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  #161  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 10:30 PM
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Just another way to slice it.


It's in the water.
That map is whack. There is no "California" watershed--there's the Sacramento River watershed, the Klamath, the Trinity, the Eel, etc.

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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
i mean, its just an annex. that railroad and immigrant system went straight over to washington state where theres like midwesterny scandinavian towns.
The first intercontinental railroad connected California with parts east in 1869--but Washington state wasn't connected until 1883. Why would you think Washington would see a 'railroad and immigrant system' that California did not?
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  #162  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
That map is whack. There is no "California" watershed--there's the Sacramento River watershed, the Klamath, the Trinity, the Eel, etc.
The map shows an appropriate level of detail. If it showed every single waterway it would be too busy and it would actually be less useful for illustrative purposes.

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  #163  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 11:06 PM
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Nice. The father of waters flows unvexed to the sea
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  #164  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2020, 11:15 PM
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Unless you're in Salt Lake City, where a slow, parched and very salty death awaits.
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  #165  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 2:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post


The first intercontinental railroad connected California with parts east in 1869--but Washington state wasn't connected until 1883. Why would you think Washington would see a 'railroad and immigrant system' that California did not?
i was talking about specifically the northern tier in that case. the northern pacific, etc. also i think there was something about that corridor that made it more homogenous - historically theres been midwestern echos scattered around the pacific northwest whereas california is its own thing that predates the thing i was stabbing for.
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  #166  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 3:02 AM
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How could Jacksonville with its world class skyline go so strongly for Trump?
We Floridians have a running joke about Jax.
If it suddenly reemerged across the state line in Georgia nobody would notice !

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  #167  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 6:18 AM
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Yeah, upstate New York feels a lot like Michigan to me, especially in parts of the state outside of Detroit. Ypsilanti, Michigan, would blend in perfectly well with the small cities in New York, such as Utica.

I think the lower Midwest has more spillover of the Scots-Irish culture that dominates/dominated the southeast quadrant of the country.
There's some similarities with Ypsilanti in suburbs but much of Utica itself has more of an inland New England vibe. Upstate NY gets more Midwest-y the further you get.
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  #168  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 7:51 AM
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No. Jacksonville is where it is supposed to be - in Florida where it fits in nicely. Jacksonville is more like Florida in sooo many ways than it is like Georgia.

And I'm not even being derisive about Jacksonville which seems to be the joy of so many on here.

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We Floridians have a running joke about Jax.
If it suddenly reemerged across the state line in Georgia nobody would notice !

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  #169  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 7:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
i was talking about specifically the northern tier in that case. the northern pacific, etc. also i think there was something about that corridor that made it more homogenous - historically theres been midwestern echos scattered around the pacific northwest whereas california is its own thing that predates the thing i was stabbing for.
I've never noticed 'Midwestern echoes' in the Pacific northwest--what do you mean?
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  #170  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 9:15 PM
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^ Similar immigrant groups settled heavily in both regions, particularly scandinavians and germans in places like WI, MN, and also Washington state.

This has resulted in a more progressive bent that has persisted to this day - Minnesota and Washington are very culturally similar, down the reputations for very passive-aggressive, introverted personalities.
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  #171  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 9:22 PM
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Politically, Minnesota is 60% Seattle, 40% Iowa.
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  #172  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
There's some similarities with Ypsilanti in suburbs but much of Utica itself has more of an inland New England vibe. Upstate NY gets more Midwest-y the further you get.
Yeah, I feel Buffalo and Rochester have a Midwest/Great Lakes vibe. Once you get to Syracuse and Finger Lakes, the vibe is more NE, or at least Northeast Corridor-adjunct. It's just much older and more rooted.
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  #173  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 10:29 PM
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I've never noticed 'Midwestern echoes' in the Pacific northwest--what do you mean?
PNW has a lot of whites of Northern European, Protestant descent, not unlike the Upper Midwest. And both have something of an introverted rep. Think "Seattle freeze".

The stock stereotype for both is about the same. Tall, pale, slim, unsmiling whites in unfashionable outdoorsy clothes. No makeup or feminine clothes for women. Basically Northern Germans and Swedes, but in Patagonia instead of Jack Wolfskin.
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  #174  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 10:51 PM
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the unsmiling thing is jarring and noticiable

as are the weird , unflattering haircuts on women

Portlanders are a grim people, 8 months of the year
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  #175  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 10:56 PM
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I've traveled extensively throughout the Northwest--I can drive from my current home into Oregon in an hour and 45 minutes--and I've been to Minnesota a handful of times. I realize most of America's 19th century immigrants from Norway, Sweden and Denmark moved to the upper Midwest, while some others moved to the Northwest. Proportionally, the Dakotas are the home of the highest proportion of Americans who claim Scandinavian ancestry--and they share almost nothing with Seattle. Meanwhile, wiki shows there are more Scandinavian-Americans in California than there are in Washington and Oregon combined. So while there may be some really general similarities between the Northwest and Midwest, which is unsurprising considering it's the same country, I don't think we can say Seattle has "Midwestern echoes" so much as we can note the fading Norwegian and Swedish echoes in both regions. Does that seem fair to say?
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  #176  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2020, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
That map is whack. There is no "California" watershed--there's the Sacramento River watershed, the Klamath, the Trinity, the Eel, etc.
It was just a poor choice of label on the part of the map-maker. Should've been called "Pacific", i.e. "this area drains into the Pacific directly enough that we won't bother". They did essentially that in other areas - note that central Texas (Brazos, Colorado watersheds) wasn't called a made-up "Texas watershed" but rather "(drains all to) Gulf Coast". Same with "Atlantic". (Instead of Connecticut, Hudson, Delaware, etc. watersheds)
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  #177  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2020, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by craigs View Post
I've traveled extensively throughout the Northwest--I can drive from my current home into Oregon in an hour and 45 minutes--and I've been to Minnesota a handful of times. I realize most of America's 19th century immigrants from Norway, Sweden and Denmark moved to the upper Midwest, while some others moved to the Northwest. Proportionally, the Dakotas are the home of the highest proportion of Americans who claim Scandinavian ancestry--and they share almost nothing with Seattle. Meanwhile, wiki shows there are more Scandinavian-Americans in California than there are in Washington and Oregon combined. So while there may be some really general similarities between the Northwest and Midwest, which is unsurprising considering it's the same country, I don't think we can say Seattle has "Midwestern echoes" so much as we can note the fading Norwegian and Swedish echoes in both regions. Does that seem fair to say?
obviously central cities of extremely globally connected cities are changing fast, and seattle is at the top of this. until this year i have been there every year for years.

i certainly never mentioned seattle specifically. in fact other than the scandi museum i’d say nothing at all.

it has become now assimilated as a part of a west coast culture centered on northern california, and this felt almost complete as of 2019, at least swaths of central seattle.

to be sure there are small towns scattered around puget sound and back to the east that well...are very “uncanny valley” upper midwest i guess, if not exact...although i am always surprised. perhaps it’s easier to see when you know what you are seeing.
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Last edited by Centropolis; Nov 22, 2020 at 2:19 AM.
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  #178  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2020, 4:30 PM
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wisconsin is a bit of an outlier here in that it's not dominated by a single large metro, but the 1 - 2 punch of milwaukee and ultra-liberal (by midwest standards) madison was just barely enough to squeak out a very narrow biden win.
i took a deeper look into wisconsin's numbers, and it's interesting how the real number-mover in the state isn't milwaukee, it's madison, even though metro milwaukee is 2.5x bigger.


Milwaukee MSA: 1,575,179

- biden votes: 474,793

- trump votes: 388,155

- net biden votes: 86,638

- biden point margin: +10.0




Madison MSA: 664,865

- biden votes: 295,274

- trump votes: 111,805

- net biden votes: 183,469

- biden point margin: +45.0



so even though the madison MSA is much smaller than milwaukee's, it nets nearly 100,000 more blue votes than milwaukee because it's not saddled with the highly conservative WOW counties like metro milwaukee is.

with a +45.0 for biden, madison might just be the bluest >500K MSA in the interior of the nation. it certainly holds that distinction within the midwest.

and of course, as discussed earlier, most of wisconsin's rural/small town counties aren't nearly as deep red as the lower midwest, thus why milwaukee and madison can just barely overcome wisconsin's rural vote, while st. louis and KC can't do the same in missouri.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 22, 2020 at 7:41 PM.
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  #179  
Old Posted Nov 22, 2020, 11:35 PM
Omaharocks Omaharocks is offline
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Interesting.

Looking at it a different way, I'd guess Madison's MSA is one of the bluest in the U.S. among metros smaller than 1 million.

Looking at the Overall U.S. county map, there don't appear to be too many contenders, since most smaller MSAs are more conservative, or it's a smaller city as part of a larger metro, like Boulder or Ann Arbor.

Santa Fe, NM looks to be up there though, as well as Burlington, VT, both about a 54% spread for Biden.
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  #180  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Omaharocks View Post
Interesting.

Looking at it a different way, I'd guess Madison's MSA is one of the bluest in the U.S. among metros smaller than 1 million.

Looking at the Overall U.S. county map, there don't appear to be too many contenders, since most smaller MSAs are more conservative, or it's a smaller city as part of a larger metro, like Boulder or Ann Arbor.

Santa Fe, NM looks to be up there though, as well as Burlington, VT, both about a 54% spread for Biden.
Here's the five bluest MSAs (only--not included in any CSA) under a million:

*'Urban Honolulu, HI MSA' (population 974,563) went Biden 63%-36%.

*'Springfield, MA MSA' (MSA population 697,382) went Biden 64%-35%

*'Santa Maria-Santa Barbara MSA' (MSA population 446,499) went Biden 65%-33%.

*'Salinas CA MSA' (MSA population 434,061) went Biden 70%-28%.

*'Eugene-Springfield, OR MSA' (MSA population 382,067) went Biden 61%-36%.

Interestingly, Madison, WI is part of a CSA--the Madison-Janesville-Beloit WI CSA.
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