Gage Park

[fastcarsfreedom]

Nice shot of the turtle--I have loved that fountain since I was a kid--and I remember it's last "restoration" which I'm ballparking as having been in the 1980s--it could and should be an absolute showpiece in that park. The last time I was in those parts it appeared as though the fountain had been treated as a community pool/latrine. It's neglect/abuse is shameful.

You're right about perceptions--absolutely--the thing is, positive changes can occur in a short period of time relative to changing perceptions--so investment in the park is a must--ideas will catch up in time--remember that Festival season brings a lot of people into Gage who don't otherwise visit on a regular basis. With the concert shell, fountain, rose garden, greenhouses--Gage has the ability to be a showpiece as urban parks go--all with that great view of the escarpment.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by DC83

I don't think I have ever seen South Asians in Gage Park ever!? Maybe for a picnic, but that's about it.

I worked in the Delta for (almost) 4 years and spent almost every lunch hour in the park (whether it be the afternoon lunch or nightime lunch... depending on my schedule). I have never once been accosted, approached or harassed here.

I also have a female friend who lives right down the street from it, and her and I walk thru the park on nice evenings. Never had any problems
I'm sick of people thinking this park is dangerous or ghetto b/c they heard someone was jumped once a couple years ago, or b/c of it's neighbourhood. Spend as much time in the park as possible... then you'll be comfortable enough to manoever it's wonderful trails without worrying about that group of teens at the tree who are probably just smoking pot anyway.

This isn't East LA, this is Hamilton. Crime here is surprisingly low. So don't listen to CHCH/The Spec's neo-con propoganda! Don't fear Gage Park... it's not a scary place AT ALL: Night or Day!!

Lookin' good!!! I wish the entry-way was a little more eye-catching tho! Maybe a Washington Square'esq type of monument:

Hmmm ... I wonder where you've been hiding. East Hamilton has a sizeable and growing South Asian population, and (to generalize) they do tend to spend a lot of time in public parks, particularly Montgomery and to a slightly lesser extent Gage. Not that this is a relevant consideration at all - the only reason I can think that you would have mentioned your observation at all was to undermine the credibility of my post ... in which case I will say: Good day to you, sir.

No Hamilton is not overly crime-ridden, but it certainly is not crime free either. Gage isn't like Central Park in the 1970s, and I wasn't trying to give that impression at all. Nor was I trying to give cautionary tales of "roving bands of dangerous youth" or anything like that. I had a negative experience in the park. It wasn't anything epic or traumatizing. My sister had an unpleasant experience which was borderline traumatizing. It happens and could have happened anywhere. However, I do believe it was more likely to happen in Gage Park than, say, the park around my parents' house in Dundas.

Without meaning to give offence, I presume part of the fact that you are never accosted or approached in Hamilton has something to do with your age and/or appearance. I am hassled on an almost daily basis by people around my work downtown and so are my colleagues (to such an extent that we now know some of these people who harrass respectable-looking types almost by name). That being said, I am one of the depressingly small number of people in this city who actually has to wear a suit to work on most days, and that clearly is part of the problem. It certainly is more of a problem here in Hamilton, where the proportion of respectable-looking people to hobos (yes, I did just call them hobos) is much more out of whack than in a city like Toronto. Again, location is indeed a relevant consideration.

I like Hamilton because in general there isn't a lot of violent crime. There is quite a lot of theft, vandalism and petty stuff, however, which can be very annoying. Over the years I and members of my immediate family have been victims of a number of small crimes. Aside from the two acts which I mentioned above, I would catalogue them as follows:
- I was violently pushed off my bike in Parkdale Park when I was 11 years old by a bum (yes I did just call him a bum) who then proceeded to pull my hair. This WAS harrowing, particularly since it was completely unprovoked and I didn't see it coming.
- A different bike was stolen outside of the library entrance to Jackson Square, where it had been locked up.
- My father had two cars stolen out of our driveway in Dundas in the same year.
- My father had a lawn mower and some tools stolen out of our garage.
- My mother's car was broken into (windows smashed) in the parking lot of Chedoke Golf Course.
- My parents' front garden was trampled.
- My grandfather's car was broken into on a semi-regular basis parked outside of his house in the Durand.
- My grandfather's house was also broken into once that I know of (a laptop, some cash and jewellery were stolen).

That's all that I can think of that's happened in my lifetime. Not too bad, but not too great either. Hamilton does have crime, but it isn't really in-your-face like crime in Detroit or Baltimore (is reputed to be). Generally speaking, I would say that I felt safer walking alone at night on an empty street in Toronto when I lived there than in I do in Hamilton now, but that when I lived in London I felt more threatened (for whatever that's worth).

Again, part of the problem with Gage park is the proportional demographics. There are tonnes of scruffy people who hang out in London's Hyde Park or New York's Central, but even more respectable-looking people with their kids, jogging, cycling, (and in Hyde Park even riding horses) or just hanging out on benches or the lawn. It makes the place feel safer and more inviting to other respectable-looking people. For a long time Gage Park got a fair amount of bad press in the Hamilton media and I suppose it's never recovered in the eyes of the middle classes. The neighbourhood around it has gone downhill economically and there is little incentive for people to travel from other parts of town to use it.

Hmmm ... what else? Oh yes, the new gates look like shit.

[markbarbera]

Well, if the trampling of flowers is now to be adopted as an indicator of increasing criminal activity, then yes I guess Gage park could be described as a seedy, crime-ridden den.

Seriously, Gage Park a danger zone? Gimme a break. I have spent many great times here. Not once have I witnessed any type of criminal activity. Of course my visits are generally during daylight hours. At any rate the park does not see anything like the criminal activity seen at all hours in other major urban parks such as Allen Gardens in Toronto.

I have moved back here after living in Toronto for a decade, and I feel significantly safer here than in the big smoke. It is all down to your presonal perspective and prejudices, I suppose. I recall being highy intimidated by a bunch of white guys on Vespas that circled me in Toronto's Cedarvale Park one day... but that could be a case of repressed false-memory syndrome.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Well, if the trampling of flowers is now to be adopted as an indicator of increasing criminal activity, then yes I guess Gage park could be described as a seedy, crime-ridden den.

Hmmmm ... that was kind of my whole point, that crime in Hamilton, while it certainly still occurs, tends to be on the rather trivial side - at least the type of crime that "normal" people are exposed to, at any rate. As a factor in Hamilton's overall liveablity, I would say it figures as a nuisance more than a threat.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Well, if the trampling of flowers is now to be adopted as an indicator of increasing criminal activity, then yes I guess Gage park could be described as a seedy, crime-ridden den.

Seriously, Gage Park a danger zone? Gimme a break. I have spent many great times here. Not once have I witnessed any type of criminal activity. Of course my visits are generally during daylight hours. At any rate the park does not see anything like the criminal activity seen at all hours in other major urban parks such as Allen Gardens in Toronto.

I have moved back here after living in Toronto for a decade, and I feel significantly safer here than in the big smoke. It is all down to your presonal perspective and prejudices, I suppose. I recall being highy intimidated by a bunch of white guys on Vespas that circled me in Toronto's Cedarvale Park one day... but that could be a case of repressed false-memory syndrome.

I'd stay away from the treed groves.

A couple of years ago I was participating in a clean up of Gage Park and every grove had many used condoms and needles.

Not that I think its unsafe, but there needs to be a officer or two who'd do some walk arounds at night.

[SteelTown]

Have you guys seen Mcqueston Park? Across from Limeridge Mall over the Linc? The city did a nice job with that park.

[realcity]

^ yes I was there, it sucks. They didn't plant enough trees. The city is against dense treed areas because they think 'skateborders' will hang out and smoke cigarettes stolen from their mom's purse in the cover of the trees. Best to keep the bored suburban teens in their 'great rooms' with the X-Box and msn.

It was not the work of skilled landscape architects like H.B. Dunington-Grubb of Gage Park. Any weekend crash-course in Frederick Law Olmsted's work and the designers would've built it from the perspective of scale and socializing.

I took my children there to bike ride (a change from Gage Park) and it was barren, the pathway was decent but not 'friendly', too spread out and you'll get heatstroke before you finish it. At every turn I felt like I was just here, boring essentially, lacking detail (because the detail might be vandalized by the bored teenagers). It's a poor job in designing a public space. It's like a public space for a public that still cherishes privacy over interacting with fellow citizens. It's a moonscape.

The Bayfront Park was well designed but McQueston was a huge dissappointment for me. Isn't this the park they refused a skatepark?

The police and city planners wouldn't want loitering happening, we might start congegating and perhaps even begin to hatch a plan about starting a trade union or an alternative political party. o my... better keep the serfs from too much social contact. get them back indoors and in front of the tv where we have control over their thoughts.

It's good for about 30 minutes but then the space makes you feel like you need to get the hell out. Not like Gage Park, where an afternoon picnic and kite flying in a public space feels comfortable.

[SteelTown]

I was talking more about the front entrance for McQueston, it's better than the Gage Park rendering plan.

[DC83]

^^ hahaha so funny, realcity!

Ya, they scrapped the skate park for McQueston and put it up at Turner (Rymal/Upp Wellington) instead.

I always thought that park looked naked, as well. Way too little trees. When they 1st built it, I was confident the trees would eventually grow into a thick, dense park like Gage... what's it been like 15 years now? They're still skinny, short trees.

My favourite thing about McQueston is the light posts at the entrance... they are replicas of the light posts on the T.B. McQueston High Level Bridge (whoa... quite the name). The entry way is ALSO a problem as it obviously caters more to cars than to passers-by/pedestrians.

The park CAN be saved tho... but wont happen for years still.

[realcity]

Interestingly public congregation has been a maniacal fear in N.A. For some reason we actually had to fight for a RIGHT to Assemble. As if this wasn't a human right, but only a civil right -- one that could be taken away. In Europe this is part of civic life. In N.A. our public space has been designed to discourage any kind of loitering, socializing and congregating. Even passing laws on both public and private space against "Loitering". 30 minutes or more and you must be up to no good, planning a bank robbery or 'staking out the place'. It's at the point now that we see 4 or 5 people doing just that in Gage Park and automatically suspect "They're up to something" with fear. In Europe a group would see 4 or 5 people talking and then join them.

The fear dates back to labour movements and fear of communist uprising.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by realcity

Interestingly public congregation has been a maniacal fear in N.A. For some reason we actually had to fight for a RIGHT to Assemble. As if this wasn't a human right, but only a civil right -- one that could be taken away. In Europe this is part of civic life. In N.A. our public space has been designed to discourage any kind of loitering, socializing and congregating. Even passing laws on both public and private space against "Loitering". 30 minutes or more and you must be up to no good, planning a bank robbery or 'staking out the place'. It's at the point now that we see 4 or 5 people doing just that in Gage Park and automatically suspect "They're up to something" with fear. In Europe a group would see 4 or 5 people talking and then join them.

The fear dates back to labour movements and fear of communist uprising.

I think it also dates back to street gangs.

But its interesting, they make huge open spaces so nothing is hidden, but then they don't want you to stand around too long.

While I think we should be allowed to "loiter" on public property, I think Private Landowners have every right to manage their property (including no loitering rules) as they see fit.

[raisethehammer]

McQueston Park is a travesty, especially considering who they named it after.
If he was alive today he would grab a bulldozer and "fix" that mess himself.

[RePinion]

Originally Posted by realcity

Interestingly public congregation has been a maniacal fear in N.A. For some reason we actually had to fight for a RIGHT to Assemble. As if this wasn't a human right, but only a civil right -- one that could be taken away. In Europe this is part of civic life. In N.A. our public space has been designed to discourage any kind of loitering, socializing and congregating. Even passing laws on both public and private space against "Loitering". 30 minutes or more and you must be up to no good, planning a bank robbery or 'staking out the place'. It's at the point now that we see 4 or 5 people doing just that in Gage Park and automatically suspect "They're up to something" with fear. In Europe a group would see 4 or 5 people talking and then join them.

The fear dates back to labour movements and fear of communist uprising.

You're right - in North America it does go back to establishment concerns over labour uprisings in the 19th and early 20th centuries. However, virtually every government in continental Europe - whether in France, Germany, Italy, or Spain - has at some point in its history tried to limit the right of the people to organize. So to say that it has been recognized as a "human right" as opposed to a "civil right" in those countries is not quite accurate (moreover, the legal philosophy of these countries has always been firmly positivist so perforce skeptical of naturalist/universalist concepts like human rights). However, English law has consistently been profoundly circumspect when it comes to rights of free assembly, which explains why the right has traditionally been a rather impoverished one in both Canada and the US (since both countries largely adopt the traditions and conventions of the English common law).

I would agree in general that North American (but also British) societies have always been much more timorous when it comes to the possibility of social disorder than have continental European societies. Anglo societies have always been much, much less communitarian; consequently their focus has usually been upon stability of social order and preservation of individual rights.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Crime is a reality--what I find interesting is that amongst many here there is nearly fanatical backlash to the overstating of crime in the inner-city. It seems no one wants to mention it--let alone talk about it. If there are kids smoking pot, syringes, condoms and people being pushed off bikes--that's crime--pretending it's not there, is insignificant or resorting to highlighting crimes outside the city doesn't address the problem.

The point is well-made that the "majority" of civillians are exposed to relatively little crime--in reality crime is a far more pervasive, frequent and common than most citizens realize. Society as a whole is, in my opinion, becoming increasingly permissive and desensitized to crime--regardless of it's severity. The police cannot, and will not, be everywhere at all times. Increased patrols do have a positive effect--but not nearly as much impact as a motivated community. If that park was in my neighborhood I would be seriously concerned about pot-smoking youths, discarded syringes and used biohazardous condoms--I'd be lobbying to have some money sunk into the concert shell and if I had to, I'd be scrubbing those damn tags off the fountain. It seems to me that's a far bigger issue than the aesthetic of a brick entryway.

Indeed, I grew up in the suburbs (or exurbs for that matter)--but my family's roots are in the east end. On the day of my graduation from 8th Grade, we drove from Greensville down to Gage--I actually remember the evening vividly. We stopped at the Delta-area DQ and drove to the park. It was a quiet, warm, humid June evening--and for the only time in my life I got up on the stage of the band shell in the deserted park...my seminal memory of Gage Park.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Crime is a reality--what I find interesting is that amongst many here there is nearly fanatical backlash to the overstating of crime in the inner-city. It seems no one wants to mention it--let alone talk about it. If there are kids smoking pot, syringes, condoms and people being pushed off bikes--that's crime--pretending it's not there, is insignificant or resorting to highlighting crimes outside the city doesn't address the problem.

You nailed my main point without even realizing it. Crime in Hamilton's inner city is overstated. As someone who lives in the inner city, I am tired of it constantly being painted with broad brushstrokes by those looking at it from the outside. It's not that we do not want it discussed, we want it kept in proper perspective. If your neighbourhood's crime level was being constantly exagerrated and overstated, would you not raise a voice so a more truthful representation be heard? Are you suggesting I simply let these exaggerations go unchallenged and allow the perception to continue to be perverted? For years this has been the case, to the point that those who have not even set foot downtown have this perception far removed from reality. Downtown has suffered greatly from the consequences of this perception.

As far as addressing the 'problems' of downtown, perhaps the solution is to have the police crack down on all these suburbanites driving downtown to score some dope or pick up a prostitute. After all, it can't be us po' folk in the inner city doing these deals - we can't possibly afford those big shiny cars cruising the back alleys...

[HAMRetrofit]

As far as I am concerned there is relatively no crime downtown Hamilton. I have a hard time taking people seriously when they speak of it as some type of crime haven. My typical reaction is usually a laugh followed by an oh yeah .

[realcity]

I've never seen a syringe or glue bottle in Gage Park.

As far as designing public spaces: At least Europe still has the culture and civic spaces that are acceptable to social assembly and congregation.

My point was the city still continues to say "our tax base is becoming overwhelmingly burdened by residential" but then re-zones industrial lands to resindential -- as they scratch their heads to this problem of increasing residential taxes. And on the other hand they say "our city needs places for people to exercise, socialize and take part of civic life" essentially to give a shit about their built environment -- to have pride in the city they live in. Then the city builds public spaces that people won't enjoy being in, and avoids building outdoor recreation and amenities because of potential vandalism or groups of youths might congregate and scare the soccer moms living near the parks. Why are we afraid of 5 people standing around talking? If they're over 60 sitting in Centre Mall or Mountain Plaza Mall and have a European accent we're okay with it. But if they are teens, we think they're dealing dope and planning a bank robbery.

Strangley the most popular place to "tag" in Hamilton is along the Linc.

If this City gave as much attention as it does for Graffiti and Parking to zoning proper neighbourhoods we wouldn't have these problems.

Park illegal somewhere and you're fined in 10 minutes. Have spray paint on your building and you better have it removed in 10 days. But happy motoring 30 km over the speed limit and feel free to put a drive thru anywhere, and put up a mobile sign for as long as you want, and idle your car as long as you want, and use pesticides however you please.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

As far as I am concerned there is relatively no crime downtown Hamilton. I have a hard time taking people seriously when they speak of it as some type of crime haven. My typical reaction is usually a laugh followed by an oh yeah .

I'm pretty sure I could take a walk around the block and find some sketchiness right now. I refuse to use the north exit of this building (facing Wilson) because of all the stupidity that happens around there. I'm sure if the building next to us and the parking lot were "repurposed" this may change, but c'est la vie.

Did you hear about all the mugging that happened yesterday?

[fastcarsfreedom]

It's amazing--I can't even initiate a discussion here without being turned into an urban/suburban debate. Saying the solution is to crack down on "suburbanites" who drive into the city to buy drugs makes as much as sense as cracking down on "those people from the city" who are committing property crimes in the suburbs. While you're pleading for people to let go of their biases toward the city you might want to take a moment or two to think about your own.

markbarbera--just as there is exists a 'perception' that the inner-city is addled with crime (it isn't) there is also a 'perception' amongst some posters that it is grossly overstated--in fact, it is neither. The point I was making was that in light of that there is hysterical phobia amongst people trying to advance the cause of downtown of discussing crime. Any mention of it sets off howls about how the Spectator and CHCH and the HPS overstate crime, and how there is crime in the suburbs--crime exists in the city--since you are passionate about bringing the core back to life, you might want to deal with the crime that's there and let the suburbs deal with what they have to deal with (you don't care what happens to people 'out there' anyway...so let it go.)

The vast majority of crime--as it exists--both urban and suburban (and rural for that matter)--actually doesn't impact the majority of citizens on a day-to-day basis. However, this 'gross overstatement' of inner-city crime is a fallacy--very little crime actually goes reported in the media--and it's pervasive everywhere--downtown, uptown and out-of-town.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Saying the solution is to crack down on "suburbanites" who drive into the city to buy drugs makes as much as sense as cracking down on "those people from the city" who are committing property crimes in the suburbs. While you're pleading for people to let go of their biases toward the city you might want to take a moment or two to think about your own.

Despite my excessive use of sarcasm in my previous post, my exercise in irony was obviously lost on you. The statement was designed to demonstrate the kind of generalizations urban Hamiltonians have to put up with on a day-to-day basis, only applying it to suburbanites. I find it interesting to note the prompt backlash from the overstating of crime perpetrated by suburbanites from those trying to advance the cause of suburbia...