like that anymore because there simply are not tens of thousands of skilled old world craftsman immigrating to the US anymore. That makes it cost prohibitive because the supply of that kind of labor is low. Low supply = high price. We are saying the same thing.
I don't think we are quite saying the same thing. I'm arguing that it is absolutely possibly to design and build in a historic style, but it takes the right architect, and some healthy funds, and the modern versions may not have the same level of intricate carving...at least in stone...as the originals. Examples include the Murray and Franklin Colleges in Yale (RAMSA), Anheiser Busch Hall at Washington U (Hartman-Cox) or the Tuscaloosa Courthouse (HBRA). But in either event it's not really appropriate here.
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  #1030  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 2:47 PM
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of course its possible, anything is with the will and budget. but just saying "it should match the surrounding campus" does miss the point. look at the new African American museum in DC, and the way it too departs from its neoclassical surroundings, and how its design was influenced. look at the kind of art and music obama was into. his friendship with Theaster Gates. look at who obama commissioned to paint his/michelle's portraits at the Smithsonian. he represents the new thinking about AA history, their contributions to American society, and what it means to be Black moving forward. it should come as zero surprise his building would brake from a traditional mold. once you start peeling back the layers, you can start to make sense of where the inspirations for this building are coming from. look at the modernist architecture in major African cities and you'll start to quickly begin seeing similarities. he is a person who is VERY conscious of symbolism, and what things represent. selecting a gothic or neo-classical building would symbolize the Old, Stodgy, White, European-Influenced, Conservative, Cloistered worldview, even if he was a part of it and came out of that to some degree, thats certainly not what hes going to choose to represent his legacy.

that Obama would choose something like this, and the Bushes would choose something like this, says everything that is/was different about their ways of thinking




Last edited by Steely Dan; Oct 30, 2019 at 6:38 PM.
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  #1031  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 2:51 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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There's a thread here about new buildings built in traditional styles.
Here's a new gothic cathedral being built in the US today.

http://www.mccreryarchitects.com/por...el-of-america/

It can be done if someone wants to do it.

Otherwise, what does this building say about 2019 today? It seems ugly and oppressive. It seems to me that it says we are ants in an ant colony. How about some beauty in the building instead?
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  #1032  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 2:53 PM
Chi-Sky21 Chi-Sky21 is offline
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Wyoming? Did not see that one coming...
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  #1033  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 2:56 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
Otherwise, what does this building say about 2019 today? It seems ugly and oppressive. It seems to me that it says we are ants in an ant colony. How about some beauty in the building instead?
funny i dont see you saying this about the thousands of anonymous glass skyscrapers that make up our skyline and way of life. if youre gonna go this route, whats more oppressive and de-humanizing than this


Last edited by Via Chicago; Oct 30, 2019 at 3:11 PM.
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  #1034  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 3:13 PM
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and i should say i dont LOVE the design. but i can see where its coming from. and if its executed well with high quality worksmanship (which it will be given the individual and budget), i have no doubt it will become a landmark in its own right
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  #1035  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 7:10 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
funny i dont see you saying this about the thousands of anonymous glass skyscrapers that make up our skyline and way of life. if youre gonna go this route, whats more c than this

I don't think I said that those building in the federal plasa aren't also de-humanizing. I would say they are as well, I think the building on that site there before was 1000% better, and would be a icon of city today. They tore it down for oppressive and de-humanizing buildings, that do have nice proportions at least. You can make modern buildings with classical orderly proportions, at least those look aesthetically nicer.

The dome of the old federal building was gilded which you can't tell from the black and white photos. The rotunda's 100 ft (30 m) diameter made it larger than that of the United States Capitol in Washington, D.C. Marble from Tennessee, Vermont, Maine and Italy was used in corridor floors, wainscoting and stairways. Floors in the rotunda were marble accented with mosaic tile while railings and elevator grilles throughout the building were wrought iron. Ceilings were framed by egg-and-dart mouldings. The four courtrooms on the sixth floor contained a series of murals depicting historical moments in the development of law. I wish I could have seen that building. I think a building like that would uplift people in any age and for all time.

I think a great example of a modern building that is uplifting is the Oslo city hall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_City_Hall

It is built with modern design and methods, but has beautiful artwork and murals that uplift the spirit of humanity, and give you a faith in government that is sorely lacking in the US. It's like a temple to humanism and good government. I would have liked to see Obama incorporate some elements from that building.

Last edited by Baronvonellis; Oct 30, 2019 at 7:21 PM.
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  #1036  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 8:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
I think a great example of a modern building that is uplifting is the Oslo city hall.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_City_Hall

It is built with modern design and methods, but has beautiful artwork and murals that uplift the spirit of humanity, and give you a faith in government that is sorely lacking in the US. It's like a temple to humanism and good government. I would have liked to see Obama incorporate some elements from that building.
we must have very different tastes because i dont see whats so great about that building. looks more like a county hospital from the outside. im sure the murals are nice but thats really not doing it for me from the outside. this is really your choice for non-oppressive? i mean this is giving me pure 1984 vibes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hall-north.jpg

Last edited by Tom In Chicago; Oct 31, 2019 at 3:14 PM. Reason: please post hyperlinks for off-topic images
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  #1037  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2019, 8:36 PM
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compare that above building to the below.

like we can look at their prior designs and the hand they take in crafting something that feels light and airy and part of its environment, with an eye towards careful material selection and integration with nature and small details. i dont know how you think a firm that makes designs like this would ultimately wind up making something that would come off as overbearing

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/...6_1204C-41.jpg

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/..._1204C-15B.jpg

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/..._8th_Floor.jpg

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/...-I-TR-Shop.jpg

https://www.architecturalrecord.com/...dlinger-02.jpg

https://cooper.edu/sites/default/fil...ning-Zhang.jpg

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...each-house.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/vHSjM0RG/1250-08.jpg

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/...-1453_05_1.jpg

you can say what you will but these are very thoughtful, welcoming, sensitive buildings. and i truly believe this building would be approached with the same level of sensitivity, even if it does happen to be tall for its surroundings. at this point i think this couple has earned the benefit of the doubt.

Last edited by Tom In Chicago; Oct 31, 2019 at 3:16 PM. Reason: please post hyperlinks for off-topic / non sourced images
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  #1038  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 2:52 AM
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ChiTownWonder ChiTownWonder is offline
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^^ The post above shows why this design would be perfect in the park. Sorry Baronvonellis but the example you show is too civic for something like this. This firm obviously knows how to integrate building with greenery, and as someone mentioned previously I have no reason to doubt the quality of construction and details considering its purpose. Personally I think this design would be great to experience from the park, like a man made butte. Its like an interactive monumental stone. all imo ofc
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  #1039  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 3:38 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
we must have very different tastes because i dont see whats so great about that building. looks more like a county hospital from the outside. im sure the murals are nice but thats really not doing it for me from the outside. this is really your choice for non-oppressive? i mean this is giving me pure 1984 vibes.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Hall-north.jpg
That photo isn't that great on a gloomy day, in person it's a very beautiful and uplifting building.
Maybe this video helps.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=sGlx2B26bWk

https://www.nomadepicureans.com/wp-c...l-Exterior.jpg
https://www.nomadepicureans.com/wp-c...Markovskiy.jpg
https://www.nomadepicureans.com/wp-c...01-ruzanna.jpg

The Nobel Prize is given out in there every year, and everyone in Oslo wants to get married there.

I was just using as an example of a modern building that can be uplifiting.
I think lots of art deco buildings are uplifiting.
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  #1040  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2019, 3:46 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
compare that above building to the below.

like we can look at their prior designs and the hand they take in crafting something that feels light and airy and part of its environment, with an eye towards careful material selection and integration with nature and small details. i dont know how you think a firm that makes designs like this would ultimately wind up making something that would come off as overbearing

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/...6_1204C-41.jpg

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/..._1204C-15B.jpg

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/..._8th_Floor.jpg

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/...-I-TR-Shop.jpg

https://www.architecturalrecord.com/...dlinger-02.jpg

https://cooper.edu/sites/default/fil...ning-Zhang.jpg

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...each-house.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/vHSjM0RG/1250-08.jpg

http://twbta.com/sites/twbta/images/...-1453_05_1.jpg

you can say what you will but these are very thoughtful, welcoming, sensitive buildings. and i truly believe this building would be approached with the same level of sensitivity, even if it does happen to be tall for its surroundings. at this point i think this couple has earned the benefit of the doubt.
Lol, your comparing the worst amateur photo of a building to close up shots of buildings from professional design catalogs.

Those buildings don't inspire me, they are bland and dull. They strip out all decorative elements and human culture and leave you with weird random shapes. I'm talking about buildings that bring humanity and culture.

What does this one say about human culture?
https://cooper.edu/sites/default/fil...ning-Zhang.jpg

It could be in a suburb of Chicago, Cleveland, Taiwan, it happens to be in Mumbai. It's a building of nowhere and says nothing, it's blank and dehumanizing. It looks like a borg cube.
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