Historic/heritage properties you didn't know much about until they were gone

[OldDartmouthMark]

I thought I would start this thread after catching up on the Noticed In Nova Scotia blog. Lately he has been posting a bunch of old photos that he has taken since the early 1960s, most of which were taken in Halifax. There are a lot of buildings in those photos that are now gone that I've either never seen, or don't remember paying any attention to.

One blog post, however, got my attention this morning. It's not in Halifax, but there was this old house near Avonport that, for some reason, I have always noticed as I drove by it... it seemed to have a presence that drew me in. It is discussed in this post, and it is relevant to this thread because it was torn down in December.



Before I read the post, it was just an interesting old house, but now I realize that "parts of the home probably dated back to the 1760s, and that during the 19th century it was a stage coach inn". When I think of it in that context, it takes on a whole new significance to me, imagining the early days of traversing Nova Scotia, which mostly happened by rail on the old DAR, or by roads that were rough, unpaved, often muddy and rutted, or completely snowy and frozen. It occurs to me how an hour's drive for us today would have been 1 or 2 days of rough travel on these old roads in a stagecoach or on a wagon. An inn such as this probably would have seemed like an oasis in the desert for the weary traveller.

Just wondering if anybody else has had buildings that became significant to them mostly after they were gone.

Edit: A couple of links with more info about the property and its demolition.

https://www.historicplaces.ca/en/rep...u.aspx?id=7996

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...tion-1.5836148

[Good Baklava]

I would throw the mills brothers block in here to help explain another building I had not known about or seen in images until very recently: Casino Theatre. I was most fond of the black building housing duggers with the overhanging bay window and small arch. The same feature appears to be popular for a certain era of haligonian buildings, such as the casino theatre renderings by the architect. Not sure the final result ended up looking exactly like this though since I can't find pre ww2 images, apparently it went through renovations in 1941 & 1963 and I know the bay window does not appear in images from the 1950/60s. I'm wondering how common this type of bay window was at the time, and am having a hard time thinking of other buildings with the same feature still standing in the city today.



Source



Source: Cinema treasures

[mleblanc]

Really interesting. Thanks guy, will be following this post.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

I would throw the mills brothers block in here to help explain another building I had not known about or seen in images until very recently: Casino Theatre. I was most fond of the black building housing duggers with the overhanging bay window and small arch. The same feature appears to be popular for a certain era of haligonian buildings, such as the casino theatre renderings by the architect. Not sure the final result ended up looking exactly like this though since I can't find pre ww2 images, apparently it went through renovations in 1941 & 1963 and I know the bay window does not appear in images from the 1950/60s. I'm wondering how common this type of bay window was at the time, and am having a hard time thinking of other buildings with the same feature still standing in the city today.

To clarify, are you targeting the Mills Brothers block, the Casino Theatre, or just that bay window over arch configuration?

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

To clarify, are you targeting the Mills Brothers block, the Casino Theatre, or just that bay window over arch configuration?

I had originally posted the about the Mills brothers block and the bay window + arch configuration, but after reading the question again and better understanding the instructions I shifted the focus onto casino theatre since I knew less about the building. Really, “all three” would be a good answer since I had not known about the history of Mills brothers until its demolition was announced.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

I had originally posted the about the Mills brothers block and the bay window + arch configuration, but after reading the question again and better understanding the instructions I shifted the focus onto casino theatre since I knew less about the building. Really, “all three” would be a good answer since I had not known about the history of Mills brothers until its demolition was announced.

Thanks for that.

Actually, I just started the thread on the spur of the moment, without much thought as to rules or instructions, but it was just basically reactionary to reading about a building that I had always noticed and found interesting but never knew anything about it really. As often is the case, its story is not well known until it burns or is torn down, and then people post about it or the media reports on it. In this case I was struck by a sense of loss for the community and for myself in a way, that I never really knew enough about it to appreciate it, until it was gone.

So there aren't really any rules per se, I just thought I'd see if others have had similar experiences with old buildings and their histories. As with any thread, I didn't know if it would end with my post or take on a life of its own...

That said, I think the Mills Brothers block fits in perfectly, actually, and applies to my experience as well. I know less about the Casino theatre, though I have a murky memory of going there once back in the 1980s. I had never paid attention to the bay window over arch configuration before, but now I will be looking for it whenever I'm browsing old pics.

The Mills Brothers block is an interesting case. For me, it was 'always there', a staple of Spring Garden Road, and I never paid huge attention to the building, but also in some naive way I never considered that it would disappear some day (in the same way that I never thought the Maritime Life building on the opposite corner would continue to be there). As with anything, nothing lasts forever, even businesses or structures that you considered 'iconic' in some way.

Your post prompted me to look into the history a little more, and I found this site revealing the military history of the site (which I hadn't been aware of): https://hmhps.ca/sites/mills-brothers-block

In terms of the bay window over arch, I found this photo from the Halifax Municipal Archives:



...which shows that the bay window did not exist in 1970. Hmmm... interesting.

There was another post in Noticed in Nova Scotia which included the following statement:

In the 70s Mills did a major renovation and expansion. I believe the work was designed by architect Robert Parker and Associates . One of the associates in this project was Tony Mann , a star graphic and product designer and professor at NSCAD.

So the bay window over arch was added at some point, maybe in the 1970s, but I don't personally remember to be honest. Most likely it was inspired by another (or more than one?) building that the designer had seen and thought it would fit the theme of this building perfectly.

Now did that idea come from another building in Halifax? The Casino Theatre maybe? It would be neat to find out.

[Keith P.]

The Noticed in Nova Scotia blog just offered up a reminiscence of the site of the Capitol Suites on Coburg Road and the grocery stores that preceded it on that site. But unfortunately it does not offer a picture of it in its time as a Capitol Stores outlet. I can understand why as I spent considerable time looking for such a picture to no avail, much to my surprise. I am discovering recently that the old adage about things posted on the internet being there forever is increasingly becoming less true, as (most especially fairly recent) history seems to disappear with disturbing regularity as news sites morph or shut down.

In the absence of a picture of the Coburg Rd Capitol store I can only offer my own memory of it. It was ridiculously small and cramped, to the point where I wonder how one could buy a full grocery order there. It was smaller inside than many of today's C-stores. But they had a produce section, a meat section, frozen food, dairy, and canned/dry goods. I didn't go there often but would visit occasionally in the pre-Sunday shopping days when I needed something on that day when regular stores were closed, or sometimes in the '80s when I lived in the South End and was on my way home in the evenings when I needed something and could pop in and out quickly. It was a real throwback.

Hopefully a picture can be found.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The Noticed in Nova Scotia blog just offered up a reminiscence of the site of the Capitol Suites on Coburg Road and the grocery stores that preceded it on that site. But unfortunately it does not offer a picture of it in its time as a Capitol Stores outlet. I can understand why as I spent considerable time looking for such a picture to no avail, much to my surprise. I am discovering recently that the old adage about things posted on the internet being there forever is increasingly becoming less true, as (most especially fairly recent) history seems to disappear with disturbing regularity as news sites morph or shut down.

In the absence of a picture of the Coburg Rd Capitol store I can only offer my own memory of it. It was ridiculously small and cramped, to the point where I wonder how one could buy a full grocery order there. It was smaller inside than many of today's C-stores. But they had a produce section, a meat section, frozen food, dairy, and canned/dry goods. I didn't go there often but would visit occasionally in the pre-Sunday shopping days when I needed something on that day when regular stores were closed, or sometimes in the '80s when I lived in the South End and was on my way home in the evenings when I needed something and could pop in and out quickly. It was a real throwback.

Hopefully a picture can be found.

I too am surprised no photo of the old Capitol store has popped up. In my school days I frequented that store and loved its ridiculously cramped and busy ambience. Makes me wistful just thinking about it - a great time in my life, even as a student without much cash.

[someone123]

That 1931 photo of the now-demolished Needs building is marvelous. Really interesting period when there are paved streets and cars but also oxcarts in the city. And of course the building used to look much better than its final state. Why are there so many uglier buildings when people are so much wealthier today?

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That said, I think the Mills Brothers block fits in perfectly, actually, and applies to my experience as well. I know less about the Casino theatre, though I have a murky memory of going there once back in the 1980s. I had never paid attention to the bay window over arch configuration before, but now I will be looking for it whenever I'm browsing old pics.

The Mills Brothers block is an interesting case. For me, it was 'always there', a staple of Spring Garden Road, and I never paid huge attention to the building, but also in some naive way I never considered that it would disappear some day (in the same way that I never thought the Maritime Life building on the opposite corner would continue to be there). As with anything, nothing lasts forever, even businesses or structures that you considered 'iconic' in some way.

Your post prompted me to look into the history a little more, and I found this site revealing the military history of the site (which I hadn't been aware of): https://hmhps.ca/sites/mills-brothers-block

In terms of the bay window over arch, I found this photo from the Halifax Municipal Archives:



...which shows that the bay window did not exist in 1970. Hmmm... interesting.

There was another post in Noticed in Nova Scotia which included the following statement:


So the bay window over arch was added at some point, maybe in the 1970s, but I don't personally remember to be honest. Most likely it was inspired by another (or more than one?) building that the designer had seen and thought it would fit the theme of this building perfectly.

Now did that idea come from another building in Halifax? The Casino Theatre maybe? It would be neat to find out.

Interesting, all I can really say is that the renovators did a very convincing job! It goes back to the conversation about rebuilding heritage structures. Now I’m wondering if this feature is really Haligonian and was instead borrowed from somewhere in Europe.

I was not around to experience the Casino Theatre, and the architect (Andrew Cobb) is from a whole other era so his thoughts are lost to history. The best thing to do would be to look at where he was schooled, where he travelled, in order to discern his influences. He was born in Brooklyn and studied at “l’école des beauc arts” in Paris. He also travelled to Italy and England, so a bay window hanging over a centre arch could have been taken from any of the aforementioned places.

Losing that house in the valley so abruptly is a real shame. Usually these histories are well known by locals but published in too few places until it’s too late. I know of a large house in NE Margaree also used as a stagecoach station. Informally known as “big pink” (even though it has been repainted purple) a young carpenter bought it as his first house and is making its rehabilitation a personal project.

[someone123]

I have a vague memory of the Duggers building reno happening around the late 90's or early 2000's, but I could be wrong. I think it was like the Hal Forbes renos in the North End. I hope the new building has that level of detailing, if not the same style or materials.

I did not care for the later fake stone reno that was done to that row of buildings. You can also see how much more detail there was in the 70's-era Mills facade, even though it was no Liberty. I am not a big shopper but if you want to see a department store look up Liberty on Regent Street in London or Galeries Lafayette in Paris. Imagine if the Mills developers, Micco and Westwood, in consultation with some local architects, created a kind of modernist Halifax interpretation of that feel.

[Keith P.]

I think posters are confusing the Casino Theater with the Capital Theater. The Casino on Gottingen was nothing special in my memory. The Capital on Barrington was the one with the remarkable interior fittings and design and is what was mourned when it was taken down in 1974 to construct Maritime Centre.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I think posters are confusing the Casino Theater with the Capital Theater. The Casino on Gottingen was nothing special in my memory. The Capital on Barrington was the one with the remarkable interior fittings and design and is what was mourned when it was taken down in 1974 to construct Maritime Centre.

We're talking about the Andrew Cobb design for the Casino theatre, as shown in Good Baklava's first post in the thread.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

I have a vague memory of the Duggers building reno happening around the late 90's or early 2000's, but I could be wrong. I think it was like the Hal Forbes renos in the North End. I hope the new building has that level of detailing, if not the same style or materials.

I did not care for the later fake stone reno that was done to that row of buildings. You can also see how much more detail there was in the 70's-era Mills facade, even though it was no Liberty. I am not a big shopper but if you want to see a department store look up Liberty on Regent Street in London or Galeries Lafayette in Paris. Imagine if the Mills developers, Micco and Westwood, in consultation with some local architects, created a kind of modernist Halifax interpretation of that feel.

I had forgotten that the Duggers/DJs Tannery/Thirsty Duck building used to be Mahon's Stationery but am reminded of that thanks to the Archives photo. The renos took place in phases, with DJs shoes going in first in the '80s on the main floor, then them opening a healthy little cafe upstairs, before that became the Thirsty Duck. When Duggers took the main floor space in the '90s there were renos but I can't remember exactly when.

That Archives photo shows why there were so many issues with what became the Mills Building later on, as it was originally 2 different buildings with different floor levels. Various attempts to stitch them together into a congruent structure were never really successful although the exterior Tudor treatment could make one think that was so.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Interesting, all I can really say is that the renovators did a very convincing job! It goes back to the conversation about rebuilding heritage structures. Now I’m wondering if this feature is really Haligonian and was instead borrowed from somewhere in Europe.

I was not around to experience the Casino Theatre, and the architect (Andrew Cobb) is from a whole other era so his thoughts are lost to history. The best thing to do would be to look at where he was schooled, where he travelled, in order to discern his influences. He was born in Brooklyn and studied at “l’école des beauc arts” in Paris. He also travelled to Italy and England, so a bay window hanging over a centre arch could have been taken from any of the aforementioned places.

Losing that house in the valley so abruptly is a real shame. Usually these histories are well known by locals but published in too few places until it’s too late. I know of a large house in NE Margaree also used as a stagecoach station. Informally known as “big pink” (even though it has been repainted purple) a young carpenter bought it as his first house and is making its rehabilitation a personal project.

I did a quick search for "bay window above archway" and a few examples came up, including the one linked here, on an old English stone house. I would say that both architects were probably influenced by designs found in Europe, which fits well into the theme of the Mills Brothers complex. That said, much of Halifax's old architecture was European-influenced anyhow.

Great point about how it relates to rebuilding heritage structures as well. I agree!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

That 1931 photo of the now-demolished Needs building is marvelous. Really interesting period when there are paved streets and cars but also oxcarts in the city. And of course the building used to look much better than its final state. Why are there so many uglier buildings when people are so much wealthier today?

I agree, what a great shot!



Source

I believe it is also visible in the background of another 'men shovelling snow' pic in the Clara Dennis collection:



Source

[OldDartmouthMark]

Just a footnote to my original post in this thread:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...port-1.6128115

Charges laid after landmark heritage home demolished in Avonport

The Reid House dated back to the 1760s and was granted heritage status in 1993

The Kings County Historical Society in Nova Scotia says it hopes charges against a developer and company send a message to others thinking of tearing down heritage homes.

People were shocked when the Reid House was demolished in Avonport in December 2020.

"It was a landmark," said Chris Gertridge, a board member of the Kings County Heritage Society. "It had, I feel, so much potential to be a really wonderful historic site, but now we're left with a mess."

The house dated back to the 1760s and was designated a provincial heritage property nearly 30 years ago. It was used as a farm, a tavern, a stagecoach stop, a courthouse, a post office and a polling station.

"It's just a great example of architecture of the time and certainly, in my opinion, one of the oldest houses around. You just don't find houses like this anymore," said Gertridge.

Charges fall under provincial acts

Bassam Nahas and Halifax-based Nanco Developments each face four charges, which were first reported by the SaltWire newspaper network last week.

Nahas and Nanco are each accused of two counts of demolishing a registered provincial heritage property without approval and removing objects from a protected site without a permit.

The charges fall under the Heritage Protection Act and the Special Places Protection Act.

While the municipality did issue a demolition permit, the province said the developer did not apply to deregister the building, which is a requirement under the Heritage Protection Act.

The article doesn't talk about what the penalties might be if they are found guilty but I suspect it will be merely a fine that will probably be considered the cost of doing business by the developer.

Also, it occurs to me that since their illegal act was not deregistering the building before demolishing, it sounds like it would have been possible to demolish it anyhow but probably with a waiting period attached, which isn't really heritage protection, but just a slight deterrent. Perhaps keeping the building intact (and probably having to insure it) during the waiting period would have cost them more than whatever fines they will have to pay from this court action, in which case it would be considered a good business decision.

Of course this is just my speculation, as I don't know the details involved and so am just applying my best guess.

I am puzzled by the disconnect that allowed a demolition permit to be issued while it was still registered as a heritage property, but I guess it's just a government thing. I see rural NS municipalities as being somewhat frail and bare-bones these days, so perhaps it shouldn't be a surprise.

[ns_kid]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The article doesn't talk about what the penalties might be if they are found guilty but I suspect it will be merely a fine that will probably be considered the cost of doing business by the developer.

According to the original Herald/Saltwire piece, the maximum penalty under the Heritage Protection Act is $250,000 and under the Special Places Protection Act it’s $100,000. While both the developer and his company are charged, typically charges against one of the entities will be dropped. Even if convicted and the maximum penalty of $350,000 levied (and upheld on appeal), I suspect your analysis is valid.

https://www.saltwire.com/atlantic-ca...nty-100618312/

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

According to the original Herald/Saltwire piece, the maximum penalty under the Heritage Protection Act is $250,000 and under the Special Places Protection Act it’s $100,000. While both the developer and his company are charged, typically charges against one of the entities will be dropped. Even if convicted and the maximum penalty of $350,000 levied (and upheld on appeal), I suspect your analysis is valid.

https://www.saltwire.com/atlantic-ca...nty-100618312/

Thanks for the info!

It would be nice if our heritage protection had more teeth to it, but unfortunately I think this is what we will be stuck with for some time. One would think that simply forbidding municipalities from issuing demolition permits when there is heritage protection on a property would be a good start, but still if it's only a fine it will likely be factored into costs of the project. Perhaps stronger measures - like denying permission to start new projects for a year - would have more meaning, but in the end the municipality would be hurting itself by slowing development.

Too bad developers couldn't just be depended upon to act in good faith, but that sounds like too much to hope for, unfortunately. It's a conundrum...

[OldDartmouthMark]

I think this qualifies to be mentioned in this thread.

I've 'known' the Nova Scotia Textiles building ever since I was a kid, but just from driving by it on our numerous excursions to get out of the city and spend a day in the Annapolis Valley. I first took note of the leaning stack that apparently had been leaning almost since it was constructed due to unplanned settling that gave it a lean, but didn't jeopardize its integrity. The stack was taken down several years ago, though, once it had been determined that it was no longer safe to leave up.

Over the years I've watched it transition from an active factory to an abandoned but salvageable relic, to a potential cool development (which was going to repurpose the old industrial building to condos, retail, and, apparently, a brewery/pub). New windows were installed and it all looked very promising.

Then that didn't work out, and slowly watched it deteriorate all over again, with the windows being broken out, presumably by bored local youth, and finally the partial roof collapse from last winter. At that point, it became somewhat obvious that this building would not survive intact.

Now, at least part of the building will be saved, and an interesting new development will happen. It's still sad to see that the building will not survive in its entirety, though.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...tion-1.6286681

One bonus is learning a little more of its history:

Built in 1881, the old three-storey mill has a lengthy history.

In 1891, the mill was sold to the Dominion Cotton Company, but it was shut down by 1908.

The Nova Scotia Underwear Company purchased the vacant Dominion mill in 1916 and changed their company name to Nova Scotia Textiles in 1921.

By the time the 1990s rolled around, the company operating the mill lost a contract with Roots Canada and a decade later, the company merged with their competitor, Stanfield's in Truro, N.S.

While work at the plant stopped in 2005, there have been several plans to try and develop the site. One company put in new windows on the entire 74,000 square foot property, but that's as far as they got.